Race conservative or risk take?

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Derny Driver
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Race conservative or risk take?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:12 pm

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photo courtesy Mark Gunter

Following on from the Crit racing thread, I have been thinking along the lines of what makes for an attacking mindset in a cycle racer. Fortune usually favours the brave in bike racing and I was wondering why some people will take a risk to try something in a race, and others won’t. Statistically there seems to be a huge number of older guys who have taken up the sport later in life who weren’t cycle racers as kids or teenagers. Part of the fallout from this is the possibility that there is a huge number of people who have spent their risk taking years of youth in other sports, and now enter the cycling game with a more cautionary and sensible approach – which in bike racing is a bad thing.

Young guys are full of bravado and naturally take risks and they do this when they race as well. This is a great photo of a young guy in last Saturday’s Melbourne to Warrnambool. At 270km in length most guys were sensible and conserved their legs, but here we have a kid who is 18, in a small development team in his first Warny, not afraid to get in the first break that goes up the road, not afraid to pull big turns with seasoned NRS veterans, and not afraid to attack them and take all the KOMs along the way. At the finish he was on the podium 3 times, picked up sprint and KOM jerseys and made a name for himself. You’ve gotta admire that.

Sure this kid is a decent rider, I took his brother on an overseas tour in 2009 and he came back and got some great results all over Australia in the next 2-3 years. I think he was 19 or 20 at the time, I remember he asked me on the first day how to say “Attack” in French. That was the only word he needed to know. Similarly, my son is 18 and I told him the other day to keep an eye on a certain rider in a race who is a multiple Australian champion, he replied “Im not worried about him, I can beat him”. I had to bite my tongue because I didn’t share the same opinion but I didn’t say anything, because self-confidence and ego is a great asset in bike racing, and these young guys have got confidence to burn.

Aggression and a positive mindset is important in cycling. Shrinking violets rarely win races. Sitting back doing nothing and hoping the stars and planets will line up for you is a poor strategy. I think as older riders we need to follow the example of the youngsters and not be afraid to have a dig in races. Stupid crazy moves should not be the sole domain of the kids, there is no reason why older folk cant get ridiculous too. Who knows what might happen as a result!

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toolonglegs
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:53 pm

Nice post DD :D ... Only been in one race in the last 4 or 5 months, woefully out of form and fat, but boy it felt good to bury myself for 50 kms in a small break, couldn't walk ( literally ) for the rest of the day due to overdoing it on old muscle / tendons. Got caught 3k's from the finish but better to try and fail than be pack fodder :D .
My 10 year old son gives me a good old talking to if I say I can't win today " Daddy, you will never win saying that! " ( in French of course ) . He dragged me out in pouring cold rain yesterday ... Also reminding me that I always say " it's only water "
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ft_critical
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby ft_critical » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:59 pm

Have no pride.
Don’t think, attack.
Watch the great riders. They don’t attack once, they attack 10 times. They never give up.
Find races you don’t care about and attack.
Don’t follow wheels, be wheels to follow.
Play the long game. Friel said it takes 7 years for you to become a cyclist. Year one is the first time you take out a full year licence and race it. Always be the apprentice.
Be humble. Get dropped, fail, its okay.

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thelittlebattler
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby thelittlebattler » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:10 pm

ft_critical wrote:Friel said it takes 7 years for you to become a cyclist.
6 years until I become one then... Giddy-up break away on Saturday!!!

I only attacked on my own in a race for the first time last week, and it was the best feeling! Before then I was just trying to follow moves that looked like sticking.
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Ross
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby Ross » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:30 am

Yes it's great for riders to take a risk and get in a break but it can be dangerous when some riders risk everything and try and dive through non-existent gaps and bring down half the field just to try and win a club race that isn't even offering any prize money.

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby dalai47 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:32 pm

Agreed Ross! The concept of risk in this topic needs to clarified that DD is referring to risk as 1. taking a gamble and attacking rather than. 2. Taking non existent gaps etc.

I do plenty of 1 but try and avoid 2. As I've discovered personally this year that it takes an older bloke longer to recover from crashes (In my case plated collarbone caused by stupid move by another rider). It comes down to racing is just a hobby I enjoy; we aren't racing for sheep stations and at the end of the day I have others depending on me to be able to go to work on Monday!

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thelittlebattler
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby thelittlebattler » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:19 pm

Yep, for sure. Hope I never go for option 2, plus I'd be too upset with scratching my bike.
Hmmm, option 1 sounds even better as it will probably mean less people around to stuff you up with option 2. Yep, I reckon I'd make a good Cofidis/Netapp/etc. rider with a token breakaway every race. (and little hope of making it to the finish first)
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby dalai47 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:06 pm

thelittlebattler wrote:Hmmm, option 1 sounds even better as it will probably mean less people around to stuff you up with option 2.
I've used that before in the past and was about to when the guy in front of me steered hard onto the duckboard and went down right in front of me... :evil:

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:42 pm

I wanted to go for a Cat 3 FFC license a couple of years ... But option 2 is the only way to race in those 2/3/J races... Curb jumping, cutting corners through the grass, jumping on the motos every chance you get etc etc... Apart from 130km races distances ( for club races ) ... I decided that I liked waking up in one piece most Monday mornings :lol: .

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KGB
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby KGB » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:25 pm

I try to race like this every time. Often I don't even care if I can get away or not, if I can hurt some guys and maybe thin the herd then that's good enough. I've been racing for 20 something years and I learnt very early on: if I'm hurting, there's a very good chance everyone else is too. ATTACK! Hahaha.

I've often watched certain people who do the same thing every time - sit in and wait for the sprint. Sure they do pretty well on paper but they aren't good "racers". I'd rather get blown away in the sprint and roll across the line shattered from a hard, aggressive race than arrive fresh as a daisy after a boring race.
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby thearthurdog » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:03 pm

People who race conservatively don't get how awesome it is to win. I reckon (at a guess) I finished in second place at least 10 times in Elite A grade races when I was a young un'. I'd trade all of them for just one more win.
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby GAV!N » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:18 am

I agree Marcus! It would be pretty boring to race if no one ever attacked and everyone was happy to sit tight for a bunch sprint. Everyone has different racing styles and strengths and weakness's. That's what I love about cycling. It's such a brut sport that requires such strength and fitness, yet it's as tactical as a game of chess. Each race is like a board of players all with different moves and possibilities. There should always be someone willing to make a move. It will rarely stick, but it will often influence the result.

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby Xplora » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:44 pm

I would add that the best way to build the fitness to make those moves stick is by continuing to attack. If you're a power meter user, you would see your TSS would be dramatically higher if you attacked 5 times then contested the sprint, rather than attacking once then sitting in for the sprint. That's money in the Bank of Legs, and it pays interest.

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jules21
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby jules21 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:40 pm

i agree X. i'm a serial attacker in crits, never gets me anywhere but one day i will have enough form and luck to pull it off. road races i am more conservative as i am reluctant to waste the trip all the way out to wherever i had to drive, but i'm working up to that!

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby Xplora » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:11 pm

That's one benefit of being near a bunch of races - I could ride 45-60 minutes and get to 6-7 different major racing venues in Sydney. If I drive, I can get to the rest. Being able to race several times a week helps takes the seriousness of the race away. One reason being young is good, they have less invested in every single bell lap.

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foo on patrol
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:58 pm

Take a risk when nothing to lose be conservative if there is good money up for grabs and you know your opponents. :idea:

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby nailsaslegs » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:20 am

Interesting thread. It will depend upon the race, who's in it, how long it is, what happens during the race, if we need points to win the teams SVT (wink at Derny), there are a lot of variables. I like attacking, something about giving everything I've got to win a race. I've won a state road race through attacking, it wasn't planned just happened then I kept going for another 40kms solo. I've also attacked and lost. You always run the risk of losing if you attack but at least you had a crack. Then again, the guy mentoring me (who just won the National Masters Road Race) says I need patience, conserve, conserve, conserve and then win the sprint. Very few people could out sprint me at the Club.

I get what my wife calls Race Rage, I see a gap, a moment of lapse from the other riders and boom I'll attack. I've made attacks which were never going to work as well. Pick your situation, where the finish is, how the race is unfolding, the wind, road surface, and then attack. I think you can learn when and where to attack. Like everything in racing it's a learning experience.

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby Xplora » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:01 am

Part of Race Rage is the killer instinct that you need to win - that goes for all competition. If you are trying to win, you have to take the opportunity by the throat and part of training ( and regular club races) is practicing how to wrap your hands around the jugular, timing technique etc. so I am not adverse to people having a crack and going for the kill. My struggle is working out when they are killing and when they playing cat and mouse!

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby nailsaslegs » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:43 am

Opposite happened during the 1 lap TT on the weekend. Relied on my power numbers too much, with a leg killer of a climb, and a course that's only 2.1kms long, I should have gone harder. I was too conservative.

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby dalai47 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:19 am

2.1k TT? Should have used RPE and not to power for what amounted to a short Individual Pursuit...

First TT I rode with power it was my slowest time over that course over the years. Now I use it in TT's only as a carrot to up my wattage in case my power drops below a certain figure rather then cap the top end.

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby nailsaslegs » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:07 pm

dalai47 wrote:2.1k TT? Should have used RPE and not to power for what amounted to a short Individual Pursuit...

First TT I rode with power it was my slowest time over that course over the years. Now I use it in TT's only as a carrot to up my wattage in case my power drops below a certain figure rather then cap the top end.
Yeah I completely messed it up. My own fault. I leant a lesson though. That's racing, you can always learn....

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foo on patrol
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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:32 pm

Attacking is only ever going to be good, if you can hold the gap by yourself. :wink: Making the pace hard all race, is another thing altogether! If you have another rider that wants to work with you, you can do the yoyo attack, one goes and the other sites till the bunch pulls them back and the you go again. :twisted:

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby Crawf » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:29 pm

Guilty. I'm one of those mindless attackers, in 80% of the cases I pull off an acceptable result, so I keep doing it. The other reason is pure boredom.
I'll never let some sit-in, unfit 20sec sprint hero get to the line before I do without ripping their legs off before hand, they'll have to earn it.
It all go's in the pain training bank.

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby nailsaslegs » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:19 pm

I really hate people that sit in all race - raced a crit earlier this season, two riders sat on the entire 35mins, didn't take a turn I slowed down to a stop and track stand and still they didn't do a turn, so I made the last 15mins as hard as I could came around the last corner and gave it as much as I had and got 3rd unlucky, 1st, 2nd and 3rd were only a wheel apart. They wondered why I'm not congratulating them for sitting on

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Re: Race conservative or risk take?

Postby ironhanglider » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:19 pm

nailsaslegs wrote:I really hate people that sit in all race - raced a crit earlier this season, two riders sat on the entire 35mins, didn't take a turn I slowed down to a stop and track stand and still they didn't do a turn, so I made the last 15mins as hard as I could came around the last corner and gave it as much as I had and got 3rd unlucky, 1st, 2nd and 3rd were only a wheel apart. They wondered why I'm not congratulating them for sitting on
Did you make the last 15min hard for them or for you?

You need to work on your skills of persuasion, bike handling or patience in order to encourage them to come through. Even though you say that you came to a stop, presumably they did too. Why did you then start moving again? Giving someone a 30min lead out is just asking them to beat you.

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