Race Report Thread

zill
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby zill » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:08 pm

jules21 wrote:
cerb wrote:Jules - I think the issue is that there are a lot of strong people in D grade these days. While they are strong, they're not strong enough to go out in a break with a small group for 30+mins, which means there are a lot of people who want to try their hand at a sprint finish rather than 'risk' a break. Agree that people do chase things down 'just because' in D though... D-grade does tend to be less about tactics and more about brute strength! I seem to remember that only about 1/10 races was won by a break when I was there!
honestly if they were thinking "there goes that jules guy - he's a threat! better snuff him out quickly!" i'd be flattered. but let's face it, they're not thinking that. what chance am I really of lasting 10-15 mins. off the front, solo? i'm just there for a hit-out as much as anything, but when i'm forced back into the bunch and rolling at 150w i'm sitting there fuming, thinking this is the antithesis of what racing is supposed to be - i.e. hard work.
Its racing though. You could plan to save your legs for a hard training session the next day (or even straight after the race) by rolling easily in the race and just put everything in the sprint. If you regularly get placings then move up. That is what I am planning to do as many of my break attempts seem to be getting chased down a lot as well. But I will make sure to have some energy for the sprint even if I have worked hard early.

iaintas
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby iaintas » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:07 pm

CCCC Sandown Crits C grade.

My second race of the season and 6 weeks post a new addition to the family. I was not feeling great at the start after some hard exercise at home earlier in the day, anyway there was a pretty good bunch of about 45 people and a few I had recognised from my earlier race. Anyway we started to roll around and the flurry of single person attacks began pretty early into the headwind but they were all shut down pretty well instantly. I decided to leave my attacking for a bit later in the race (unlike last race where i was off the front for 2 laps within 15min of the start), however this plan was slightly foiled when i accidentally found myself on the front on the third last lap chasing down someone, and despite my elbow flicks no one came around for a good 2/3 lap, so i decided to see if I could shake it up a bit and after "acting a bit tired" and slowing down the bunch going down the back straight I Jumped for a sprint to see if i could shake some hangers on, but it was to no avail however I did catch the guy off the front. I had one last attack coming into the final lap but the bunch was stuck to my wheel like glue and i couldn't shake anyone by this stage. I was done just as we were coming into the back group of corners and this is were things got interesting.........

Anyway about 4 guys attacked into the corner around me, this then drove the whole bunch around me as i was still catching my legs we entered the corner in chaos with people trying to catch wheels and hold lines, it was five riders deep with everyone trying to hit the apex of the corner, then we came into the tight corner, i was on the inside line with three guys outside of me, one of whom was getting pretty close to my right as we entered the corner, then as the apex approached I head a voice of "rider inside", but it was too late i was committed to my line and couldn't move outwards as i was blocked by another rider, I felt a wheel hit the back of my left leg and then the noise of crashing carbon behind me as a few went down, i stayed upright and rolled over the line. Moral of the story don't half wheel a tight inside line if the rider cant see you and has nowhere to go himself.........

Anyway, as cerb was writing I am a bit sick of the defensive racing in C-Grade, we had maybe 5-10 guys actually near the front either chasing or attacking and the rest of the 35 riders sitting on rolling around, bring back road racing and maybe ill take up some MTB racing over summer but these crits are driving me a bit crazy........
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Xplora
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:57 pm

Just a thought regarding defensive riding... do you guys roll tempo up front when someone takes a gap? I've told the bunch that I'm not chasing the late flyer (yelled it out actually at my last Penrith race because they weren't close enough), but the reality is that if you want to stop defensive riding, you might need to commit to holding up the bunch and letting a few guys roll off the front.

This is common practice with teams - you don't chase your own break - but I feel the breakers are my team mates too; I will roll turns with them when I get away one week, so helping them out by holding up the bunch seems to be a great idea to me. I won't be rolling turns with any sprinters, they are hiding in the pack. But is it worth thinking "hey, I'm going to make sure that breakaway works"? They aren't your club mate, or your team mate, but they are certainly your brother in spirit 8) I say this because you mention 2 opportunities late in the race where you could control the destiny of the race, but you were chasing the attack and being the negative racer. You could have "chased" and made sure he got away.

Encourage the breaks, and riders will try to break!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:07 pm

X - yes, I do that. i almost never chase a break when on the front. i'm already doing the work - why should it be my job to do more? racing is a lot more fun when it's tactical. some people don't like tactics though.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:16 pm

You don't need tactics if you can pull 20w per kilogram for 15 seconds :lol:

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby MREJ » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:28 pm

We need a sprinters edition of this thread [emoji15]
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iaintas
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby iaintas » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:54 pm

Totally agree about not chasing and i certainly wasnt going to worry to much about the guy off the front. The thing is im probably one of the stronger tempo riders into the headwind so the whole bunch was just sitting on my wheel despite my lack of interest in the chase, and this is why i tried to jump off the front to shake the group up and maybe form a break of ten or so. The spinters will never move forward in c grade generally and if they were forced to we would probably just roll around at 25km/h.
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Karati » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:57 pm

iaintas wrote:Totally agree about not chasing and i certainly wasnt going to worry to much about the guy off the front. The thing is im probably one of the stronger tempo riders into the headwind so the whole bunch was just sitting on my wheel despite my lack of interest in the chase, and this is why i tried to jump off the front to shake the group up and maybe form a break of ten or so. The spinters will never move forward in c grade generally and if they were forced to we would probably just roll around at 25km/h.
Hate that model of roll around for a half hour then sprint 300m to the line...YAWN!!!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:59 pm

Karati wrote:Hate that model of roll around for a half hour then sprint 300m to the line...YAWN!!!
this is fine for sprinters! that's what they do. what drives me nuts is non-sprinters doing the work for them to chase down breaks. don't blame the sprinters!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby zill » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:21 pm

A lot of the time, I might try to join a breakaway 150m in front but then the whole group goes with me which made me look like the chaser but I had no intention of bringing the whole group with me. Could that be why it seems there are so many people willing to chase in the lower grades (i.e no intention of dragging the whole group with them but more wanting to join the break themselves only)?

In the lower grades, the riders haven't really developed good sudden acceleration skills so easy to follow a chase/break.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:27 pm

If you are going to join a break... sprint to drop the bunch.... and if the bunch is going with you, give up and try again later. You can't just moderately increase your speed... you need to drop the bunch or you are just leading the chase.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:33 pm

if you are attacking the bunch, do it from mid-bunch or at least a few riders back. by the time you hit the front, you need to be carrying 5-10 km/h + speed, or they will just latch onto your rear wheel. if riders have already done that as you move forward - as adrian said - abandon, drift back and try again when ready.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby zill » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:53 pm

jules21 wrote:if you are attacking the bunch, do it from mid-bunch or at least a few riders back. by the time you hit the front, you need to be carrying 5-10 km/h + speed, or they will just latch onto your rear wheel. if riders have already done that as you move forward - as adrian said - abandon, drift back and try again when ready.
So basically I have to stand and pedal to begin the attack/break?

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:09 pm

zill wrote:So basically I have to stand and pedal to begin the attack/break?
in a crit, I usually would. if the bunch are really asleep, you may be able to drift away gently. i had a result recently where the bunch had been surging and chasing a lot in windy conditions - i drifted off the front, not really expecting to get away, and no one chased (except one guy who joined me). success :D

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:12 pm

I was doing the same as you. I had an OK engine but little race smarts. I was on the front already and then just accelerating seated off the front and dragging everyone with me. Best to accelerate from further back in the bunch. That way you are already going 10+kph quicker than the guys on the front as you go past. And give it all you got for a bit until you open a gap, and then go TT mode to catch the break.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:01 pm

iaiantas - I think one of the women from SKCC might have come down in that crash? Lots of dislocations apparently and pelvic scans today... ouch! Sounds like a case of someone diving under though, so not much you could do about it from your description :/


Definately need to attack hard to get away.

Start from 5-10 riders back, pull out wide from the bunch and sprint. Not hard enough that you'll just collapse, but hard enough to pass the guys in front very quickly (as the others say, 5-10kph faster). This is called 'jumping' and stems from the concept of 'getting the jump on someone else'. Jumping forces the people on the front to decide if they will chase you - as it will be a big effort. If you've gone hard/fast enough this will mean they're less likely to want to put in the effort to chase you.

As an idea; my heartrate is typically sitting on about 165bpm mid race... in order to break, i'll put in a sprint at 80-90% of max effort and hit the front of the bunch carrying ~10kph extra speed on them. My heartrate will spike from the effort up to ~195+ and i'll then suffer like hell for the next 3-5mins while my heartrate recovers from the effort. It'll gradually come back down to about 175bpm where it'll flatten out as I try to maintain a solid output required to stay away.

Don't forget you need to be able to recover back to a sustainable HARD effort after you break in order to stay away, so don't blow EVERYTHING when you jump! :)

The other point is that it's pretty futile to go out on a break alone, so you need to try and get people to come with you (or go with others). If you see people positioning for a break, you can get on their wheel and go when they do. Look for people who have just moved themselves up to aroud 5-10th wheel, maybe dropped a couple of gears and/or are looking around, scoping the bunch or having a quiet chat to another rider.

Alternatively, if you do these things, you can try and get the attention of others who are also looking for a break and have them follow you to begin with. If this happens, do an initial hard turn for ~200-300m then flick the others through and get them working... if they followed you, you put out ~30% more effort than they did during the jump - don't blow yourself up inside the first 1km trying to be the hero.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:07 pm

jules21 wrote:don't blame the sprinters!
here! here! I'll do plenty of work to bring a break back or try to bridge across to a break if I think it'll stick.

If you're going to give me a free ride to the finish though, I'm more than happy to take it to a sprint... :)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:55 pm

cerb wrote:As an idea; my heartrate is typically sitting on about 165bpm mid race... in order to break, i'll put in a sprint at 80-90% of max effort and hit the front of the bunch carrying ~10kph extra speed on them. My heartrate will spike from the effort up to ~195+ and i'll then suffer like hell for the next 3-5mins while my heartrate recovers from the effort. It'll gradually come back down to about 175bpm where it'll flatten out as I try to maintain a solid output required to stay away.
this is the bit you really need to train for - if you can't lift your work rate and go anaerobic, then drop it back down to VO2 and maintain a higher pace than bunch speed, you'll get hauled back in. specific training drills - particularly on the ergo or on a velodrome are critical. you can't rely on general fitness.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby zill » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:15 pm

cerb wrote:iaiantas - I think one of the women from SKCC might have come down in that crash? Lots of dislocations apparently and pelvic scans today... ouch! Sounds like a case of someone diving under though, so not much you could do about it from your description :/


Definately need to attack hard to get away.

Start from 5-10 riders back, pull out wide from the bunch and sprint. Not hard enough that you'll just collapse, but hard enough to pass the guys in front very quickly (as the others say, 5-10kph faster). This is called 'jumping' and stems from the concept of 'getting the jump on someone else'. Jumping forces the people on the front to decide if they will chase you - as it will be a big effort. If you've gone hard/fast enough this will mean they're less likely to want to put in the effort to chase you.

As an idea; my heartrate is typically sitting on about 165bpm mid race... in order to break, i'll put in a sprint at 80-90% of max effort and hit the front of the bunch carrying ~10kph extra speed on them. My heartrate will spike from the effort up to ~195+ and i'll then suffer like hell for the next 3-5mins while my heartrate recovers from the effort. It'll gradually come back down to about 175bpm where it'll flatten out as I try to maintain a solid output required to stay away.

Don't forget you need to be able to recover back to a sustainable HARD effort after you break in order to stay away, so don't blow EVERYTHING when you jump! :)

The other point is that it's pretty futile to go out on a break alone, so you need to try and get people to come with you (or go with others). If you see people positioning for a break, you can get on their wheel and go when they do. Look for people who have just moved themselves up to aroud 5-10th wheel, maybe dropped a couple of gears and/or are looking around, scoping the bunch or having a quiet chat to another rider.

Alternatively, if you do these things, you can try and get the attention of others who are also looking for a break and have them follow you to begin with. If this happens, do an initial hard turn for ~200-300m then flick the others through and get them working... if they followed you, you put out ~30% more effort than they did during the jump - don't blow yourself up inside the first 1km trying to be the hero.
So this is where heart rate will give a better indication than power?

In one race, I was finding it very hard to get away from the group while being anaerobic. They really didn't want me to get away! Probably diet plays a large role as well. A few days of eating junk really catches up to you in those situations!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby iaintas » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:57 pm

cerb wrote:iaiantas - I think one of the women from SKCC might have come down in that crash? Lots of dislocations apparently and pelvic scans today... ouch! Sounds like a case of someone diving under though, so not much you could do about it from your description :/


Definately need to attack hard to get away.

Start from 5-10 riders back, pull out wide from the bunch and sprint. Not hard enough that you'll just collapse, but hard enough to pass the guys in front very quickly (as the others say, 5-10kph faster). This is called 'jumping' and stems from the concept of 'getting the jump on someone else'. Jumping forces the people on the front to decide if they will chase you - as it will be a big effort. If you've gone hard/fast enough this will mean they're less likely to want to put in the effort to chase you.

As an idea; my heartrate is typically sitting on about 165bpm mid race... in order to break, i'll put in a sprint at 80-90% of max effort and hit the front of the bunch carrying ~10kph extra speed on them. My heartrate will spike from the effort up to ~195+ and i'll then suffer like hell for the next 3-5mins while my heartrate recovers from the effort. It'll gradually come back down to about 175bpm where it'll flatten out as I try to maintain a solid output required to stay away.

Don't forget you need to be able to recover back to a sustainable HARD effort after you break in order to stay away, so don't blow EVERYTHING when you jump! :)

The other point is that it's pretty futile to go out on a break alone, so you need to try and get people to come with you (or go with others). If you see people positioning for a break, you can get on their wheel and go when they do. Look for people who have just moved themselves up to aroud 5-10th wheel, maybe dropped a couple of gears and/or are looking around, scoping the bunch or having a quiet chat to another rider.

Alternatively, if you do these things, you can try and get the attention of others who are also looking for a break and have them follow you to begin with. If this happens, do an initial hard turn for ~200-300m then flick the others through and get them working... if they followed you, you put out ~30% more effort than they did during the jump - don't blow yourself up inside the first 1km trying to be the hero.
:( sad to hear i felt slightly guilty but the guy on my outside drifted towards me leaving me only one line to go in. in the end its the half wheelers responsibility to drop back and avoid it but i guess the bunch attacking hard into corners is always goimg to end in tears. I was very very lucky not to go down down in a screaming heap too.
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:50 am

Zill - No. Power still gives a better indication as it doesn't lag behind your efforts like HR does. I only quoted HR values as I don't have a powermeter! Despite this, if you know your HR zones well, you can still use HR information to gauge your effort - especially once you are steady state (i.e. maintaining a sustainable pace while in a break or doing a TT).


Iaintas - There are specific situations where you can be at fault, but it doesn't sound like you were! The people trying to move up the inside round the corner are at fault - it's a dangerous move unless everyone is aware of whats going on. It is really only acceptable as a specific 'final laps' tactic in A-Grade... certainly not the lower grades where people are just trying to move up!

People should always be responsible for protecting their own front wheel and for ensuring they can slot into a race line for a corner. If not, they should at least maintain a steady pace next to another rider for a good 20-30m before the corner so it is obvious space needs to be available all the way through the corner.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:41 am

HCC c grade. after a couple of days with no major efforts i was getting paranoid ahead of Tour of Bright, so i jumped back on. wasn't feeling super strong, but marshalling D grade beforehand is a good warmup and i got into the swing of things. i put in a dig towards the end but erred in trying to gap the field up the hill, which i'm too heavy for. i stretched them out a bit but no gap and i was breathless by the top. after that i sat in and waited for the sprint. i'm hopeless with positioning and was about 10-15 riders back by the final corner, which is about where i finished. pretty pleased as i've had a rough week. i think the break stayed away - spewing i couldn't try and join them.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:18 pm

jules21 wrote: this is the bit you really need to train for - if you can't lift your work rate and go anaerobic, then drop it back down to VO2 and maintain a higher pace than bunch speed, you'll get hauled back in. specific training drills - particularly on the ergo or on a velodrome are critical. you can't rely on general fitness.
2/8s: 2mins at 120% then 8mins at 100% +/- a few percent, no rest between. the prepares you for the rigours of establishing the break, then maintaining it. repeat a few times to up the workload of the session.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:41 pm

Here's a hint for you, once you have gotten away. :wink: If you have any spots on the course, be it road or crit where you go out of sight for a short period, put in a burst for the time that the bunch can't see you and roll out of it once they can. You will be surprised at how much damage you can do to them. :idea:

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:50 pm

^^^ I'm sure I've read this advice from you before, and it's ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. The bunch can only chase what it can see. The bunch, like a safari lion, will get tired of chasing and wait for another day to catch dinner if the gazelle is too far away, and you can trick the lion into believing you are faster than you are. Sometimes the lion is strong, sometimes the lion is weak, but if you're a gazelle, you will always be dinner if you don't run away ;)

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