Race Report Thread

[ft_critical]

I am guessing the actual grade names are irrelevant and you missed the chest puff, guys.

Part of me feels that MWCC does itself a disservice with the structure of the grades. If you are a fat sprinter, go to Penrith or Eastern Creek. A hilly race should be hilly and neutralising the climb doesn't make the race easier. It just moves the attacks to the wall and the bottom corner.

So from my memory.... A did ~26kmh up Akuna, A Elite was ~28kmh. Avg speeds were similar after the climb but the attacking in Elite was relentless (I never rode Elite).

Even in A the attacks are always on. I don't know where you get the idea that we loll about until the bottom corner? I have seen nearly every type of attack succeed at WH; solo, break, bridge to break and win, sprint....

[Xplora]

It's OK ft. Don't need to defend the race. The point is that neutralising part of the ride only changes the places people can attack. It doesn't make the ride easier.

[vander]

There is only one A and its elite

Really? Last year there was club A and Elite A. The year before was only A though.

Haha yea its A Elite and A pretender. Was more saying if it isnt Elite it isnt really A grade. By reports A club (now pretender) was quite soft this time around.

I also agree not really a climbers race suits a punchy style rider. Its really a strong mans race, still if you are carrying a bit you can do OK.

@Xplora, it does make it more of a sprinters race neutralising the climb as longer hills are what really hurt sprinters not the shorter stuff they can power over.

@ft you are right re A elite. It is very up and down, times of serious luls and serious attacks. This month we did the first climb at 27km/h (A club 23.5) and from the top to the end we did 37.5ish they did 35.9ish but as I mentioned very up and down.

[Xplora]

The separation of the grades in some respects makes it even harder for people to get a decent race - if I am A grade at Marconi, I should be A grade at West Head. I'll probably suffer because I'm not used to racing hills (or maybe I'll kick butt) but people are decent B graders and dropping to C and that's utter carnage. We got served at Oakville by a couple incredibly strong riders, but at least we were in the top grade and it was our responsibility to work together to bring the attacks back. It is the same every race, the attacks were a bit stronger than normal because of much stronger riders. I don't mind A graders getting a touch up, they like the pain, but we can't have the same thing happening for B and C and D.

[skull]

We ran two A grades in my previous club on occasions. That was due to Gen-Wealth (now Avanti) turning up to race randomly, being based in Tasmania. So there would be an A grade which would have the NRS riders and anyone that was keen, the usual A grade then the other grades as normal.

[jules21]

We ran two A grades in my previous club on occasions. That was due to Gen-Wealth (now Avanti) turning up to race randomly, being based in Tasmania. So there would be an A grade which would have the NRS riders and anyone that was keen, the usual A grade then the other grades as normal.

we've had Drapac and other elite teams/riders turn up at some of our races. we also run 2 A grades but they start together and sort themselves out

[rogan]

X - because it is a proper road race they get heavy hitters there. Not just quality NRS riders, one time Mark Renshaw turned up...

Even if Renshaw behaves himself (as he did that day, I understand), rolling around in A grade at Marconi or Heffron or the Waratahs is not preparation for West Head A Grade. Grades differ between clubs and races. If MWCC can get a solid core of riders at the NRS high-amateur and semi-pro level, those guys need their own grade. It's not a comparable situation to other clubs. It means that the good but not great club-level A Graders are probably not going to be in the top grade at West Head. As this suggests, many riders in A Grade elsewhere may well find they belong in B Grade at West Head. I have seen days where guys racing A Grade elsewhere get dropped from B Grade at the West Head race. And B Graders elsewhere aren't "dropping" to C. B Graders elsewhere are probably C Grade standard at West Head.

Also, they've fiddled with racing up the hill a bit, but ATM the only "hubbard" races are D Grade and the one of the two C Grades. Everyone else races up the hill.

[vander]

I wouldnt say I am any better than a good club A grader (I dont feel I am ready for NRS yet) but I managed to spend almost a lap of the front of A elite and still finish in the front bunch and I have been active before. I am not a lightweight climber either. I think a lot of people build it up in their head to be harder than it is. Just need to be ready and attentive for the punchy bits, if you are a bit weaker dont try silly moves follow the right wheels.

[Xplora]

Dunno. My old sport was squash, and you could stick your club's best player in the highest team in the top spot, regardless of the brutality that this created. Internationals, state grade... end of the day, it's a training exercise for the top level rider, and the other riders need to be prepared to work together to work against this. I got dropped on the weekend because I attempted to bridge a small gap when I was already redlining, really needed the group to pull some turns to keep the chase on... but that's not how sprinters race

As vander said, you are going to be punished severely for following the wrong wheels up a climb. But all good dialogue.

[rogan]

I wouldnt say I am any better than a good club A grader (I dont feel I am ready for NRS yet) but I managed to spend almost a lap of the front of A elite and still finish in the front bunch and I have been active before. I am not a lightweight climber either. I think a lot of people build it up in their head to be harder than it is. Just need to be ready and attentive for the punchy bits, if you are a bit weaker dont try silly moves follow the right wheels.

I don't doubt what you say. But earlier you say the bunch averaged 27 up that first hill. 27?

https://www.strava.com/segments/1621758?filter=overall Filter for This Year.

Yep, the top 17, all from last Sunday. So if you're in my weight range your proposition is pump out 9 minutes at 380 W at no more than threshold right at the start of the race, ie. that can't be an all out effort, coz there's 2 hours to go... maybe guys do build it up to be harder than it is. But I, for one, can't do that. There'd be guys in A Grade at Marconi who'd be dropped in the first km.

As I say, I don't doubt you when you say you don't feel ready for NRS. But that is a high standard there.

[ft_critical]

I wouldnt say I am any better than a good club A grader

You are Vander.

And you must realise how well you are riding now compared to before.

[vander]

[quote="rogan"
I don't doubt what you say. But earlier you say the bunch averaged 27 up that first hill. 27?

https://www.strava.com/segments/1621758?filter=overall Filter for This Year.

Yep, the top 17, all from last Sunday. So if you're in my weight range your proposition is pump out 9 minutes at 380 W at no more than threshold right at the start of the race, ie. that can't be an all out effort, coz there's 2 hours to go... maybe guys do build it up to be harder than it is. But I, for one, can't do that. There'd be guys in A Grade at Marconi who'd be dropped in the first km.[/quote]
There was 6 or so dropped up the first club (one was from our team who has been doing Marconi A grade). Road races are up and down doesnt have to be threshold you can go harder at the start then it eases up.

[Xplora]

I survived 335w NP for 15 min, I can see 380w being realistic for stronger riders but that has to be a tactic... You are softening up the bunch big time with that pace!

[toolonglegs]

Looks pretty solid to me! ... 6w per kg for 5 minutes plus on the climb / 4.2w per kg average for 90 minutes

[rogan]

I survived 335w NP for 15 min, I can see 380w being realistic for stronger riders but that has to be a tactic... You are softening up the bunch big time with that pace!

NP is completely different. When strava gives power for a segment, such as those 17 riders on that segment, that's just average power, not NP or WAP. My NP for the race on Sunday was 302W, for over an hour and a half, according to the Garmin (Strava says WAP is 260 - ?).

Actually putting out 380W as an average for that segment is a very different proposition and is probably an NP of around 420+W for that 9 minutes, esp as the first 500m is flat, and it appears there were attacks happening, not just a steady ride up at 27 km/h. It is realistic for stronger riders, of course it is. Riders who are much stronger than me, and much stronger (up hills) than A Graders who are good at crits elsewhere.

Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. A Grade at the West Head Race is stronger than A Grades at other events around Sydney. The tough course and very limited alternatives for proper road racing in Sydney, attracts strong riders. It means that some (not all) riders justifiably ride a lower grade at that event than they would elsewhere.

[Row-D]

The way I look at West Head is similar to state open grading. I ride club A, but B in state opens. Similarly, I ride in the 2nd grade at West Head (don't really care if you call that A Club or B). If I was racing in Elite and the hammer really went down on that first climb I'm sure I'd be out the back.

[jules21]

spoke to a guy a couple of weekends ago who was in a winning break. reckons he had to hand the win to his breakaway companion, as part of a deal to gain agreement of said companion/race winner to work with him. the guy was happy to sit on, as he was part of a team with others in the bunch and wasn't fussed if caught. he didn't sound thrilled. pretty unnecessary in low stakes club racing if you ask me. (please don't speculate on race/team/riders)

[Xplora]

Negotiation is part of the deal. Do you want second place or no place?

[jules21]

Negotiation is part of the deal. Do you want second place or no place?

from his perspective, 2nd place is the better option. from the other rider's perspective, i personally would feel pretty bad about negotiating a victory in a nothing race. incidentally i had someone offer me the win in a break recently, very generous of them, i refused. where's the satisfaction in being gifted a win?

[lock_]

That's pretty average Jules. I generally finish last in any breakaway, but that's not a 'deal' I'd be accepting. In fact I'd probably spend the remainder of the season doing my best to chase down that rider for even suggesting it. Now you've reminded me of that grudge I have against a team that would continually block any chase attempts in the crits over summer . And then there's that guy that just wanted to sit at 4th-5th wheel without ever doing a turn up front...

Of course I'm fine with people 'going the chop', leading out a mate, sitting on if you've got someone up the road, etc. Some of the finer etiquettes are lost on some people.

[jules21]

Of course I'm fine with people 'going the chop', leading out a mate, sitting on if you've got someone up the road, etc. Some of the finer etiquettes are lost on some people.

these are fine with me. going the chop ensure you maximise your chances by gaining cooperation of others. it's about going faster and trying to win. but negotiating with someone to lose is unsportsmanlike, i reckon.

[Xplora]

Very hard to say how this goes. I have ensured two break buddies have safely exited the final corner and we have lined up forthe drag race just to acknowledge that I do not deserve the win any more than them. I have been fortunate that I have won the sprint but that's the thing... that's me. I know that breaks are won by groups, not individuals. I prefer to share the opportunity for winning. Of course I will still try and win.

[toppity]

Of course I'm fine with people 'going the chop', leading out a mate, sitting on if you've got someone up the road, etc. Some of the finer etiquettes are lost on some people.

these are fine with me. going the chop ensure you maximise your chances by gaining cooperation of others. it's about going faster and trying to win. but negotiating with someone to lose is unsportsmanlike, i reckon.

I don't get in many breaks, but when I have we have never negotiated anything. Stuff that, I don't want to be gifted anything. The only time I have ever negotiated anything was when I was a young bloke a random bloke offered to lead me out in a CCCC "C" grade crit' 20 years ago. He was next to useless, leaving me for the entire Dunlop road straight by myself. But he still found me after the race for his chop. That's the way it goes.

[Andrew28]

I am new to racing - can somebody explain what going the chop is?

[Xplora]

Oakville A grade

Weird race. Big B grade combined with only 5 in A. We were instructed to stay together for 3 of the 6 12 minute laps... So as soon as we touched the line A grade sprinted up the hill and I set PB power for the entire 1 to 3 minute period. It blew apart the bunch and I popped. Too strong for me. Was so cooked I missed the B grade first bunch and did a couple laps with 3 B graders. It was a good idea but the sheer horsepower in A stuffed up the B graders race. While I got smashed, it was encouraging that I held onto some of the strongest climbers in our area for a little bit, and I picked the move. Can't win them all, they say!