Race Report Thread

vosadrian
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:53 pm

It probably doesn't help that NSW is not friendly for arranging road races. So difficult to do interesting races in NSW that attract talent when stuck to the same old courses.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:25 pm

Xplora wrote:Cycling is a very very hard sport to get results, and I'm not sure that putting NRS riders against club A graders every week is a particularly productive thing for racing. The problem is that the level of training to do anything remotely interesting in the higher grades without extreme levels of talent is prohibitive. But maybe I'm becoming "post-racing"... I feel that a person should be reasonably competitive if they commit to 2-3 training sessions a week in a particular grade, and if they get promoted, then they should be able to continue with a similar level of training.
No one at my club seems to worry about racing 'higher level' racers, myself included. Instead of looking for wins, you just start looking for improvements in yourself, maintaining good fitness, smashing your mates and perhaps some top 5 finishes.

I don't think it's a fair assumption to make that you should be able to continue with the effort required for a lower grade and expect to be competetive in a higher grade. By definition, the higher grade should be harder and therefore, you should have to work harder to be competetive in it. In D-Grade, I used to go for a few casual rides (as long as the weather is ok), then just turn up to races and be competetive. Now in A-Grade, I'm on the trainer doing specific intervals 2-3 times a week and it's only just enough. Most people I race against spend 10+ hours training per week...

Once you get to A-Grade, there is no higher grade for local crits (with the exception of the annual SuperCrit, where they have an elite grade), so you will always end up racing people who train more and are naturally better than you. Unfotunately, thats how the cookie crumbles!

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Xplora
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:22 pm

I know plenty of guys doing 15 hours a week with lots of trainer work and 300+kms who can't do anything except hold on in A grade. Top 5 finishes? Tell him he's dreaming.

There is an enormous gap between the NRS/top A grade guys and the plebs making up numbers in A grade in western Sydney. Truly enormous. 15 hours a week on the bike doesn't bridge that gap.

That's my point - the difference between the grades should be tactical and experience, but it seems to be tactics and genetic superiority despite training.

I was able to finish top 10 in A grade Vets when I had 600kms a week in the legs, but I also couldn't get into the sprint finish. I'm a slender, reasonably twitchy bloke who has ridden for 8 years...

The sport is definitely going to struggle to keep a guy like me interested - most of the growth is Masters. These people have jobs and lives. 20 hours of training is retarded for club racing... I can't think of any other pursuit that 20 hours of hard training doesn't translate to professional level involvement.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:15 pm

My $0.02 on grading:

I think too many people move to A too soon if they should at all. Not everyone has the same genetic capability to do the same performance with the same effort. Some people can far exceed others with much less effort.... be it racing smarts/tactics or fitness/strength. I don't see why growth has to be moving up to the highest grade. The highest grade should be for the people who are the best be it genetically superior or harder working. I think half A grade should really be in B grade... and probably the same for B going down to C. A grade to some is a status thing more than a recognition of their ability to compete for real results.

I think the grading is meant to be a measure of your racing ability regardless of how you achieve it. If you can race in A with a realistic chance of getting a result then great (by result I mean impacting the race either for yourself or others). If not you are probably in too higher grade.

Measures of growth can be done in other ways... achieving "results" in different ways be it tactically or fitness/strength.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby rogan » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:29 pm

Xplora wrote:I know plenty of guys doing 15 hours a week with lots of trainer work and 300+kms who can't do anything except hold on in A grade. Top 5 finishes? Tell him he's dreaming.

There is an enormous gap between the NRS/top A grade guys and the plebs making up numbers in A grade in western Sydney. Truly enormous. 15 hours a week on the bike doesn't bridge that gap.

That's my point - the difference between the grades should be tactical and experience, but it seems to be tactics and genetic superiority despite training.

I was able to finish top 10 in A grade Vets when I had 600kms a week in the legs, but I also couldn't get into the sprint finish. I'm a slender, reasonably twitchy bloke who has ridden for 8 years...

The sport is definitely going to struggle to keep a guy like me interested - most of the growth is Masters. These people have jobs and lives. 20 hours of training is retarded for club racing... I can't think of any other pursuit that 20 hours of hard training doesn't translate to professional level involvement.
300 km a week can well be enough. Issue is, are you willing to do maybe 2-3 hours out of that 10 doing intervals at some withering intensity? Being good at bike racing, below the elite levels, is not at all about volume of training miles - in blunt terms, it's about increasing your anaerobic threshold. Actually winning A Grade races, unless something odd happens, requires getting in a break or being able to sprint.

Yes, talent definitely helps, as with any field of human endeavour. But anyone able to efficiently use 20 hours per week of training, on doing it properly, would be much, much better.
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:47 pm

We're probably fairly off topic here, but the reality is that hitting 2-3 hours of session a week above threshold (VO2Max sessions, heavy weights, track bike sessions) excluding the warmups, is going to be the limit of what most people are physically capable of achieving! My recent training for the club champs was basically that 2-3 hour paradigm, and no joke it nearly destroyed me. To the point where I am being a bit careful about taking on kickr training blocks again.

It does dramatically change your attitude to cycling training though... 8)

On the subject of grading, we shall see what the intended "reserve grade" at Marconi does. Basically stripping out all the pretenders in A, and all the sandbaggers from B, to create a level playing field. Hopefully it will promote more adventurous racing like we see in A grade, as the penalty for failure will be less severe for the lower grades.

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ItsDank
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby ItsDank » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:28 am

Twilight Crit B Grade Sutherland Shire CC 21.10.2016


Fast becoming one of my favourite crits in Sydney, the Friday night Twilight crit is on a nice smooth circuit with what could only be described as a brutal climb that you do no less than 14 times. This race was one for the break and they managed to keep a fairly large 35 second gap on the main group for almost the entire race which is fairly impressive.

After much fun messing about, I eventually landed myself in forth place.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:09 am

8)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:54 am

CCCC vs SKCC Cup Race 1 (AT) Glenvale
42km, avg. 41.8kph, approx. 60 starters.

Raced CCCC's Glenvale crit on Sunday as part of the SKCC vs CCCC interclub shield. I'm in B-Grade there, so makes it a bit more fun as I get to be the hammer more than the nail for once. Unfotuntaely, there was a really big hammer in the race who rode away with two others, then went on solo for the last 10-15mins to win the day.

He also had two team mates blocking and disrupting the chase from the bunch, which was pretty frustrating, but the bunch wouldn't work together anyway. I threw in a pile of attacks, tried to organise a chase and also tried to organise a couple of breaks, but got shut down every time by his (also strong) team mates. It was windy, which didn't help, but people seemed content to sit around and wait for a bunch sprint for 4th position...

In the end, the gap was so big that it wasn't worth trying to conserve anything and I just went to the front and unloaded with about 5 mins to go, fading with 2 laps to go, but recovered for the bell lap and still managed to come through in 10th position.

Bit frustrating, but still a good hit out and plenty of fun!

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foo on patrol
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:02 am

8)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby filipw » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:11 pm

Unfortunately my long holiday has come to an end and I lined up with my Kooragang HVCC friends on Sunday, to do 5 laps (C grade) for my first race back. Normally by now I have a couple of local crits under the belt, but unfortunately, the central coast police found it necessary to deny us racing at our normal crit. Apparently it’s too dangerous for cyclists to race in a deserted industry park (after 6pm on Friday) and they don’t support road closures as it would have a negative impact on the businesses (they are closed at that time of day and we have plenty of lollipop men). Complete lack of common sense shown here by some bureaucrat –to put it mildly, as I can’t type what I really would like to type. :evil:
Anyway, I was a bit nervous lining up at Kooragang where I find my fellow competitors well oiled and rearing to go. And go we did, within the first 100meters we had an attack and some reactions later it seemed dangerous enough. 4 away, the calibre of the guys good enough for the bunch to chase them down, after that there were a flurry of break attempts with the bunch reacting . Before the race, I’ve told myself to just hang in the bunch and get my race legs back, but soon enough I found myself chasing and doing turns. 2 laps later, the red fog in front of my eyes cleared and I drifted back towards the back of the group. The attacks continued and at one time the bunch split in 2, but everything came back together. The race was contested in a sprint. 39.3 km/h average over 55’. Hard and fast racing in my book. Very happy with my performance and soon I’ll be mixing it up again at the pointy end of the race.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:29 pm

filipw wrote: Complete lack of common sense shown here by some bureaucrat –to put it mildly, as I can’t type what I really would like to type. :evil: .
Get them to put their reasons in writing, then take it to the Ombudsman. Really smash it up the food chain. If they are banning you, you have no relationship with the cops to protect so just make life hard for them. There is really no justification as there is no impact, and I'm guessing you're done within 45 minutes? There are no negatives for businesses. So dispute it, and make them pin their prejudices on their sleeve. Looks great on a resume... "cannot make sound judgements based on fairness"

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:50 pm

vosadrian wrote:My $0.02 on grading:

I think too many people move to A too soon if they should at all...... I think half A grade should really be in B grade... and probably the same for B going down to C. A grade to some is a status thing more than a recognition of their ability to compete for real results.
aint that the truth !!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby g-boaf » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:20 am

filipw wrote:. Normally by now I have a couple of local crits under the belt, but unfortunately, the central coast police found it necessary to deny us racing at our normal crit. Apparently it’s too dangerous for cyclists to race in a deserted industry park (after 6pm on Friday) and they don’t support road closures as it would have a negative impact on the businesses (they are closed at that time of day and we have plenty of lollipop men). Complete lack of common sense shown here by some bureaucrat –to put it mildly, as I can’t type what I really would like to type. :evil:
This is just rubbish, I mean really.. Absolutely ridiculous. :( It needs to be put in writing and then you can pin them down on it. Go up the chain of command on these things and get the minister's office involved as well.

It is late in the evening in a quiet business park.

I'd also go and get the endorsement of the local businesses too in writing, get them all on board - remove any potential barriers.

And you've got traffic controllers, so what's the problem? If you've got all of that done, then the objection from the local Police looks far more unreasonable.

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ItsDank
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby ItsDank » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:37 am

LACC B Grade Newington Armoury Crit Thursday 4.11.2016


First time doing this crit and I actually really like the course. There's a pretty technical corner which is followed by about 15 seconds of max effort and after 22 laps it really does start to take its toll. Around 15 to 20 riders got dropped and the average speed was kept high throughout. I tried a breakaway but was brought back after only one lap and I held my last match to sprint for third place.

All in all, a really nice crit course and I'll be back as it's less of a pain to get to this one after work. Certainly much easier than making it to Sutherland.

Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/764406190/overview

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:19 pm

^^ 8) ^^

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:10 am

SKCC A-Grade "BOLTSY" Sprint Crit
47km, avg.46.3kph

Another windy Sunday for racing... Yesterday was the first annual Boltsy Memorial Criterium for a well regarded club member recently passed. It was combined with a sprint competition including three intermediate sprints and the finish earning points for an additional prize purse to the sprint winner. Extra bonus was that Gerro is in town and came down for a race with us!

Aware that there would probably be a sprint inside the first 10-15mins, I was keen to stay up the front and either get in a move or help control anything that did get away. Only a few laps into the race, two of the usual suspects from Pats Veg went flying off the front at a blistering pace. I was third wheel and the 4-5 of us near the front jumped on it and dialled the pace up to try and shut it down, but without much success. A number of people tried to bridge, but failed, with a couple of others making it across the gap.

With the break further strengthened, they held their gap well and a few riders the likes of me riding on the front weren't going to bring them back... The break was established and people basically understood the first 1-2 sprints were gone and the pace came off a little. I kept rolling turns on the front to keep the pace going, but the gap was steady and even growing at the times as people burned out, or attackes went and were subsequently neutralised.

A team mate went past on the attack with two others, so I soft pedalled the front of the bunch for about 3/4 a lap with about 5-6 going past me to join on. I tried to block the view of them going away, but the rest of the bunch weren't going to let another ~10 people go across to the break so I just pulled into the charging paceline coming past me again.

At about the 25min mark, I could feel fatigue setting into my legs so I went back in the bunch to recover a bit and have a gel. As I started to move back up, Gerro decided to jump on the front and help bring the break back! He sat on the front for 6-7 laps at ~47-49kph avg., basically motor pacing us along... Didn't even look like a hard effort for him...!

This effort alone was basically responsible for bringing the break back in time for the third sprint, which was taken by someone in the bunch (I was too far back to see who). Off the back of the sprint, a bunch of 8 went off the front including the two Pats Vegs guys again and Gerro. They extended their lead as the bunch started to shatter with people steadily going out the back and splits forming all over the place. I rolled turns on the front again trying to help shut down the break and then still hold the wheel in front afterward.

At two laps to go, the break still had ~150-200m on us and they were going to stay clear. I put in a few little digs through until the bell lap when my legs were cooked and I rolled back in the bunch down the back straight and finished in the remaining bunch.

Pats Veg took the win from a solo move in the closing laps, Gerro second and the other Pats Veg rider third.


Despite the lack of any results, I felt I had a pretty good race. Fitness has finally improved to where I can pull hard turns and still pull back into the top 10 riders and recover in time to be hitting the front again. I've been purposefully riding at/on the front to force my fitness up, but as it is really starting to improve I'll start to race a bit 'smarter' in the next few of weeks to try and get into the 'right' moves or hold out for the bunch kick to see how I fare...

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby ItsDank » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:27 am


MS Gong Crit State Div 3 2016

The MS Gong Crit in Wollongong is a race that stops the nation! Well maybe not the nation, it probably stops a few keen cyclists who tuned into SBS last Saturday.

Fast paced with one technical corner and a downhill headwind straight. This was always going to be one for the sprinters as every breakaway attempt was brought back within minutes. I was having a very decent race and felt I had plenty in the tank and great positioning coming up to the last lap but unfortunately it wasn't to be as I was caught in a crash.

Racing is racing though and there wasn't much I could do about the incident; I'll be back next year to contest :) If you enjoyed the video, please hit that like and subscribe.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby trek52 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:35 am

Xplora - I know someone that can win A grade crits, get the odd state and national masters medal and maybe can make the top 5 in most races on less than 300km a week

ItsDank - What happened to you 1600w plus numbers, you should be smoking these guys you are racing

On the whole A grade thing, i have ridden fast crits that have been really easy and slow ones that only 5 finished. I would much rather have a group of NRS guys in a race with a high pace than just 3 of them that I have to chase....

Oh and on Penrith, when you have Ben and Peter there you dont need any others.....

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:54 pm

trek52 wrote:On the whole A grade thing, i have ridden fast crits that have been really easy and slow ones that only 5 finished. I would much rather have a group of NRS guys in a race with a high pace than just 3 of them that I have to chase....
100% agree on this. If you're going to have high level riders in your race, the more of them, the better - as they will inevitably have to work to chase each other, relieving some of the workload from the weaker local riders (like me!). I reckon sitting in the bunch at 47kph is about the same effort as rolling hard turns at 43-44kph.

Also, big bunches are easier than small bunches. There are a lot of places to sit in and hide in a big bunch. If you're only racing 10-12 other people, everyone needs to be strong and it's up to every individual to make their own moves. Unfortunately, this means that if someone is much stronger than the rest, they just win...!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby ItsDank » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:07 pm

trek52 wrote: ItsDank - What happened to you 1600w plus numbers, you should be smoking these guys you are racing

....
I'm a special kind of normal where I struggle to output my peak figures after an hour at threshold :)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:28 am

trek52 wrote:Xplora - I know someone that can win A grade crits, get the odd state and national masters medal and maybe can make the top 5 in most races on less than 300km a week
I think this is the difficulty... cycling "as a competitive sport" has a real struggle where they attract older riders - CNSW has just accepted that MAMIL is where the growth is, not juniors - and these riders vary tremendously in their ability to train and simply be good at racing, but they get thrown amongst absolute titans like our sub300km friend you speak of. If you have grown up racing a bike, the sixth sense of competition is much easier to tap.

I used to be able to do it but as I got more well known and ran up the grades, my rude awakening came once I hit A grade because the nature of the talent changes! I guess it comes down to this point - how many riders are talented enough to ride 250 a week and place at Nationals? Sure, a couple will. There are always outliers. But if you want to race, and get results once in a while at club level, you shouldn't need to be in the sport for 20 years, or ride 500 a week. Maybe I'm just a hacker, fortunately I don't care too much anymore, but I do have concerns for the sport because we need the hotheads to "take it to the track" just like we need revheads to keep their thrashing on SMSP. You don't want these hoons on your coffee ride. Putting big strong guys on the cycleway at 70kmh isn't ideal, but they won't stick with racing if it's clear that they need to be semiprofessional to even hold a wheel in A.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby fat and old » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:09 am

Xplora wrote:
I guess it comes down to this point - how many riders are talented enough to ride 250 a week and place at Nationals? Sure, a couple will. There are always outliers. But if you want to race, and get results once in a while at club level, you shouldn't need to be in the sport for 20 years, or ride 500 a week.
Why? It's just the way of the world....there's always a few people extraordinarily good at what they do. If you're going to have NRS riders and the odd pro such as Gerrans show up and race the same grades, then it's a done deal. if you limit A Grade to only those blokes who can compete at that level, you take away an aspiration for many..."I'm in the same race as Gerro" (I'm not belittling this at all, competition always gets the best out of a competitor)...

The only answer to your concerns I can see is for a rider to be a good B grader, and stay there?

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:16 am

Xplora wrote:
trek52 wrote:Xplora - I know someone that can win A grade crits, get the odd state and national masters medal and maybe can make the top 5 in most races on less than 300km a week
I think this is the difficulty... cycling "as a competitive sport" has a real struggle where they attract older riders - CNSW has just accepted that MAMIL is where the growth is, not juniors - and these riders vary tremendously in their ability to train and simply be good at racing, but they get thrown amongst absolute titans like our sub300km friend you speak of. If you have grown up racing a bike, the sixth sense of competition is much easier to tap.

I used to be able to do it but as I got more well known and ran up the grades, my rude awakening came once I hit A grade because the nature of the talent changes! I guess it comes down to this point - how many riders are talented enough to ride 250 a week and place at Nationals? Sure, a couple will. There are always outliers. But if you want to race, and get results once in a while at club level, you shouldn't need to be in the sport for 20 years, or ride 500 a week. Maybe I'm just a hacker, fortunately I don't care too much anymore, but I do have concerns for the sport because we need the hotheads to "take it to the track" just like we need revheads to keep their thrashing on SMSP. You don't want these hoons on your coffee ride. Putting big strong guys on the cycleway at 70kmh isn't ideal, but they won't stick with racing if it's clear that they need to be semiprofessional to even hold a wheel in A.
See this is where I disagree.... Why do they need to be in A? Why not just stay in B.... or C? The way I see it is that club racing is for all levels. That is why we have graded racing. If you can't keep up with the guys in A, go to the level where you can race competitively. Why should a 40 year old who just picked up the sport think he should be competitive with a 25 year old who has been racing for 10 years? I think the problem is with the culture of too many people wanting to be in A just so they can say they are in A. If you pander to this attitude, what is the solution? Strong experienced riders are not allowed to race at club races anymore for fear of upsetting the mamils who want to podium A?

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby trek52 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:24 am

Mate i get what you are saying but even for the top end of A grade guys there is always someone better just around the corner. Me in NRS these days would be a bottom 20 result, I just cant do the training and i am getting to old to compete with the young kids. Same for the NRS guys going to Conti races and the same for the conti guys to pro tour. there is always a grade better

Its the same step for me to NRS that it is for you guys to the front of A grade, sometimes there is a point where you say I am happy where I am, realize in the scheme of it we are all pretty average riders and enjoy racing. if you want to try and hang on in A do it, if you want to stay in B then do it. Just race and have fun.

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