Race Report Thread

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Xplora
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:04 am

I do the same thing - although I relied on my breakaways to be my 2x20s too much last summer :lol: I think the biggest thing is to develop tactics and learn your body for these C priority races; you mention a number of races where you've resolved that you can't win so you start attacking in the bell lap of 4. It seems to "me" that if you were treating them as C priority training races that you should have made a friend on the line and arranged to attack on the second lap and aim to share coffee cash getting them onto the podium, so you don't have the pressure of getting results yourself. You get a great ride in, you learn more about yourself, and you get better at teamwork which is hard when you're trying to outbludge the other blokes waiting for a sprint. You can nail yourself until halfway through the bell lap and then just fade away getting your man to the line. I've helped a mate like this before, it's much easier to put down 1000W for 15 seconds in the middle of the race to bridge a gap than the end. You'll get a lot more data from your Vectors like this as well.

TLDR.

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jules21
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:23 am

good ideas X. i might take you up on that.

TLDR? not sure what you mean there, though..

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Xplora
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:27 pm

Too Long. Didn't Read.
I've concluded I say WAY too much in every post. I'm accepting this just won't change, better to acknowledge and treat it as the joke it is. :lol:

I'm also better at theory than practice ;)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:28 pm

i know what it stands for, i didn't understand what you meant though. that's good advice. i enjoy descriptive posts - you've got to add a bit of flavour ;)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby macca33 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:07 pm

Rode a Hcap at Darnum Saturday (5 x 8km laps) starting on limit with three others, which was down to two others on the first pinch - undulating circuit with two sharp pinches that take a bit out of you! Rolled around for 4 laps before being caught by the rest, then rolled in to the finish with the bunch. Happy as it was the first time I'd felt almost 100% for two to three weeks.

Sunday, SMCC 75Km scratch race at Cora Lynn in D-Grade - as per usual, only 5 or so of the 15-20 starters were interested in rolling turns for the race. Coming up to the last corner, I was on the front - again - when a bloke jumped off my wheel and broke away, getting out to about 50m through the corner. I stood up and started to chase, then decided that I'd let someone else have a go......oddly enough, nobody did. So, I decided to stretch the legs a little over the last 3Km into the wind and dropped all but 4 others. I did ensure that I didn't close the gap too much on the bloke out front, he deserved the win and had done plenty of work himself - and sure enough, with 250m to go, the group all rode off my wheel and into a sprint, including one bloke who didn't do a turn all day, leaving me in their wake. No regrets here - I do it for the enjoyment (???) and take pleasure in observing these people in the throes of their sporting endeavours. Though, I do get a laugh at seeing how some people tick.....

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:26 am

I've seen a lot of reports complaining of people sitting on and not doing any work lately and it both perplexes and frustrates me a little bit... it is a RACE! The aim of a race is to win and therefore I would think that employing tactics which help you do this should be the goal, not impressing those around you?

IMO, anyone can pull some hard turns on the the front of the bunch and then pop before the finish line or finish mid bunch for the umpteenth time. The real nous is knowing when to burn your matches and how many matches to burn... If there are a few people sitting on the front doing turns and your bunch is maintaining/increasing your gap or shutting down the bunch ahead, then there is no driver for others in the bunch to pull turns as well, thereby helping everyone else in the bunch.

I'm not suggesting you drag someone who is just sitting on all the way to the finish. If someone is sitting on, then the people who are working, should be looking to change tactics and get rid of this person to ensure they don't give them a free ride to the finish! There are many ways to counter someone sitting on, which may need a little bit of teamwork, but nothing a few words with your fellow work-mates can't achieve.

In the lower grades, there aren't many teams at work so it is difficult sometimes to organise a bunch and to get people working together to stay away from that scratch bunch bearing down on you. At the same time though, you still need to be aware that some people in your limit bunch will happily wait for the +5/+9min bunch etc. to catch so they are in a larger group and don't have to work as hard. It's all about the tactics of each individual!

Everyone races with different tactics based on their perceived strengths and there are many ways a race can unfold. I'd suggest that instead of lamenting the tactics others use to beat you, everyone should be looking to evolve their own tactics along the way. Every race should be a learning experience!

The unfortunate thing about racing is that there aren't (normally) prizes for riding strong and dragging the bunch for 60km into a headwind... it's about the first person to cross the line - and I believe your own race plan and in-race tactics should reflect this.

Happy racing!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:38 am

cerb, lots of people are used to bunch riding where a turn is a badge of honour; I agree though, a race is a race is a race is a race, and it's usually fairly easy to shake a sucker if you want to. Pulling over to the side of the road and stopping has to be part of your armoury if you really don't have the weapons to fight the battle with them though. They can't dodge turns if you aren't moving. Does this ruin your race? Yep. Does seeing a sucker jump off your wheel to take your coffee cash ruin your race even more? I'd hazard a guess yes. At the worst, just make a break, and let the suckers watch you disappear while they fight over who will do the turns.

I do wonder how often the racing gets done though by those complaining about suckers... reputations can be hard to build, and if you are a good wheel to break with, or a hardman ready to do the work, this is usually respected. But you need to race to build the rep. (I'm guessing I'll have been forgotten when I finally pin on a number again after 3 months away)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:10 am

Absolutely! I agree that there is a lot to earning your reputation as someone who is worth trying to go with if they go for a break. 'Hard-men' are respected, but they don't usually win races and are really only useful on a team.

Personally, I try and sit on and conserve as much as possible, but when I properly go for a break, I put in 110% with my breakaway buddies to try and pull it off. However, as breakaway's aren't typically my best race option, I often sit on and watch other people do work for me to bring back breaks. If no-one else is working, then yes, I'll go to the front and work hard to bring a break back, but in general there are almost always other people willing to do this who are riding different tactics to my own. Either that, or they just don't have the composure/ability/self-confidence to read the race and they figure they are somehow winning by dragging the bunch along...?!

I'll have been forgotten too by the time I start racing again in 3 weeks time! Think of it as a competitive advantage...! :)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:23 am

sounds like you had a solid weekend of racing there Macca! good for the legs :)

i have to agree with Cerb though on race tactics. to me, cycling is as much tactics as physical condition and effort. the objective is to expend the least amount of energy you can, so that you can maximise your effort when it counts.

too many club racers feel a sense of duty to the bunch, to chase down break aways. i find it is more interesting and enjoyable to play cat-and-mouse - i'll rarely get out of the seat and chase. i prefer to save my energy for launching attacks. there comes a point when if no one chases, you may as well take the initiative before the race is gifted to the break. but the objective is to play a game of bluff and brinkmanship with your competitors - waiting to see who blinks first.

too many races - especially crits - are spoiled by riders just blindly chasing down any and all attacks. the result is a bunch cruising around at 35km/h, with no one bothering to attack and no point in lifting the pace.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:33 am

Interesting stuff. My best results are bunch sprint finishes, but I personally feel the need to do some work at the front if I am going to contest the sprint. Sometimes that is just rolling turns, or helping to catch a break, or even working in a failed break.

I agree with Cerb that racing is about winning and using whatever tactics you can to do that, but it is an easy(ier) tactic for a good sprinter to stick with the bunch, do no work and sprint at the end. 90% of the time on a flat circuit, others will bring back a break and there is nothing you need to do except find position at the end and hit the afterburners. There may be some team plays in the sprint, but if you find the right wheel you can do OK solo. If you are a breakaway man, at a minimum you need to organise a break bunch to work together, and then you are dependant on the abilities of those around you and how determined the bunch is. Winning under these circumstances is a much lower chance proposition even if you do have the best tactical brain in the business.

I am fairly new to this, so just my personal opinion and what makes me satisfied when I get a result. At the end of the day, some (most) races suit sprinting type riders. If you are not a sprinter and want to race, you just have to expect that most racers will be won by sprinters employing typical sprinter type tactics.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby cerb » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:56 am

Vos - it's the internet, all are our own opinions and in that sense all perfectly valid! :)

I agree on the fact that breakaway's are a difficult tactic, but disagree on every race being a sprinters race. Yes, this is mostly the case for criteriums, but a very large proportion of the road races aren't suited to sprinters at all. I'm more of a sprinter type and I will almost certainly get dropped as soon as the road points upward greater than 3% for longer than 500m-2km... When going uphill with 300W FTP (AT) 90kg vs 280W FTP (AT) 65kg, there will be a winner every time.

With crits, 1600W peak power vs 1100W peak power, there is again a clear differential as to who is best suited ...hence why I do a lot more crit racing than road racing! haha :)

The problems with sprinting are 1) the race has to come down to a sprint in the first place so you often need to work in order to set that up, 2) you can also readily be blocked, pick the wrong wheel or wrong line or 3) be beaten by the hoards of other sprinter types.

Sprinting is chaotic - from a safety perspective, I think I'd prefer to be 5'4" and 65kg and ride away from my competition on the safety of a steep hill than be elbow to elbow with two other 6'4" 100kg blokes at 50+kph through a 90degree corner! Though I do enjoy the adrenaline of the latter...

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:42 pm

I am a 70kg (about 5"9) rider who can sprint OK. But I can still get up most hills (worst is normally about 150m elevation at 4-5%) with the good climbers in my local race scene (B grade). There are not many races around me that end with a long/steep hill even though some include a long steep hill normally far from the finish. I find that on most of the rolling type courses which can often contain a lot of elevation, many of the dedicated sprinters are dropped, but there are still plenty of capable sprinters left for a challenging bunch sprint at the end that leaves the climbers behind.

I have won a few races in a sprint, and although I contributed to break catching just to do my bit, the break would have been caught anyway. I did not need to do anything (others did it for me!!). For me the tactics are in the last minute of the race. I have never explicitly worked with others, so it has always been about finding the right wheel and beating the other sprinters. There are certainly tactics involved, and I have been boxed in before or just picked the wrong wheel many times. But tactically for me it has been far easier to work out sprint tactics than break tactics. I have won one race in a late break on a hilly course. That was much harder than winning a bunch sprint... both physically and tactically!!

I am not trying to say that a sprint win is all about power and nothing about tactics. I just think that it takes more tactics for breakaways along with a good dose of multi rider collaboration, and the odds of a win are still much lower than for a sprint.... so I can understand the frustration of those who cannot win a bunch sprint at least in my area where I race. They do not have much option to win from tactics unless they can get help from multiple riders.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm

vosadrian wrote:I am not trying to say that a sprint win is all about power and nothing about tactics. I just think that it takes more tactics for breakaways along with a good dose of multi rider collaboration, and the odds of a win are still much lower than for a sprint.... so I can understand the frustration of those who cannot win a bunch sprint at least in my area where I race.
it shouldn't be that way. with the pros, it's the breakaways that often win - with the sprinters' teams having to work like dogs to set up a sprint finish. but at club level, you can rely on some random punter(s) to chase down a breakaway attempt like the hounds of hell, only to fade away - exhausted, allowing someone else to emerge from the middle of the bunch to take the win. race tactics at club level are just generally undeveloped.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby vosadrian » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:55 pm

A grade seems to be closer to that level and is often won by a break. It seems in B grade that someone chases most things down, and it is fairly rare for a break to make it. But this is mostly crits and occasionally a road race. This surprised me when I started racing West head which is quite a hilly course. Constant rolling with some steep pinches and a 3-4k 4-5% climb at the beginning and a 500m 10% pinch close to the end. But in about 4 races I have done there it has always been a bunch sprint. Most of the time the bunch gets to the stop of the last pinch at slow pace and then all look at each other to see who will do the lead out for the others down the hill to the line!

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:09 pm

with A grade, there is typically a wider spread of rider strengths. if a couple of strong riders get away, the weaker A graders are often thinking "i'm hanging on for dear life!" and leave it to the stronger (NRS?) guys left in the bunch. at least that's my impression - i don't ride A grade..

courses with steep pinches seem to be great at preventing breakaways. while a few will fall off the back, the survivors are usually those who can get over the hill in contact with the main/front group. if a few strong (lightweight) climbers do form a split over the hill, often they are not as strong on the flats and will get chased back. this is what happens most times at the Sam Miranda road race in Vic, which has a medium/big climb in the middle.

it's the courses with long, hard climbs which split the bunch - e.g. Baw Baw road race. but these aren't really breakaways, they're just survival of the fittest.

flat-ish courses with lots of x-winds are good for breakaways :)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Karati » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:43 pm

cerb wrote:I've seen a lot of reports complaining of people sitting on and not doing any work lately and it both perplexes and frustrates me a little bit... it is a RACE! The aim of a race is to win and therefore I would think that employing tactics which help you do this should be the goal, not impressing those around you?

I get your point and I gauge my contribution carefully but if everyone rides around like mushrooms waiting for a bunch sprint then it gets pretty boring.

For example, local open grade road race, haven't raced in over a year so raced a grade down. First of four 8km undulating loops, average speed something stupid like 32km/h. I attacked knowing I wouldn't stay away but just to get things going. Sat up and got caught half a lap later but it was enough to get a bit of blood flowing and encourage others to attack. It was on for the rest of the race. The eventual winner (I was second by about half a wheel) did jack the entire time except sit on. Meanwhile the rest of us chased the break down in the third and fourth lap, animated the race and had a good hit out.

If everyone else just sat at the back in the draught then the break would win anyway so what's the point? Similarly, I could have sat on the back and easily kicked his arse in the sprint with fresh legs but there is more to be gained in racing than just doing the minimum possible.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby toppity » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:38 pm

I agree with Cerb. Race how you want. Trust me, if it looks like everyone is sitting waiting for a sprint someone will eventually make a move. I used to get upset about people complaining about me sitting on and sprinting (I've done this before) but I'm not there for training. I train to race, and when I race I get this weird sense of achievement from winning. Call me competitive.

Funnily enough, I've also won in breakaways, chased many breaks and been dropped because I choose poor times to work hard. In handicaps I will always work in my group, and I'm confident I've developed a good reputation locally because of that. So, do I need a 'badge of honour' for working every turn....nup. Do I feel guilty riding home after winning a sprint after never seeing the front of 70 strong bunch at Sandown on a Thursday....nup. Do I feel better about myself if I do well in a break away....nup. It's just racing, in big Crits' you've a 1 in 70 chance of winning. Not great odds eh. Ride to your strengths, let others complain, and be safe on the road. Some people are just not happy if they are not upset about something.
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:43 pm

Bravo.
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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby lock_ » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:22 pm

Been a long time since I've heard anyone complain about a sprinter sit on. Sprinters themselves :lol:

Last summer we had a rather decent sprinter make regular appearances at our local crits. He was good, to the extent winning was a given if it came down to a sprint; also had the ego to match. Anyway, races stopped coming down to a sprint finish. There'd always be 1-2 guys get away with three-to-go (if a break wasn't already long gone), no one would chase, sprinter stuck with the decision to work for everyone else or settle for 3rd. Not such an issue at an NRS level where you've got a team pulling for you, but it helps to be not unliked at your local club crits.

There's other nuances I think are lost on many. Like when the pace picks up and I drop the wheel in front; have I done this as I cant hold it, or did I just want a bit of a break to open up. Maybe I know you're already struggling and this gap will see you dropped. Say it gets towards the pointy end of a race and we're in a break. Do I keep rolling nice turns, or do I make sure you're stuck out in the wind that little bit longer... I once thought that guy who'd been racing for 20+ years didn't know how to roll proper turns, when in fact I was the one getting schooled.

It's all fair game, but know that you'll be lining up with the same guys next week.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:08 pm

Loooong time since I have done a hard effort!... Last race was in June!. So a 39km TTT was a great idea on no training.
In the end it wasn't too hard as my team mates weren't that strong. One basically started missing turns after 3 or 4 kms and another after about 10 :lol:
Was fun all the same... Keeping them all together was fun especially on and just after the climbs.
Basically spent did a 2 man TT with two others doing a quick roll through here and there. Could have done one 18km lap quicker solo but definitely not 2.
Happy we finished under an hour. Good laughs we had. Came 3rd in our category but stuffed up by leaving before the podium... Whoops.
Top guys averaged 5kms quicker!... Power is slowly coming up in the TT position but is still way down on road bike. 350w versus maybe 310-320 :shock:

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:05 pm

Back in the saddle!

Waratahs B grade - Eastern Creek 21/9

Finally got back to a good hard race after a test run at Bankstown C grade last week (average NP around 240W for the hour, after around 240W NP furiously trying to get to the start, good hitout but dropped the bunch by accident in a lap, then solo'd around with the eventual D grade winner having a chat).
So after a few cheerful hellos, because I hadn't seen anyone in 4 months, I line up for the 70-75 minutes of education and selfhatred. We pull out and I follow #52 for half a lap, and some vague interest in rolling turns fades as a bloke in an Anytime Fitness jersey tries to drag the bunch around for a few laps. I've learnt my lesson that no one wins the race by loyalty to the peloton and it certainly isn't won in the first 15 minutes, so my interest in pulling a hard turn is about zero so I pulled really gently when I had to or when I kicked the hornets nest a little. My FTP test had me around 250W, first lap and subsequent laps were 280-290W normalised, basically I saw the data and said to myself "behave yourself, young Jedi" because I'd have to pump out harder laps than that to stay away.

The bunch was getting pulled around for half the race by the weaker riders so the pace got slower and slower, I wasn't interested in revving them up too much, so a cheeky bloke was off the front for 2-4 laps in the middle of the race while the bunch watched him 200-300-400m in the distance. The prime whistle was blown when I decided to try and chase, but the bunch sat on. I'm not going to tow 28 blokes to the break, and despite a small break of 6 developing soon after, no one wanted to take up the gauntlet. One guy continued to attempt a bridge but sat up 100m from the line, prime won by the solo break. We picked him up eventually.
More of the same, I tried a couple inspirational yells but it fell on deaf ears. A kick on the hornets nest 2 laps from the finish with a small sprint down the hill but no one wanted (or could) come with me, I didn't have the guts to attempt the flyer, so they picked me up, got the bell and I didn't quite have the legs to lift for the bunch sprint after a tough half lap to the line. I rolled in 10-12th of 30.

I'm quite happy with my ride, set a new power curve with PBs for the entire Z5, Z4 and Z3 areas. Clearly my testing doesn't really cover how I perform in crits :lol: Felt I had a great hitout to work out how well I have really been going during the base period, but I'm somewhat regretting that I didn't stick my neck out because there was certainly enough apathy in the bunch to seal a win. I didn't have anyone to rely on today which makes life hard if you can't finish the attack. Penrith Regatta Centre next week, should be a solid 2 hours on rivet which will be more data, and maybe a chance for a podium. A lot more friendlies to help a break :)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Hugh Stone old » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:33 pm

Good to see you back into it Xplora. Nice write up too:-)

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:02 am

Tour of Midlands, Masters C, 68km
i love this race, the course is so much fun. only about 24 riders lined up in our grade, on the AARC proving ground - closed roads! the first part is just laps of the high speed oval, very dull - a few half-hearted attacks but mostly just biding our time for the fun to start. after half an hour or so we turned onto the handling circuit, where we descended down some corkscrew corners at high speed and then onto Gum Flats Rd climb - 1.7km (AT) 5%. not a huge climb, but we do it as a circuit, tackling it every 15 minutes or so.

i felt stronger than last year, where i hung on until the last lap, so i reasoned that this year i should be better. the trick with this circuit is to arrive at the bottom of the descent in contact with the bunch, or else you will be spending biccies making up the gap, riding uphill. unfortunately the descent scares me a bit, as to stay in touch you have to really crank it over at 50-60km/h, with no run off and metal barriers to catch you. in theory this isn't hard for a competent descender, the problem is that to stay in touch, you are relying heavily on those in close proximity not to screw it up. you cannot rely on that. as per last year, someone ahead of me decided that they were going a bit quickly and hit the brakes - while we were all cranked over at 50 km/h.. once again, that familiar, bowel-loosening feeling swept over me of "i think i'm about to slide head first into that steel barrier at high speed".

luckily, i held it. last year i actually had the back fishing out in the same circumstance. having gotten over that hurdle, the problem was punching it at the bottom of the descent to catch up the lost 50m to the bunch. not good when you then have 1.7km of redlining up the hill. on one climb, i slide off the back slightly and had to max out my HR for 3 minutes chasing back on. not the way to win.. after a couple of laps, the bunch settled into the descent and i got a bit more comfortable with it.

on the bell lap, everyone slowed i found myself on the front around the oval. i was a bit out-snookered there, but i reasoned that i was only soft pedaling (140bpm) so i couldn't have been wasting too much energy. in hindsight, i should have hidden. on the last climb, it was altogether, with Masters B catching us. then someone kicked about 3/4 of the way up, we 'dropped' Masters B but i couldn't hold on. i trailed in, 10 seconds back for 12th place.

i could have done better than that. i wasted too much energy playing it safe on the descents, but then.. i had to work on monday.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:26 pm

Amen to that, jules21. These dangerous courses are great in the higher grades and for professionals, but Masters C really comes down to tyre choice and stupidity :lol:

I had a bit of that happening yesterday, realised i was too cautious in a big way off the sweeper towards the end; if you are on the inside and drift out putting on a 800w surge with a 5 lanewide track, its the rear rider who needs to avoid you. I needed to gas it while still leaning and it cost me too.

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Re: Race Report Thread

Postby jules21 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:36 pm

after crashing out last year, taking chunks of skin off my elbow and waiting 7 hours in emergency with the rather unhappy wife to have bits of road extracted from half way down my arm, under the skin, i resolved that finishing upright was a better option than risking all :)

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