That is a tactic though, one that I have used and was successful with. I did then proceed to get moved to a higher grade where that sort of action won't be successful. If you are fit and and strong enough to destroy the bunch then go for it.jules21 wrote: i enjoy the tactics of bike racing. it frustrates me when they become like greyhound races - "i'm just going to ride as fast as I can!"
Race Report Thread
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby skull » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:42 pm
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:16 pm
i have no issue with that. whatever works. but seeing someone out front and thinking "he's getting away! i'll use all my energy to chase and bring him back. i wonder what will happen after then? oh well I guess I'll find out, hopefully I win though" is stoopidskull wrote:That is a tactic though, one that I have used and was successful with. I did then proceed to get moved to a higher grade where that sort of action won't be successful. If you are fit and and strong enough to destroy the bunch then go for it.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby Xplora » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:31 pm
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby vosadrian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:40 pm
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:12 pm
nope - i agree, nothing wrong with that.vosadrian wrote:Nothing wrong with chasing if you have a stake in the spoils in the sprint!!
tactics is what makes it fun! if you can't read a race (due to nonsensical tactics by others), half the fun is gone.Xplora wrote:They will get smart eventually. I notice most of the old foxes don't chase crap (old foxes, I love your work, no offence intended). It's only the young and dumb who needlessly chase. I've been wondering about that lately though - I think I've been chasing a bit much lately.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby vosadrian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:26 pm
I guess the issue is that many unseasoned racers see someone going up the road and think they are going to have no chance of a win if they get away so they chase (this was my thinking when I started out). They may think (correctly or not) that they have some chance in a sprint, so some chance vs no chance seems like an easy decision. It takes some time to work out if you can sprint or not, and if you realise you can't you are less likely to ride a race geared towards a sprint. Then there are some riders who are not racing to win and just want to do something other than sit in for the race so they have some impact on the outcome rather than just sitting and watching for a training ride.jules21 wrote:nope - i agree, nothing wrong with that.vosadrian wrote:Nothing wrong with chasing if you have a stake in the spoils in the sprint!!
Sprinting is tactical too. Just cause you are the fastest solo sprinter does not mean you are going to out-sprint everybody. You can win a sprint on smarts more so then absolute sprinting power/speed if you have reasonable sprint pace/kick. To learn those smarts you have to get involved in the sprint. I can sprint OK, but I am not the quickest, but most of my good results are in sprint finishes.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby Xplora » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:38 pm
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:44 pm
since if i've been using a power meter, i've learned more about what i'm capable of - in terms of power output and workload. when you start, you tend to think "let's see how I go". after you gain more experience though, and particularly with access to good data, you learn more about your capabilities and limitations - e.g. if I spend 30 secs. at 450w chasing that break down, i will not have enough left in the tank to contest a sprint 1 lap later.vosadrian wrote: It takes some time to work out if you can sprint or not, and if you realise you can't you are less likely to ride a race geared towards a sprint.
this is me. as i can't sprint, i don't like it, i prefer to attempt breakaways. if i come to a race, i'm basically looking to take something away from it. sitting in for a criterium is to me a waste of time and money. i like the saying, i think it was Eddy Merckx, who said "you have 2 big shots to fire in a race". i choose to use them on my terms - i.e. usually to attack. why use them to help others? (unless you have a reason to do that)vosadrian wrote:Then there are some riders who are not racing to win and just want to do something other than sit in for the race so they have some impact on the outcome rather than just sitting and watching for a training ride.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby vosadrian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:23 pm
I can go either way. I normally fire one shot at a break attempt (early enough to recover for later) that usually fails (for the same reason yours did), and one at the sprint. I enjoy a sprint, but am often frustrated by my own poor choices of positioning and timing. I have learned that trying to use someone random for a lead-out is a game of luck unless you know their capability well, and I am often better off going early myself. Unfortunately this often results in me being someone else's lead-out and I get pipped at the post, but I might still pick-up a place at least. I have never tried an organised lead-out with friends/club, but I am sure that could work well.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby skull » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:43 pm
If I start to needlessly chase will this make me young again?Xplora wrote:They will get smart eventually. I notice most of the old foxes don't chase crap (old foxes, I love your work, no offence intended). It's only the young and dumb who needlessly chase. I've been wondering about that lately though - I think I've been chasing a bit much lately.
Hmmm, could be a new anti-aging strategy. I'll see how it goes.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby skull » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:48 pm
I know this upsets some people, but when I am in some races and I know I won't be winning I make a real prick of myself and needlesly attack or chase breakaway attempts. Maily because it is fun and hard work, but mainly because I am not going to make it easier for anyone else.vosadrian wrote:A lot of people write off certain types of races as sprint finishes and the plot is set before the start with everyone working towards that. There always seems to be plenty of riders going for the sprint, so I guess they think they have a chance. Only one way to learn!!
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:15 pm
there's no hard and fast rules. but I prefer to attack than chase attacks. if there is an attack ahead i tend to sit in. let everyone else wear themselves down. as the saying goes - to win, you must be prepared to lose. that's my excuse anywayskull wrote:I know this upsets some people, but when I am in some races and I know I won't be winning I make a real prick of myself and needlesly attack or chase breakaway attempts. Maily because it is fun and hard work, but mainly because I am not going to make it easier for anyone else.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby Xplora » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:31 am
Skull, it IS an anti aging strategy. HTFU works!
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby jules21 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:17 pm
a stronger field lined up than last year, the inaugural event. i drove the 4+ hours from Melb on Friday night after work, getting into bed at 11.30pm. at 6am I was up, building my TT bike which I'd previously ridden a grand total of 0 times. surprisingly I got it working - it didn't need many adjustments so I decided to ride it instead of my roadie. the set-up was all wrong though and I got to the start line with 60 secs. to spare... no warm-up! unsurprisingly my TT sucked, losing 1 minute to the leader over only 11:40.
stage 2 was the 72km road race. in 30 deg., i found it brutally hard as we hit the series of short, sharp hills at full gas (for me). i hung on though - a few times yo-yoing a few metres off the back but getting back on quickly. after about 30km the pace seemed to ease a smidgeon and I started to feel more comfortable. then the last series of hills approached and the pace ramped back up. i was on the limit again, but this time moving forward as riders were shed.
there were about 15 riders left on the front as we moved to the final push to the finish line. with about 1km to go, the lead bunch kicked hard and that was it. i was pulling ~400w when i glanced down at my Garmin but I couldn't match them. i came in 14th, 18 secs. down. due to the riders dropped, this moved me up to 12th on GC.
this morning's stage was a 20 lap criterium. a tight circuit, I didn't feel physically tested, but there were a few moments when riders got it wrong and out of shape around me. i managed to stay upright and finished with the bunch - avg. 43 km/h! short and sharp. however I lost a spot on GC due to time bonuses for sprint prims, which I didn't contest (probably should have).
i should have finished top 10 if I had got the TT right.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby foo on patrol » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:58 am
Foo
Goal 6000km
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby cerb » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:07 am
I'm looking to do that one next year - baby & wife permitting. I don't think there are any long climbs? Just short, sharp hills? Looked like my kind of event!
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby cerb » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:24 am
DNF
Well, I DNF'd again, but not for lack of trying...!
It was a hot and windy day making conditions particularly hard. I wasn't feeling great in the morning, but decided to head down and have a crack anyway.
We had the usual 1 lap under control to start the race and before we even got to the line to 'officially start' the race, there was already one guy attacking hard. The first 3 laps were painful as my body was not prepared, but I soon settled in and actually felt pretty comfortable. About 15mins in a break went which looked good and had all of the good teams represented. The bunch had sat up and we were cruising along. We had no-one up in the break and it was settling in and looked like it may stick, so I decided to try and bridge across.
I went solo, with a good attack not overcommitting myself (as I sometimes do). I got away and checked behind, but noone was coming with me so I knucked down and tried to maintain a high pace. I got the gap down to about 30m, but the headwind down the back straight destroyed me and my legs and lungs were screaming. I had nothing left and the gap started to open up again... I eased off and once the bunch was approaching put some power down to pull back in. Except I couldn't... I'd spent everything trying to get across and I just fell short of pulling back onto the bunch.
I dangled off the back for half a lap trying to catch back on into one of the corners, but I was cooked. Race over.
One of the big/strong teams had Baden Cooke riding for them and they raced some very good tactics, putting three riders in the main break then set Cookie up for the win - though he was almost rolled on the line in the sprint finish!
On a positive note, I was feeling good until I attacked. The conditions were also tough, with about half the field also abandoning - some sooner than me!
After pulling out, I spent a few mins recovering and then pulled on a marshalls vest and mashalled the second half of the C-Grade race. It actually gave me a pretty good view of what was going on in the A-Grade race and still got some km in my legs! All-in-all a good morning out!
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby Cul » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:34 am
GCC - Eastern Gardens - B Grade
Sunday morning saw the sun, and wind come out to play in Geelong, it was beautiful down at Eastern Gardens with a nice breeze coming off the bay. Yesterday’s race was my first race back since separating my AC Joint 3 weeks ago in a fall; so I was a little nervous on the roll out to the race because it doesn’t seem to matter what you do in training it’s pretty difficult to replicate a race.
We rolled off the line fairly easily into the wind but it wasn’t long before the attacks started; a single rider got away another rider bridged and the break become two – they made a huge gap before they were caught a lap or two later, then another break went and they were caught, then another break went and what a surprise they were caught… The middle part of the race settled down, so much so it turned into an easy ride and jokes were bantered around about just cruising to the end and a big bunch sprint.
I chuckled, but on the inside that sort of banter always gets me going! Next lap over the top of the course I rolled though and snuck off the front, before I knew it I had a gap of a few hundred meters the bunch let me hang off the front for 3 or 4 laps. It was hard work off the front, but eventually the bunch caught me. The remainder of the race saw a few breaks get away for a lap or two before getting caught, once the three lap board come out the bunch re-formed and was off, a number of short hard attacks saw everyone jumping at wheels… I moved forward towards the end of the second last lap, and if I am being honest probably half a lap too early. Down the back straight it was on like Donkey Kong as our bunch raced past the A Grade lead bunch on both sides of the road!!! I managed to keep to the front third of the bunch up the climb into the sprint but I was too far back to contest the sprint so just rolled over the line.
Overall the result I was reasonably happy with, I expected to be off the back given I hadn’t raced for a few weeks; the shoulder was fine although there were a few aches and pain coming up the climb (pulling up on the bars). Looking forward to the next few races.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby jules21 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:05 pm
congrats Cerb and Cul on breakaways. i think I'd be happier climbing hills in a long road race than attempting to break away in A grade at SKCC. i'll have to give Geelong crits a try one time when I'm down visiting the in-laws.
Cerb yeah the ToEG is a nice race to do. it is deceptive though - there are some steep pinches but I suspect if you can race A at SKCC you'll be OK. it will be tough with your size. others you might consider are Tour of South West - which is very flat, except for the crit but I reckon you'd handle it. Also Sam Miranda is mostly flat but there is a big hill in the middle.. i chased back on last year and contested the finish (poorly). there's more flat-ish Northern Combine courses too. i'm assuming you would be targeting the flatter races.. i may have just insulted you
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby jamescbdunn » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:21 pm
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby hugh stone » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:52 pm
Count me in for the NWSCC lead out.vosadrian wrote:A lot of people write off certain types of races as sprint finishes and the plot is set before the start with everyone working towards that. There always seems to be plenty of riders going for the sprint, so I guess they think they have a chance. Only one way to learn!!
I can go either way. I normally fire one shot at a break attempt (early enough to recover for later) that usually fails (for the same reason yours did), and one at the sprint. I enjoy a sprint, but am often frustrated by my own poor choices of positioning and timing. I have learned that trying to use someone random for a lead-out is a game of luck unless you know their capability well, and I am often better off going early myself. Unfortunately this often results in me being someone else's lead-out and I get pipped at the post, but I might still pick-up a place at least. I have never tried an organised lead-out with friends/club, but I am sure that could work well.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby vosadrian » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:10 pm
I'm there!! I am sure there are better choices than me though!heuston wrote:Count me in for the NWSCC lead out.vosadrian wrote:A lot of people write off certain types of races as sprint finishes and the plot is set before the start with everyone working towards that. There always seems to be plenty of riders going for the sprint, so I guess they think they have a chance. Only one way to learn!!
I can go either way. I normally fire one shot at a break attempt (early enough to recover for later) that usually fails (for the same reason yours did), and one at the sprint. I enjoy a sprint, but am often frustrated by my own poor choices of positioning and timing. I have learned that trying to use someone random for a lead-out is a game of luck unless you know their capability well, and I am often better off going early myself. Unfortunately this often results in me being someone else's lead-out and I get pipped at the post, but I might still pick-up a place at least. I have never tried an organised lead-out with friends/club, but I am sure that could work well.
I think it will be fun as we (NWSCC) get a bit more organised as a club in racing to try some team tactics.... We have a number of riders who have done well on their own, so I am sure we can work together to get some good results. I would just enjoy a different dynamic to racing with several fellow riders working to a common goal.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby sjb667 » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:49 pm
B Grade - bunch finish
After about four months not racing I was interested to see how this one would go. Decent bunch (37) this morning with a perfect weather for it too. Rolled out fairly easy and the bunch stuck together for the entire race, couple of half hearted attacks getting shut down finishing in a sprint with about 15-20 in the mix. Usual pace (39km/h) for Waratahs B but didn't feel too bad considering I've had a bit of time off.
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Re: Race Report Thread
Postby Xplora » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:18 pm
Help your club out with the marshalling and everything possible. It is a massive job and sometimes they really could use the help. We had 7 blokes picking 5 places today, still struggled until we saw the slow motion video lol
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