The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:00 pm

People that panic break in a bunch. I was brought down yesterday at a T-intersection, by a bloke that panick braked, because of a car from the right. The only problem was, there was enough room plus some for two riders to roll around within the the left line and the gutter = near 2mtrs of room and not impact the car. He was already around the turn and I was at the apex and leaning into the corner. :evil:

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:17 pm

Is that the Dutch cyclist posted before? Beats me how he doesn't watch both ways... I'm sure I'll get told off for suggesting a rider do that.
foo on patrol wrote:People that panic break in a bunch. I was brought down yesterday at a T-intersection

Foo
Hope you are okay Foo.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:57 pm

G-boaf - I just watched it briefly. No audio
Foo. - hope you are ok

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:42 pm

that was seriously stupid but why has it made international news?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby K2 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:01 am

mikesbytes wrote:
that was seriously stupid but why has it made international news?
$$$$

Pulling clips from utoob or other sources and turning your once well respected news service [in a few cases....well, two spring immediately to mind :cry: ] into little more than a funniest home videos show in part is way cheaper than employing humans. They're required to do more [provide an online presence, fill multiple channels] with less [$$$$ that is, not news], so the result isn't all that surprising.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby AdelaidePeter » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:09 am

foo on patrol wrote:People that panic break in a bunch. I was brought down yesterday at a T-intersection, by a bloke that panick braked, because of a car from the right. The only problem was, there was enough room plus some for two riders to roll around within the the left line and the gutter = near 2mtrs of room and not impact the car. He was already around the turn and I was at the apex and leaning into the corner. :evil:
I wonder if the real problem was that the cyclists behind were too close. It seems a bit rough to criticise someone for braking out of self preservation.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:43 pm

g-boaf wrote:Hope you are okay Foo.
jasonc wrote: Foo. - hope you are ok
Yeah thanks, just skin missing from leg and hip and bruising but the bike was okay, so that's was the good bit. :mrgreen:

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby kenwstr » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:04 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
pj wrote:
biker jk wrote:Road bike pedals are not a good idea for commuting.
Yes can be annoying when filtering and moving in slow traffic, I'm generally ok except when I forget about them :)
I'm with biker jk, when you get to your destination its convenient to be able to walk around. My road, TT and track bike have 3 bolt pedals but everything else has 2 bolt or even nothing (short distances). Not that its a biggie, personal choice, a bit like which beer is the best :lol:
Totally agree, back when I had flat peddles, I could easily out accelerate cars across an intersection. Less annoyance for motorists = an easier and safer riding experience for me. Unfortunately, it just takes too long to clip in and get the power down on the road bike, so now I'm just another annoying cyclist. I do most riding out of town but I have to get out of town. I know this perspective annoys some cyclists but having ridden with flats, clips & straps and clipless, I much prefer flats in traffic.

Ken

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:48 pm

kenwstr wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:
pj wrote:
Yes can be annoying when filtering and moving in slow traffic, I'm generally ok except when I forget about them :)
I'm with biker jk, when you get to your destination its convenient to be able to walk around. My road, TT and track bike have 3 bolt pedals but everything else has 2 bolt or even nothing (short distances). Not that its a biggie, personal choice, a bit like which beer is the best :lol:
Totally agree, back when I had flat peddles, I could easily out accelerate cars across an intersection. Less annoyance for motorists = an easier and safer riding experience for me. Unfortunately, it just takes too long to clip in and get the power down on the road bike, so now I'm just another annoying cyclist. I do most riding out of town but I have to get out of town. I know this perspective annoys some cyclists but having ridden with flats, clips & straps and clipless, I much prefer flats in traffic.

Ken
It's about experience and that muscle memory of clipping in. I can clip in and accelerate pretty fast, much to the surprise of some motorists thinking they'll just go down the left lane to get ahead (like Mr Avalon this morning).

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:43 pm

kenwstr wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:
pj wrote:
Yes can be annoying when filtering and moving in slow traffic, I'm generally ok except when I forget about them :)
I'm with biker jk, when you get to your destination its convenient to be able to walk around. My road, TT and track bike have 3 bolt pedals but everything else has 2 bolt or even nothing (short distances). Not that its a biggie, personal choice, a bit like which beer is the best :lol:
Totally agree, back when I had flat peddles, I could easily out accelerate cars across an intersection. Less annoyance for motorists = an easier and safer riding experience for me. Unfortunately, it just takes too long to clip in and get the power down on the road bike, so now I'm just another annoying cyclist. I do most riding out of town but I have to get out of town. I know this perspective annoys some cyclists but having ridden with flats, clips & straps and clipless, I much prefer flats in traffic.

Ken
Just to be clear, I wasn't arguing for flat pedals but MTB pedals over road bike pedals. You can clip in an out much faster with MTB pedals, while it's easier to walk around with MTB style shoes. I don't think flat pedals are a great idea, especially after recently witnessing a rider crash as her foot slipped off the wet pedal as she got out of the saddle.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:41 pm

biker jk wrote:I don't think flat pedals are a great idea, especially after recently witnessing a rider crash as her foot slipped off the wet pedal as she got out of the saddle.
One anecdote VS that VAST majority of cyclists around the world using flat pedals just fine.... I'm sure plenty here could also chime in with clipstacks.

Though in defences of the standing start acceleration, I've never had issues with SPDs... One foot stays clipped in and the other gets clipped immediately 30% of the time. If it doesn't I'm still off my saddle and accelerating regardless. I'll attend to the clip once 40m down the road once I get my speed up. Though this approach might not apply as easily to road pedals and shoes, I can't comment having only used SPDs on my road bikes.


(I use SPDs for rides longer than ~25km when I'm riding for fitness/recreation. For transport, mucking around with a second pair of shoes is barely worth the marginal benefits they provide.)

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:09 am

Probably the falls due to slipping off a flat pedal are balanced by the cleat stacks :)

The reason that many people don't get a big benefit from cleats (or even toe clips with the straps done up tight) over flat pedals is that they are heavily quad dominate. I'm at the other other end of the spectrum and gain a huge benefit from being clipped in. The bike I ride down to the train station has flat pedals, when I ride home which is uphill I'm soooo much slower. So the benefit of cleats varies considerably from person to person
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:49 am

mikesbytes wrote:So the benefit of cleats varies considerably from person to person
Absolutely.
mikesbytes wrote:when I ride home which is uphill I'm soooo much slower
My experience is occasionally similarly if I'm maxed out on my gears and going up a steep hill then sometimes that uplift will be enough to keep me going.

But in terms of efficiency clip-less barely make a difference from the research I have read. (Read the full thing if you have time)
http://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PDF/Po ... e_2008.pdf

Key conclusions IMO:
Thus it seems that wearing clipless pedals did not influence mechanical efficiency, pedalling mechanics or muscular activity and that elite riders are not further able to take advantage of clipless pedals during submaximal cycling in a laboratory testing.

However, wearing clipless pedals could be advantageous in other cases, where the link between the foot and the pedal provided by the fixation could be necessary, e.g., during maximal cycling, cycling up hills, or any condition where maximal power is required. Indeed, Capmal and Vandewalle [2] have shown a greater power output during all-out sprints with toe-clips than without, while Hintzy et al. [8] reported a significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and power output when clipless pedals were used during all-out ergometer sprints.
The latter point is probably self evident to most clipless users particularly if you race. The efficiency conclusion though is probably a surprise to many.


**Of course the original point remains. People vary. Some people might gain benefits that weren't observered in a study of only 15 people (8 'elite' cyclists, 7 non elite)

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:32 am

With the way I pedal, I much prefer clipless pedals as opposed to just flat pedals. I'm a lot slower with flat pedals.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby uart » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:21 pm

g-boaf wrote:With the way I pedal, I much prefer clipless pedals as opposed to just flat pedals. I'm a lot slower with flat pedals.
Yeah it feels weird without cleats when you're really used to them. Even when cycling slowly and non competitively, there are some things that really bug me without cleats. Oddly, the thing that annoyed me the most last time I cycled on plain flat pedals was just getting the crank position right. (For starting out when stopped in traffic.)

I know it seems like a tiny thing, but when clipped to the pedal you can easily move the crank to any position with only one foot engaged. Without cleats however, if you stop with the crank at the bottom of the stroke and you are sitting there with just the one foot on the pedal (the other foot is on the ground because you are stopped) you've got to try and get your toes underneath the pedal to flip the crank back to a sensible position for starting.

Last time I had to ride somewhere that I really needed to be in joggers (on arrival), and didn't want to bother carrying another set of shoes, I resorted to digging out an old set of cage pedals. Not as good as clipless, but even in joggers I found that I much preferred the caged pedal to that of a simple flat pedal.
Last edited by uart on Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby CycloVelo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:30 pm

I personally just love the feel and security of being clipped in.

I still use flats for my MTB and was recently reminded quite rudely of one of the major drawbacks of platform pedals when I had an off and the pedal pins made mincemeat of my left shin, right down to the bone :(

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:45 pm

uart wrote:
g-boaf wrote:With the way I pedal, I much prefer clipless pedals as opposed to just flat pedals. I'm a lot slower with flat pedals.
Yeah it feels weird without cleats when you're really used to them. Even when cycling slowly and non competitively, there are some things that really bug me without cleats. Oddly, the thing that annoyed me the most last time I cycled on plain flat pedals was just getting the crank position right. (For starting out when stopped in traffic.)
When I started riding again, I went straight to clipless right off the bat. Anything else feels strange to me now.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby uart » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:59 pm

g-boaf wrote:When I started riding again, I went straight to clipless right off the bat. Anything else feels strange to me now.
I rode for a long time (many years ago) with the old cage pedals, so I'm pretty used to them. When I got back into cycling that was what I initially used, but wasn't very long before my cycling friends convinced me to go clipless.

Compared to cage pedals, I haven't really found clipless to be that much more efficient. They are however definitely more comfortable on long rides, but most of all they are way more predictable when it comes to unclipping. So if you are just out to ride and that is all, then it's clipless all the way. No arguments there. But if you're going somewhere and you want shoes other than cleated when you get there, then the old cages and joggers can still come in handy from time to time.

I recently did a bike camping trip (you know the full deal, swag and billy etc), and with the amount of crap that I already had stuffed in my panniers, I definitely didn't want to pack another pair of shoes. So putting on the old cage pedals and taking only the joggers I was wearing worked out well for me. (It was a dead easy ride anyway, and only 65k each way.)

Cages tend to terrify anyone who isn't already familiar with them though. I gave a guy in my cycling group a ride of my bike when it had cages on, and he was just too darn frightened to even put his feet in them. :)

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby familyguy » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:41 pm

Could be worse. We could still be back in the age of straps and cleats where every foot down point was an exercise in forward planning to make sure you could loosen the strap first, then lift the shoe enough to disengage the cleat from the lip of the pedal, then get your foot out. I learned to ride those way back when I first started and have gone cleats ever since I could. Doesn't stop me having the odd moron moment when I can't get a pedal turned over and have to slowly push with the thing upside down. More than once I've had to give a sorry wave to people as I curse Keo's and remember why I swapped my two regular road bikes to Speedplay. Double sided SPD on everything else.

Jim
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:49 pm

human909 wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:So the benefit of cleats varies considerably from person to person
Absolutely.
mikesbytes wrote:when I ride home which is uphill I'm soooo much slower
My experience is occasionally similarly if I'm maxed out on my gears and going up a steep hill then sometimes that uplift will be enough to keep me going.

But in terms of efficiency clip-less barely make a difference from the research I have read. (Read the full thing if you have time)
http://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PDF/Po ... e_2008.pdf

Key conclusions IMO:
Thus it seems that wearing clipless pedals did not influence mechanical efficiency, pedalling mechanics or muscular activity and that elite riders are not further able to take advantage of clipless pedals during submaximal cycling in a laboratory testing.

However, wearing clipless pedals could be advantageous in other cases, where the link between the foot and the pedal provided by the fixation could be necessary, e.g., during maximal cycling, cycling up hills, or any condition where maximal power is required. Indeed, Capmal and Vandewalle [2] have shown a greater power output during all-out sprints with toe-clips than without, while Hintzy et al. [8] reported a significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and power output when clipless pedals were used during all-out ergometer sprints.
The latter point is probably self evident to most clipless users particularly if you race. The efficiency conclusion though is probably a surprise to many.


**Of course the original point remains. People vary. Some people might gain benefits that weren't observered in a study of only 15 people (8 'elite' cyclists, 7 non elite)
Good research H909

I don't know where the documentary evidence is, but I have seen it stated that muscles that extend a joint are more energy efficient than muscles that contract a joint so in cycling terms the major extendors are the quads and glutes, major contractors are the hamstrings and hip flexors. That would work in well with the statement that there was little efficiency difference between flat pedals and cleated pedals.

The other part of the statement was that cleated pedals were better for climbing, sprints etc and that makes sense as you can recruit the contractors ie more muscle to generate more watts for a period of time.

Hence I could make a generic statement that "cleated pedals make little difference in efficiency but make a noticeable difference in power" which of course varies from person to person. I think that's in alignment with the info you posted above
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby redsonic » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:03 pm

Mikesbytes:
...the major extendors are the quads and glutes, major contractors are the hamstrings and hip flexors...
Just for interest, the hamstrings can act as knee extenders too:

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:11 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Hence I could make a generic statement that "cleated pedals make little difference in efficiency but make a noticeable difference in power" which of course varies from person to person. I think that's in alignment with the info you posted above
Agreed. Though I would use the phrase 'peak power' rather than power.
mikesbytes wrote:I don't know where the documentary evidence is, but I have seen it stated that muscles that extend a joint are more energy efficient than muscles that contract a joint so in cycling terms the major extendors are the quads and glutes, major contractors are the hamstrings and hip flexors. That would work in well with the statement that there was little efficiency difference between flat pedals and cleated pedals.
My limited knowledge is that efficiency slightly related to muscle size. That concurs with leg extension being more efficient. In contrast, I would expect that biceps are generally more efficient that triceps, in that case biceps are contracting a joint. Extension vs contraction just how the muscle attaches to the joint.
mikesbytes wrote:The other part of the statement was that cleated pedals were better for climbing, sprints etc and that makes sense as you can recruit the contractors ie more muscle to generate more watts for a period of time.
Exactly.


**One more thing. Despite the article concluding no difference in efficiency was found they did find a 2% improvement in efficiency. It just wasn't statistically significant in their sample. Possibly are larger sample size could have had stronger conclusions. And naturally 2% is not to be ignored at the competitive level.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:50 pm

redsonic wrote:
Mikesbytes:
...the major extendors are the quads and glutes, major contractors are the hamstrings and hip flexors...
Just for interest, the hamstrings can act as knee extenders too:
:D

Yeh muscle running over 2 joints, just to make everything more complicated. Lucky we got Uber eats, no need to use those 2 joint actions riding down to the local restaurant :wink:
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby shouldnobetter » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:06 pm

I have half-flat, half-SPD pedals on all of my bikes. I got them on my hardtail when my commute was half cross country and half hilly roads, so I could ride unclipped through the bush and clipped in when standing going up the hills on the road. It worked so well that I eventually got them on my other bikes, including my road bike which I use for commuting now.

With these pedals it doesn't matter which side is up when I take off, just put my foot down and pedal. If I feel that my foot is on the flat side I wait a few seconds until the cranks are spinning fast enough, then take my foot off the pedal as it starts to go down and slam it back on as it is coming up again. The pedal has turned over and now has the clip up and my foot goes straight in.

This might not work so well if you stand up when taking off but I usually change down to a lower gear when I stop so I can get a quick start while seated, easily spinning up to a fairly high cadence then quickly up through the gears.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby warthog1 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:55 am

I wish Alex Simmons eould chime in here.
My understanding is that clipless extends the degrees of effective force application at the top and bottom of the stroke. They extend the proportion of the pedal stroke where force is applied.

Edit. Had a look at H909's link.
Wow it does a lot less than I thought :o
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