Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby Semar » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:08 pm

8 reasons why Campagnolo components are superior to 'other brands'.

1. Campagnolo shifters can be dismantled and repaired if needed. 'Other brands' are largely pressed together.

2. Thus I can convert my 10 speed shifters to 11 by replacing one part.

3. I can use the same shifters on a double or triple crank.

4. I can use my short cage derailleur on all campagnolo cassettes, including 13-29.

5. Comparing Campagnolo wheels with 'other brands' one finds that they spin smoother and for far longer.

6. Appearance is subjective, but obviously Campagnolo's shiny components look better than anything else. :wink:

7. One ''other brand', SRAM Red, looks VERY poorly finished.

8. Campagnolo is such a nice word to say.
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby clackers » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:30 pm

Great article.

Surely, no on wins if they go broke. A financial arrangement with SRAM would be a way for both companies to better face Shimano ...

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:44 pm

SO I SOLD MY RECORD QS EQUIPPED BIKE WHEN AL I NEEDED WAS A NEW CASSETTE AND R.D?!!!
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby notwal » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:04 am

The 2nd Womble wrote:SO I SOLD MY RECORD QS EQUIPPED BIKE WHEN AL I NEEDED WAS A NEW CASSETTE AND R.D?!!!
To change to 11 speed? According to You-tube all you need is the ratchet wheel, a cassette and chain. But that's just according to You-tube. :shock:
You'd need the chain rings too I imagine. It would be interesting to have all that verified.
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Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:37 am

After reading that article I am more in love with Campagnolo. However given that they strive to represent the top tier of racing components I can't understand there need to produce 6 levels of components. IMHO I think they should cut it back to 3, Super Record, Record and Centaur. The first 2 for the pros and the top amateurs and wannabies and centaur for the rest of us plebs. It would have to be more cost effective.
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby nsr0772 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:16 am

Hey......what about my chorus 11? :D

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby Daccordi Rider » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:30 am

Hightea said

"They're a smaller company with smaller volumes and higher labour costs. The fact that approximately equivalent groupsets cost approximately the same is not good news for Campag's long-term survival. Nor is the fact that they're in a game of catch-up (more speeds, more electronics, more carbon) with ShimRAM with no apparent end in sight. I think they're better off competing in niche areas.

Better ergonomics is a bad sign too. Better ergonomics are a competitive advantage approximately zero percent of the time. Most consumers just do not care.

Nothing against Campag, some of their track stuff is fairly high on my wish list, but they need to rethink things. If they are competing directly with Shimano they're doomed.[/quote]"

High tea, Didn't Campag run the wiring from hoods internally first, 11 sp first, so it's not oneway traffic with the catchup game..
Also re ergonomics I, and I suspect most buy Campag because of the ergonomics. The levers are a thing of beauty to use and hold compared to shimano's bulky uncomfortable hoods. The less said about Shimano's ugly cranks the better!
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:57 am

notwal wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:SO I SOLD MY RECORD QS EQUIPPED BIKE WHEN AL I NEEDED WAS A NEW CASSETTE AND R.D?!!!
To change to 11 speed? According to You-tube all you need is the ratchet wheel, a cassette and chain. But that's just according to You-tube. :shock:
You'd need the chain rings too I imagine. It would be interesting to have all that verified.
My knuckles are still upset at me from rebuilding my rear lever earlier this year. If I tell them this I'm worried I'll cop an upper cut :?
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby notwal » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:13 pm

Daccordi Rider wrote: High tea, Didn't Campag run the wiring from hoods internally first, 11 sp first, so it's not oneway traffic with the catchup game..
Also re ergonomics I, and I suspect most buy Campag because of the ergonomics. The levers are a thing of beauty to use and hold compared to shimano's bulky uncomfortable hoods. The less said about Shimano's ugly cranks the better!
Not a game of "catch up" but not "stay ahead" either. It still must be a struggle. If Campy can keep its nose above water while pricing on a par with Shimano then Shimano must be in hog heaven. That must make it easy for SRAM who continue to buy market share by pricing under the competition and spending on the pros.

As for the aesthetic, Campy does that very well. Shimano doesn't. That should be enough to make a difference.
Last edited by notwal on Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby biker jk » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:14 pm

The big problem for Campagnolo is that its sales are so small that there's no way it can compete with Shimano on R&D. It's amusing to hear from posters that its recent innovations include shift cable running along the bars and 11-speed when 60-years ago it invented the modern rear derailleur. Meanwhile, Shimano came up with indexed shifting, STI, Hyperglide, Hollowtech and electronic shifting before Campagnolo. It has spent a fortune for a small family business on developing electronic shifting and the returns will be slim at best and likely negative. Campagnolo's unit costs of production are substantially higher and it just doesn't do the volume to compensate for this and generate a reasonable return on capital.

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby Daccordi Rider » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:38 pm

Ok, I'm not sure what the point is here. Innovation wise no company can claim to be first on everything, cost wise like for like both competitive. Some prefer Campag, some Shimano. Campag is a smaller company but still there, still making great products and still competitive. To say Campag is behind the eight ball, too expensive or whatever is wrong. Am I missing something?
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:57 pm

Given that 90% of the gear we ride today can be claimed by Campagnolo, and that in the last 20 years they cracked 11sp but have fallen behind in being the innovators, they still build more functional and better quality componentry than anyone out there.
It would help them IMO if they got back into offroad gear again (loved their MTB gtoupsets), but apart from their market share (which is relevant to production output), they are doing very very well.
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby rustychisel » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:19 pm

Semar wrote:8 reasons why Campagnolo components are superior to 'other brands'.

1. Campagnolo shifters can be dismantled and repaired in most common repair scenarios, which includes worn out G springs, but not always. 'Other brands' are largely pressed together is just a dumb unsubstantiated slight.

2. Thus I can convert some levels of my 10 speed shifters to 11 by replacing one part if I can source the part and possess the requisite tools and skill.

3. I can use the same shifters on a double or triple crank but there is little doubt in my mind, having converted my principal road bike from Ultegra to Chorus in the last year, that Campagnolo front derailleur changing is quite average compared to Shimano's indexed affair, which when set up correctly is brilliant.

4. I can use my short cage derailleur on all campagnolo cassettes, including 13-29, if I am sure I can supply adequate chain length to accomodate these cogs and dependent also on the front chainring combination I am using.

5. Comparing Campagnolo wheels with 'other brands' one finds that they spin smoother and for far longer, but knowing that cheaper level Campagnolo wheels are no better or worse than cheaper 'other brand' wheels. Their top end wheelsets are things of beauty indeed, as are a number of other brands offerings. My partners 2008 Eurus are the equal of my 2004 Ksyrium SSC-SLs; no better nor worse, nor do the 'spin' any more, or less.

6. Appearance is subjective, but obviously Campagnolo's shiny components look better than anything else. :wink: Beautiful in some groupsets, yes, yet their current ultra-torque cranksets are chunky, visually unappealing, and use an absurd wire clip behind the drive side spider, a device which would be better off securing the door of the chook shed. The carbon Ergo's are lovely, yet when I polished a 9 speed Ultegra groupset prior to selling I marvelled at the beauty and precision of the forged componentry which looked and worked flawlessly after 15,000km.

7. One ''other brand', SRAM Red, looks VERY poorly finished. There seems a remarkable variation in then finishing quality of SRAM components, almost as if it were manufactured at 4 different facilities then mixed and matched. I have seen some appalling quality finishing, but then again, some excellent, irrespective of how it works.

8. Campagnolo is such a nice word to say.
but I still don't understand why so many cyclists write and refer to it as 'Campy' or 'Campag'. Sheer laziness or incipient idiocy?

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:53 pm

No.8 is a tad childish. Doodle Head :|
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby Daccordi Rider » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:59 pm

Vote #1 - Lazy 8)
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby notwal » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:03 pm

rustychisel et al wrote:
Semar wrote:8 reasons why Campagnolo components are superior to 'other brands'.
....
6. Appearance is subjective, but obviously Campagnolo's shiny components look better than anything else. :wink: Beautiful in some groupsets, yes, yet their current ultra-torque cranksets are chunky, visually unappealing, I strongly disagree. and use an absurd wire clip behind the drive side spider, a device which would be better off securing the door of the chook shed.Colourful hyperbole but really an absurd criticism. The Ultra Torque cranks are one of the easiest to install and remove.The carbon Ergo's are lovely, yet when I polished a 9 speed Ultegra groupset prior to selling I marvelled at the beauty and precision of the forged componentry which looked and worked flawlessly after 15,000km. It would have to be pretty trashy not to work after 15,000 km. Ultegra's ok. I don't like the modelling though and the scratch prone finish could be better.

8. Campagnolo is such a nice word to say.
but I still don't understand why so many cyclists write and refer to it as 'Campy' or 'Campag'. Sheer laziness or incipient idiocy? LOL You're probably not as obtuse as that statement suggests so I assume you're just being hyperbolic again.
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby high_tea » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:31 pm

Daccordi Rider wrote:Hightea said

"They're a smaller company with smaller volumes and higher labour costs. The fact that approximately equivalent groupsets cost approximately the same is not good news for Campag's long-term survival. Nor is the fact that they're in a game of catch-up (more speeds, more electronics, more carbon) with ShimRAM with no apparent end in sight. I think they're better off competing in niche areas.

Better ergonomics is a bad sign too. Better ergonomics are a competitive advantage approximately zero percent of the time. Most consumers just do not care.

Nothing against Campag, some of their track stuff is fairly high on my wish list, but they need to rethink things. If they are competing directly with Shimano they're doomed.
"

High tea, Didn't Campag run the wiring from hoods internally first, 11 sp first, so it's not oneway traffic with the catchup game..
Also re ergonomics I, and I suspect most buy Campag because of the ergonomics. The levers are a thing of beauty to use and hold compared to shimano's bulky uncomfortable hoods. The less said about Shimano's ugly cranks the better![/quote]

I totally agree about Shimano's ugly cranks. The only ones I can stand to look at are D-A track cranks. The rest seem to have gone through some wierd industrial process that involves repeated beating with an ugly stick. Sure, there are people who will buy based on ergonomics and more power to them, but (a) I don't think there are enough of them and (b) if Campag can't charge a premium for better ergonomics I can't see it doing their bottom line any good.

I didn't mean to imply that Campag was losing the catchup game, only that they're in a position where they have to play it and, are less able to afford it because they're a smaller company with higher labour costs.

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby high_tea » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:37 pm

rkelsen wrote:
high_tea wrote:They're a smaller company with smaller volumes and higher labour costs.
And a customer base which is clamoring all over itself for their stuff...
high_tea wrote:The fact that approximately equivalent groupsets cost approximately the same is not good news for Campag's long-term survival.
Their premium set has no competitor, and is priced accordingly.
high_tea wrote:Better ergonomics is a bad sign too. Better ergonomics are a competitive advantage approximately zero percent of the time. Most consumers just do not care.
You're ignoring the fact that in the current marketplace, they can't make things fast enough. The demand for their product is a high as ever, and showing no sign of slowing.
Being unable to meet demand is a good thing? I disagree.

They have smaller volumes and smaller margins. They either can't or won't (my money's on "can't") charge a premium over comparable ShimRAM products. They are, IMO, far better off concentrating on areas where they don't have direct competition and/or consumers aren't as price-sensitive (like track and the high end). I'm reminded of a story about Aston Martin; an A-M fanboy contacted the company with some story, wanting a car at cost price. Sure, they said, that'll be another 400 pounds :shock: Demand for a product is great, but it's no substitute for a sustainable business model.

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby MichaelB » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:23 pm

In the end for me (at the moment anyway) all the discussion is moot.

Regardless of the quality, soul & sex appeal, I won't be using Campagnolo in the near future. Already have 2 Shimano equipped bikes, and have no issues.

I tried Campagnolo a little while ago, and couldn't do the thumb bit. Didn't work for my mitts.

Whilst the shift down more than two gears at a time is a feature, not sure how much of a feature it is.

I'm a pretty happy Shimano camper at the monet, and a hydro STI will make me even happier :D

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby CommuRider » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:50 pm

8. Campagnolo is such a nice word to say but I still don't understand why so many cyclists write and refer to it as 'Campy' or 'Campag'. Sheer laziness or incipient idiocy?

Because mono-lingual Aussies can't pronounce bloody continental European words. I'd rather hear Campy than Cam-PAG-no-lo. The latter bloody grates. Say Cam-pa-nyo-lo with the accent per favore. Happy to have the Aussie versions of Pugs instead of pathetic pronounciated attempts at Pew-jot instead of Po-zho.

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby notwal » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:05 pm

CommuRider wrote:
8. Campagnolo is such a nice word to say but I still don't understand why so many cyclists write and refer to it as 'Campy' or 'Campag'. Sheer laziness or incipient idiocy?

Because mono-lingual Aussies can't pronounce bloody continental European words. I'd rather hear Campy than Cam-PAG-no-lo. The latter bloody grates. Say Cam-pa-nyo-lo with the accent per favore. Happy to have the Aussie versions of Pugs instead of pathetic pronounciated attempts at Pew-jot instead of Po-zho.

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby CommuRider » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:10 pm

:lol:
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby notwal » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:37 pm

:D Thanks for that. It takes me back.
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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby rkelsen » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:40 pm

high_tea wrote:Demand for a product is great, but it's no substitute for a sustainable business model.
How do you know that their current business model is unsustainable?

You haven't a clue. Nobody outside the Campagnolo family knows how much profit they make (except, maybe, their accountant and a few staff members of the 'Agenzia delle Entrate' in Vicenza).

And, let's face it, they'd have to be making something otherwise they wouldn't have been around for 68 years. Good on them, I say, for not following the crowd to China. Mr. Campagnolo clearly understands the importance of domestic manufacturing, and the benefit it provides to the local community. More businesses should be run that way. The world would be a better place for it.
Last edited by rkelsen on Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bicycling Mag article: Can Campagnolo Survive?

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:44 pm

MichaelB wrote:In the end for me (at the moment anyway) all the discussion is moot.

Regardless of the quality, soul & sex appeal, I won't be using Campagnolo in the near future. Already have 2 Shimano equipped bikes, and have no issues.

I tried Campagnolo a little while ago, and couldn't do the thumb bit. Didn't work for my mitts.

Whilst the shift down more than two gears at a time is a feature, not sure how much of a feature it is.

I'm a pretty happy Shimano camper at the monet, and a hydro STI will make me even happier :D
Pretty much applies to me as well, tho' I note that the release lever on their battery stuff looks to be lower. I have no objection to the feel of Shamino hoods or STI ergonomics, never ghost shifted while trying to brake.
CommuRider wrote:Say Cam-pa-nyo-lo with the accent per favore.
Always have, even before I met the Italian GLW. In text, I abbreviate 'cos I'm lazy. If the intent and meaning is understood then there's no drama.
Most French people I've had contact with don't give a rats about "mono-lingual Aussies" and haven't since events around the town of "Wipers" and district back in mid to late 1917. :wink:
rkelson wrote:And, let's face it, they'd have to be making something otherwise they wouldn't have been around for 68 years. Good on them, I say, for not following the crowd to China. Mr. Campagnolo clearly understands the importance of domestic manufacturing, and the benefit it provides to the local community. More businesses should be run that way. The world would be a better place for it.
Damn right. Should I ever grow longer thumbs or have the lottery fall my way I will buy Campag for just those reasons.
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