Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

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plasmapuff
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Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:23 pm

Hi guys,

So I'm on holidays for 5 weeks and thought I'd build up a bike in the meantime :) I have a housebrand generic aluminium with carbon forks frame at the moment with old reliable 9 speed 105.

After riding carbon fibre from a friend, I loved the feel but wanted something a bit more sturdy. Thus this titanium idea. I stumbled across a company called Waltly Titanium who do custom frames for about $720US shipped ($580 frame + $110 shipping + 4.4% payapal). I've heard some pretty good rep from them and seem to be cheaper and friendlier than XACD.
http://waltly.en.alibaba.com/productgro ... Frame.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After close to 50 emails back and forth I've finally settled on a design - which I based off the Van Nicholas Astraeus (http://www.vannicholas.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) except made it 51cm (I'm 172cm), which was in between their standard 50 and 52cm sizes.
https://www.evernote.com/Home.action#st ... 232fb885ed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

This is the CAD drawing they generated: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yyhCE ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They've forgotten internal routing and have the 3rd set of holes for the frame pump on the top tube instead of the seat tube but aside from that can you see anything else wrong?

The only other issue I can see is the tightness between the chain stays and the chain rings. I'm using a compact 50/34 at the moment but may consider using something more conventional in the future like a 53/39. They've modelled it further and have said that there is supposedly 10mm of clearance? Still looks pretty tight in the pics- should I ask for 20mm to be safe?
Image

Getting so excited! I've ordered the Ultegra 6800 11 speed group set from PBK last week (on special for $688 shipped with 15% off code) and have a small order of stems/seatposts etc ready on wiggle for about 100 pounds. They're also including a spare integrated headset, spare replaceable derailleur hanger and a generic carbon fork for $80.

Let me know what you think! :) I'll be updating this post as all the parts come along and I put it all together. Total cost is prob about $1600 sans wheels which I'll be using my existing Prolite bracchianos.

cheers :)

I'll post updates on here as I put it all together.
Last edited by plasmapuff on Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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SquareWheels
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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby SquareWheels » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:36 pm

I am looking forward to seeing the updates. How much will the frame weigh?
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plasmapuff
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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoted ~1400g. From people who have ordered it varies from 1400g to about 1600g depending on the size of the frame.

Write up about Waltly here:
http://www.spanner.org.uk/2012/03/galle ... rom-china/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby Jonno » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:07 pm

Interesting to see how you go. I've stalled in my order with them as there was business on facebook about their lead technical guys running away with samples and technical know-how to start another company!?

You can also get generic forks from dengfu, along with handlebars, spacers, seat posts etc. If you fancy it. That's my plan. I've already got one of their fm098 kits and it's pretty good.

Mods should probably move this to the "Custom Builders" section?

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby Crawf » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:04 pm

Fire up a new thread pp - viewforum.php?f=66" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Looking forward to seeing this one.
My next proj won't be far off, no more carbon frames for me... well until the itch returns.

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby barefoot » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:43 pm

I'd have them draw it up with 39/53 chain rings to verify that they fit. That's the worst case (ie if they fit you'll have no trouble running compacts), so if you have any intention of ever going there, I'd want to see it on the drawing rather than just taking their word for it.

That's an area I didn't pay any attention to on my XACD custom. They drew it up with an un-labelled crankset, showing heaps of room. In retrospect, I realise it must have been a MTB crankset (since the back end of my disc-road bike is kind of similar to a MTB, so it makes sense they just copied that part of an existing MTB drawing, crankset and all). My 34T chainring rubbed the chainstay, and I had to bodge it with spacers to offset the crank to the drive side. Now I'm running a road triple, and it _just_ clears.

The front end of your bike will be very stiff - all the tubes are another size bigger than mine (I agreed to the default 38.1 down- and seat-tube, 31.8 top-tube, all 0.9mm). I don't have a problem with stiffness, but that's down to taste and preference. Back end is similar, other than your tapered chainstays and my disc-mount dropouts.

Mine weighed 1575g in a weird 54x50-ish size, with heavy overbuilt rear dropouts. Your tubes will probably be about the same as mine (gain some on swings, lose some on roundabout), so I'm guessing low 1500s for the finished frame with more sensible dropouts.

You'll love it.

tim

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby Crawf » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:51 pm

I'm confident your frame won't be overly stiff pp.
From experience with numerous China Ti frames, yours will be stiff where it needs to be & when you want to be, but still retain a lovely ride quality, essentially stiff but still very efficient at reducing road buzz which is what we all want. Plus you have spec'd S-stays and 16mm seatstays.
The first one I had made is still the most comfortable frame I have ridden and felt no less stiff to any carbon frame I had ridden. It had an oversized DT, 34mm ST, 38mm TT & 22x1.6/1.2mm rear triangle (overbuilt).
I now lean towards comfort over stiffness but not too extremely, I'm sure you'll love it.

My money is on around 1500g.

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:54 pm

Thanks everyone for the comments :)

I'm mighty looking forward to it too!

I've asked them to model 53/39 chainrings to avoid any issue clearance issues.

Probably stick to allow stem/handlebars/seatposts for the moment - there isn't really all that much of a weight saving (3-400g combined?) and I'm looking to avoid carbon components where possible. Seen too much broken carbon things.

Thoughts on the finish and etching? I was planning to keep it brushed Ti for the ageless look and so you can buff any scratches off, but I'm open to suggestions. Cheesy branding or not? :P

Will post an updated CAD when they revise it for me:)

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby RonK » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:52 pm

How do you order a custom frame? Is there an order page somewhere, or is it all done by email?
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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:34 pm

RonK wrote:How do you order a custom frame? Is there an order page somewhere, or is it all done by email?
Via Email.

They have a alibaba website:
http://waltly.en.alibaba.com/productgro ... Frame.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/Waltly.Ticycle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the most reliable is email:
waltly_sale01@waltly1688.com.cn
Its Sumi at the moment who is on sales while Jenny is away.

At first I was a bit skeptical too but if you google around and talk to people like Crawf who have ordered before, they have a pretty good rap.

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Latest updated CAD with optional rear disc brake mounts as well. Thanks to Crawf - thought I might future proof it as much as possible :P

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yyhCE ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They still are modelling the compact chainset which I will email them again to model 53/39T to ensure adequate clearance.

They did send me this weird email though today:
One question: for the inner tube, we usually make both side of the frame. Sometime we will try one side. But if you need V-brakes and disc brakes, I am afraid the inner tube is not large enough for one side. So we suggest make an inner cable stop both side, not only just left. The problem is that if you use V brake and Disc brake at the same time, the inner cable tube is not big enough for four lines. If you will not use the brakes at the same time, that would be fine. we will design one side as you like.
I have zero experience with disc brakes, but I thought they were meant to replace the existing calliper brakes, so you wouldn't be running both at once?

Let me know your thoughts/if you pick up anything weird :) Hopefully will be able to confirm and get this baby built in the coming week :)

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby barefoot » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:12 pm

Something to ponder - there's not many disc brake hubs that are 130mm wide. That's road spacing. MTB hubs are 135mm.

130mm disc was a short-term transitional thing when they just started putting discs on road bikes. Now it's becoming established, it seems everybody is settling on 135mm for disc road bikes.

You can get non-disc 135mm hubs (MTB have been that wide since forever, before discs existed), so if you went 135mm you can run rim brakes without having to have vestigial disc mounts looking out of place unused on your wheels. 135mm does move your cassette 2.5mm outboard, which technically messes up your chainline, but it's only by 2.5mm.

I wouldn't use the term "future proof" when looking at a 130mm disc frame.

Sorry to complicate things for you :-P

tim
whose XACD disc-braked road bike rolls on MTB hubs

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:30 am

Thanks for the reply and insights barefoot. I've been reading your thread too and the completed build looks fantastic. Hopefully I can emulate this :P

This is indeed something to ponder. After doing a bit of reading these are my options I think.

1) 130mm - The benefit of this would be that it fits with all my current wheels. Apparently Novatec do 130mm hubs which are compatible with disc brakes? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Novatec-D351 ... 0898694220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Is this a viable solution should I want to use disc brakes in the future?

2) 132.5mm - Is the middle ground and apparently you can use both 130mm and 135mm hubs with it. Surly and Litespeed both have 132.5mm spaced frames for this purpose.
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37327" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=57899.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://road.cc/content/news/51133-sneak ... 2013-frame" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like the perfect solution? Unfortunately both Justin Burls (custom Ti frame maker of Burls in the UK) and David Yates (custom frame UK frame builder) have said that "the 132.5mm midpoint setting would always stress the frame and the dropouts would never be parallel to the hubs." despite some builders like litespeed and surly adopting this option.

3) 135mm - Affects the chainline not insignificantly according to this article, especially as I'll be running 11 speed. http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/11/28/tec ... -shifting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; While it probably is the future, we're not quite there yet and means I'll have to have my factory wheels all modified. :(

I'm not sure what to do at the moment.
Thinking either leave it at 130mm and use the novatech hubs if needs be in the future or going 132.5mm and risking it?
Other option I'm contemplating is to leave disc brake options out altogether seeing as its primarily a road/training/?race bike with aggressive geometry (based on VN Astraeus) and to accept that it can't be the perfect road/commute/cyclocross frame without making significant compromises which affect its ability to perform in each role. I've already optioned pannier and mudguard mounts for possible use as a commuter so leave it at that?

Arggghhh help :P

Thanks indeed for raising this issue barefoot :P

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby barefoot » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:57 am

For sure, there are 130mm disc hubs in existence, but I wouldn't rely on them being available long-term. Like obscure wheel sizes, headsets and crank/BB attachment standards, they will become hard to find in future, because there are not many bikes out in the wild that need that particular hub, making it uneconomical to produce and carry stock of them.

Even in the early days of disc brakes, some brands went with a 4-bolt attachment pattern, which had all necessary spare parts available at the time. The majority went with 6-bolt, and it became standard. It's still possible to find 4-bolt rotors if you look hard enough, but they're a bit of an oddity.

The 132.5 spacing nay-sayers are technically correct, but I question the significance of the bee-dick scale issues they mention. Flexing each chainstay by 1.25mm is really not very much, and the angles involved are almost nothing. Princess and pea stuff. Still, I've never been really keen on the idea of making it "near enough" for both. Don't get me wrong, I'm always up for a bodge (I ran a 126mm hub in 135mm dropouts for a while, and it didn't kill me or any of the parts), but that was a deliberate kludge fit. When I built my own bike I wanted everything to fit properly.

To be honest, if I had existing high-ish end road wheels (and brakes) and was building a road frame to fit them, I'd probably stick with road standards and forget the disc thing. N+1 a disc-brake CX frame later if you need one :-D

Also to note - seat-stay mounted disc calipers don't play well with pannier racks. You can work around, but it's a work-around.

In other news - I love the breezer dropouts. Wish I had bothered figuring out a way to get them (with chainstay disc mount and some kind of pannier mounting arrangement).

tim

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby Crawf » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:07 am

Yep, panniers and disc brake may not play together nicely later on.
Could move the mount in between the seat and chain stay?...
Image

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:50 pm

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions guys.

I'm thinking of going with 132.5mm at the moment.

All up my compromises to get it commuter/cyclocross capable I don't think have detracted that much from the original VN astraeus racing frame.
- +disc brake, pannier and mudguard mounts = +100g on the frame?
- lengthened chainstays to 415 from 405 to fit 28mm tyres if required in the future
- 132.5mm - would still fit 130mm wheels.

Will talk to Waltly and update everyone soon :)

Thanks again for all the constructive feedback. I would be so lost otherwise :P

In the interim, here's the latest CAD with the updated 53.39T showing adequate clearance relative to the chainstays.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yyhCE ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cheers
Julian

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:43 am

Update:

So I asked them to do 132.5mm hub spacing and the drop out like the one pictured above
They said they could something similar like this Image.

However, when trying to fit a 135mm hub in conjunction with a 28mm tyre they highlighted inadequate clearance of the chainstays with the cranks :( The work around for this would be to change the geometry or altering the tube sizes of the chainstays to something smaller. Alternatively they could reduce the S bend of the chainstays if I specced for 25mm as opposed to 28mm tyres.

Overall, I'm getting the impression that making the frame disc brake compatible is more trouble than its worth. For me this bike was primarily meant to be a road/training/racing/ + possible commuter bike. In the order of priorities, disc brakes are to be honest way way down on the list and was more of a "nice to have" for future proofing sort of concept. Even without disc brakes, speccing for pannier and fender mounts and lengthening the chainstay (415 vs 405mm) to accommodate 28mm tyres is probably more important for its role as a commuter than disc brakes.

Hmm so I might regretfully ask them to drop the disc brake option for now - unless there was another way?

Would love to hear your thoughts! :)

cheers
Julian

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:58 am

Just noticed they have a Flickr page which shows the integrated disc brake dropout more clearly
http://www.flickr.com/photos/waltly/9684440744/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's their album for some of their other work:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/waltly/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking at it closely I did notice some cable stops/barrel adjusters on the L chainstay. I thought with internal routing the cabling sits inside the chainstays and exits something like this?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/pho ... nge/261954
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yyhCE ... sp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Or am I reading it wrong?

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby simonn » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:15 am

plasmapuff wrote:For me this bike was primarily meant to be a road/training/racing/ + possible commuter bike.
IMHO, the only reason to have a "road" bike with discs is if commuting is at the top of the list, and then only if you plan on commuting in all weather.

Chainline is noticeably affected by 135mm spacing with a road groupset.

This is with 2-3 years experience with a disc brake cyclocross (along with multiple road bikes).

EDIT:

Why not go for disc brake on the front and rim brake on the rear? Would solve the hub spacing issue, reduce some weight and still give you excellent braking...?

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:27 am

Disc front, rim rear. Get the goodness where it's most needed.
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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby The 2nd Womble » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:55 am

Flat Earthers!






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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby barefoot » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:15 am

Mulger bill wrote:Disc front, rim rear. Get the goodness where it's most needed.
+1

Mullet brakes. :lol:

The only downside would be that the rear caliper limits your ability to run big CX tyres if you ever wanted to do that... but it sounds like the frame isn't going to let you run big CX tyres anyway.

I'd run it with normal road wheels for now and normal road calipers, and if you ever do decide to go with the mullet brakes, you can just swap in a disc-compatible fork and front wheel.

I had mullet brakes on my MTB for years. Disc front, V rear. I'm about to move that wheel and brake on to the front of the Mrs' MTB (which is still running Vs but is due a fork upgrade).

tim

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby simonn » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:48 pm

barefoot wrote: The only downside would be that the rear caliper limits your ability to run big CX tyres if you ever wanted to do that... but it sounds like the frame isn't going to let you run big CX tyres anyway.
Mini-Vs ...?

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby plasmapuff » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:19 pm

simonn wrote: IMHO, the only reason to have a "road" bike with discs is if commuting is at the top of the list, and then only if you plan on commuting in all weather.
Why not go for disc brake on the front and rim brake on the rear? Would solve the hub spacing issue, reduce some weight and still give you excellent braking...?
+1. Thanks for the input! That sounds like the perfect plan. My commute is relatively simple anyways (12km) and given the road I don't intend to commute in the wet anyways :)

Okies will finalise this with Waltly and post the final updated CAD.

Other random thought- decals or no decals? If so, should I design my own or copy say a Moots/VN one? :P Waltly say they will sandblast whatever you want for +$20.

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Re: Custom Titanium Road Bike Project (ref: VN Astraeus)

Postby moya » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:43 pm

plasmapuff wrote:
simonn wrote: Other random thought- decals or no decals? If so, should I design my own or copy say a Moots/VN one? :P Waltly say they will sandblast whatever you want for +$20.
I prefer no decals, but your last comment got me thinking - would they engrave your name/contact details/licence number or some other identifying information on the frame? I assume as a custom job these frames don't already have serial numbers under the bottom bracket.

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