Idiotic light rail

[lobstermash]

Firstly, let me decare that I'm a south sider...

Secondly, $614 million for 12.6km of tramway from Gunghalin to Civic... That's just horrendous. It was only half a decade ago that I laughed at 'Canberra Peak half-hour'. With an estimated less than 1% cost:benefit, sadly they'd be better off just widening a certain road... again.

For those interested in getting around without being trapped in a metal box, it costs approximatey $1.5 million per km to build off-road shared paths in most Australian cities. Unfortunately we don't have anywhere to put over 400km of shared path that could be built with light rail money (that we don't have). And with the estimated saving in various costs to a state/territory government of around $1.40 per km travelled by bicycle, what on earth would our little territory do with all that unspent money if people started using such infratructure???

[Ross]

Don't get all logical mate!

I agree that the light rail is a waste of money (I live in Gungahlin...). Who's going to spend 15 mins driving from their outer Gungahlin suburb to EPIC to park their car and spend another 20 mins or so on a tram to Civic where they get off and either spend another 15 mins walking to their office or then get on a bus and go to Woden/Tuggernaong/airport/other destination? They may as well stay in their car and drive door to door in half an hour (Civic, a bit longer obviously for other areas). OK they will probably have to pay for parking, but the alternative is to pay for tram fare (+ buses if going further than Civic) which will work out much the same cost with far less convenience.

[ACT SC600]

While light rail may not be the answer... The question needs to change... Not how many cars can we fit down that road.... How many ppl can we fit... The bike is not always the answer but using bus, road, rail and bike (or a combination) may be the answer.... I'm actually all for it... The amount of ppl that can fit on light rail compared to a car/bus..... But that's my opinion

Cheers

[lobstermash]

Light rail is just silly, because they could build bus ways much cheaper, at the end of which the bus can hop on a road and travel anywhere... Trams are the gift card of the transport world...

[skull]

Don't talk to me about this white elephant.

As a contractor I am now going to be $15k a year out of pocket from the changes to the payroll tax exemption to fund this bloody thing.

[nescius]

Don't talk to me about this white elephant.

As a contractor I am now going to be $15k a year out of pocket from the changes to the payroll tax exemption to fund this bloody thing.

Tell me about it, this came up just after I'd signed a 12 month extension... too late to renegotiate my rate! Now I'm stuck with a massive pay cut

[Ross]

While light rail may not be the answer... The question needs to change... Not how many cars can we fit down that road.... How many ppl can we fit... The bike is not always the answer but using bus, road, rail and bike (or a combination) may be the answer.... I'm actually all for it... The amount of ppl that can fit on light rail compared to a car/bus..... But that's my opinion

Cheers

They could just buy a few more buses and hire a few more drivers for a fraction of the cost of the trams. The trams can only travel on the dedicated tram lines, buses can go wherever there is a road.

Maybe govco needs to encourage car pooling by giving incentives such as tax breaks.

Also tax breaks to people like ourselves that ride bikes to work.

Only problem with tax breaks is they need to recoup the money from us in some other way. Maybe they can put the price of cigarettes up to $50 a pack!

[lobstermash]

Oh my... Capital Metro have been bold enough to put up a Facebook page and ask for opinions. Unfortunately, they are only looking for 'constructive discussion', which is code for periodically deleting all the posts that say why light rail is a bad idea...

FYI my post, in case it get gets deleted:

Why trams? Why not dedicated bus ways? At the end of the bus ways, said buses could then drive on (shock horror) roads that already exist... Some actual serious investment in bicycle paths would be a nice and cheap alternative. According to the Australian Government's Active Travel report (July 2013), it costs $1.5 million per km to build off road shared paths, and saves (mostly the) state/territory government $1.43 per km cycled or $2.12 per km walked. In France, the government is paying people to cycle to work (0.25 Euro/$AU0.36 per km). For the ~$600 mil proposed to be spent on the ~12 km first stage of light rail, 166,666,666,667 km of cycling could be purchased, which would save the ACT government $2,383,333,333 gross, or $1,783,333,333 net assuming full take-up. What was the cost:benefit of light rail again???

[Thoglette]

Lobster,

While bike facilities need fighting for, you're not going to find many supporters for beating up light rail from anywhere larger than Canberra.

[lobstermash]

you're not going to find many supporters for beating up light rail from anywhere larger than Canberra.

Fo Riz? Have you visited Adelaide in the last few years?

[Howzat]

Must drive planners bonkers: you have hands-down worst-congested roads between Gungahlin and the city, but try to come up with a proposal to move people - in anything at all other than cars, that is - and as if on cue the wobbly-voiced whining starts up about why not 400km of bike paths? Why not bus lanes? Why not monorails, or google cars, or my other nerdy personal transportation preference?

I mean, do you think light rail means the end of bike paths? Why is it reflexively one against the other? Don't get that kind of thinking.

...although I will say southsiders may have this as a case... if the Gungahlin route up Flemington road raises property values there by about 6%, that means Gungahlinites alone will have pocketed the entire $614 million public cost of construction as private capital gains.

That's a sweet deal. Hope they remember to thank the Vikings!

[ColinOldnCranky]

$1.5 million per km to build off-road shared paths in most Australian cities.

Where did you get that? Is that CBD, inner city or general urban.

I ask because we in WA have been given $50,000 per km for simple PSP city area upping to $100,000 where there are particular difficulties in maintaining traffic separation (needing bridges and tunnels etc). $1.5m is 15 to 30 times that.

(My numbers from the Department of Transport at a public release of the state's draft bike plan.)

[lobstermash]

I'd be very surprised if light rail was a solution proposed by town planners, not that I'd be listening to them if they're the same people who 'planned' the expansion of the northern suburbs. If there's space to put a light rail line in, there's space to put in a bus only lane in the same spot. It's obvious that decent off road bike paths isn't the total solution, but neither is an expensive and unprofitable light rail system.

I thought the $1.5 mil per km was from the Australian Government Active Transport report, but I could be mixing my sources. It included purchasing the land to build the path on. The 4 km Civic bike path loop that the ACT Government is currently building is supposed to be costing ~$6 mil.

[Thoglette]

[quote="lobstermash"] If there's space to put a light rail line in, there's space to put in a bus only lane in the same spot./quote]

And that is a "good start" - allocating sufficient space is the number one issue.

And the reason light rail is always "too expensive" - either the land is cheap but there's "no demand' or it's an expensive buy-back with the added joy of "brownfields" construction (think sewer and power realignment).

I'm not down on using buses in a dedicated space allocated for a future light rail system.

[Ross]

There's not only the capital cost of buying the trams and building associated infastructure, there are ongoing costs like staff and maintenance. ACTION buses run at a multi-million dollar loss each year, how is a tram system that can only travel 10km in each direction on one particular route going to go?

[Thoglette]

.... ACTION buses run at a multi-million dollar loss each year, how is a tram system that can only travel 10km in each direction on one particular route going to go?

Now, tell me again: How much profit does NSW's RMS or the roads part of TAMS make every year?

Thought so.

[citywomble]

ACTION buses run at a multi-million dollar loss each year,

Yes, and that's called a subsidy.

Funny that when you consider the much greater sums spent (from general revenue not road tax) that are actually a massive subsidy to private individuals to drive air conditioned armchairs. I am sure if the true cost, per person, was calculated the private vehicle subsidy would be higher per mile than PT.

It's about time our pollies grew up and and did the maths.

[Thoglette]

It's about time our pollies grew up and and did the maths.

And probably the only silver lining to the loss of car manufacturing jobs is that those jobs will no longer be biasing other government policy decisions.

[lobstermash]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-15/p ... on/5597168" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[m@]

I'm just gonna leave this here...

80,000 people pack Gold Coast trams for its first day of passenger services and more crowd on today as paid services kick off

/walks away whistling nonchalantly

[jindydiver]

...although I will say southsiders may have this as a case... if the Gungahlin route up Flemington road raises property values there by about 6%, that means Gungahlinites alone will have pocketed the entire $614 million public cost of construction as private capital gains.

That's a sweet deal. Hope they remember to thank the Vikings!

With the changes to rates (removal of stamp duty and increases to rates) the people who "enjoy" the increase in land values will also soon be helping to fill the budget hole this light rail is digging.

[Ross]

http://www.pedalpower.org.au/news/pedal ... ight-rail/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure if this means they will have a dedicated carriage specifically for bikes or just a rack on the front like buses have now. I'm betting on the latter.