Elizabeth Quay almost opened

SimoneF
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SimoneF » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:10 am

I have no contempt for pedestrians, I am one. If my bike is out of action, I walk the hour home from Reid Road/Horrie Miller Drive roundabout to Queens Park, I always keep left for cyclists on the sidewalk, don't wear headphones, don't stare head down at a phone. I would never speed and endanger a person on the new EQ bridge.

What bemuses me is why each road improvement project that this liberal government does, seem to be 'gifting' road and PSP cyclists LESS access than before.

Take EQ, there was a perfectly good smooth, relatively direct, PSP along the river. Now its a winding, badly surfaced indirect area and cyclists have to go much slower than they were before on the old PSP. They just cut the path! And in its spot is a lovely bridge, no doubt, but can cyclists also get the level of infrastructure (PSP) that existed before, back?

Example 2: Gateway WA, where I once happily shared Kewdale road with motorists, up to the Tonkin Hwy lights where it becomes Horrie Miller Drive, NOW is a huge overpass that has a sign saying 'ALL BIKES', with an arrow that points me to the white concrete footpath coated in pea gravel, after which comes a zebra crossing, two sets of lights and another zebra crossing ( always a confusing nightmare... car are you going to stop yes, no, yes no, okay ill dismount so you'll stop) to get over the overpass (I understand this is a major bridge and road building project)

And it is almost exactly the same on the other side, instead, the sign is just the bike symbol in a circle with a big slash through it - directly me over to the other side of the road to the concrete footpath. Again, the infrastructure (the road I was previously allowed to cycle on) has been 'removed' and my access now is less direct, more hazardous and more bumpy. Oh but every ones safer coz the damn cyclists' are off the road (!) Is this fair?

I am a very good cyclist, I road cycle along Kewdale Road to the airport with double axle, triple axle trucks on a twice daily, 5 day a week basis. No delineated bike lane, certainly no bike path, and the footpath is more like a series of sunken driveways connected by some cracked concrete, sometime on one side sometimes on the other. Never had a honk, fall, close call or abuse from anyone in the 8 years I have been down this route.

So I'm trying to figure out how the Liberal party's claims of "building a better connected, safer for cyclist etc etc" are actually true, because from my experience I don't see it. I'm not asking for millions and millions, just it should be intelligently built into the design in the first place.

SimoneF
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SimoneF » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:19 am

I realise the government has funded kilometres of PSP along other parts of this Gateway, I jealously watch this beautifully smooth path getting slowly built down underneath me, as I ride on the overpass concrete pea gravel footpath... sigh.

SimoneF
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SimoneF » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:38 am

I think the crux of the argument is; 'Is the Elizabeth Quay/Bridge a Net Gain or Net Loss for a typical commuter cyclist? If you think okay, you LOST the PSP but you GAINED the connection back, yeah granted, but the connection is to a LESSER standard than it was before (for a cyclist). So its a Net Loss for a cyclist, I don't believe many cyclists would say; 'yeah it's much easier to cycle through here than it was before' ?

Perth councils/gov/gov depts. need to be ensuring there is not net loss of infrastructure or access with each road development or pet project (if we really want to get more people cycling) The commuter cannot be disregarded or left uncatered for anymore, at least I thought that show we were meant to be progressing. One can dream.

I am very interested to see how this Minister Dean Nalder project of raising the Causeway for better boat access will develop. Considering that currently cyclists/pedestrians are greeted by a blood boiling sign 'Beware Uneven Surface' signs upon entry and exit. I mean City of Perth/Vic PK whatever should stop telling us about it and DO something about it!
Now there is a project, if it was to go ahead, that would surely have to be a Net Gain for a commuter cyclist, as they would loose the narrow wide broken paving path but gain back a smooth new wider path in its place (Am I dreaming?) That would have to increase the amount of people who would cycle it.

Hence why I would love (if possible) to see a count on the new EQ bridge and the Esplanade Rd to see if both those number together would equal or be less trips than what was estimated to go through the Riverside Drive PSP before EQ construction :)

softy
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:27 am

@colin

yes agreed i should only referred to the act or code as the code is not technically the law although it is far more complex if it gets into a court room. In the case of the quay, it may come under the city of Perth legisation.

what i was pointing out and is commonly done here on this forum, is bicycles are mentally seperated by view point or opinion on this forum quite often. Now this can be advantageous when talking about design, but to make distincts on how you think a certain bike has to be used related to your own opinion of convience really does annoy me.

To say a sub class of bike should or has to be used this way is to me just enflaming the conflict between different bikes we ride.

eg: roadies should be on the road they ride to fast
MTB is for off road what are you doing on the road.
ETC

whilst there is no law or requirement to do so, in fact most lay people who don't ride at all wouldn't even make a distinction between them, they are all bikes. We all need to realise we are all riding a bike, using the same iinfrustructure, all pedalling, all going somewhere.

The quay is very pretty and it is a real rubberneck for peds and alike at the moment, but it is true it has been designed as a show piece, not to allow convenient commuting access for peds and cyclists along the rivers edge. The bridge is very wide and could of been divided to seperate peds and bikes and define a cycle path each side of the bridge on the cobble stones, but this wouldn't look as nice.

Sinner
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Sinner » Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:13 am

The wayfinding through the quay for cyclists is very poor. There needs to be more signage or markings. I commented on the pram ramps at Barrack Square it realising you aren't shown the route through! Clearly there is more work to do. A n d it's ridiculous the guards telling cyclists to get off and walk across the bridge when it isn't busy.

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Thoglette
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Thoglette » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:11 pm

SimoneF wrote:I am very interested to see how this Minister Dean Nalder project of raising the Causeway for better boat access will develop.
He's got plenty of transportation projects[1] that would actually improve transportation he can't/won't find money for.

This is either a smoke screen or proof that he's (yet another) fool making "captains calls" on unjustifiable projects.
SimoneF wrote:Considering that currently cyclists/pedestrians are greeted by a blood boiling sign 'Beware Uneven Surface' signs upon entry and exit. I mean City of Perth/Vic PK whatever should stop telling us about it and DO something about it!
The answer for the causeway is clear and has been clear to all levels of govt for almost a year[2]: a separate, wide ped + PSP bridge is required.

[1] to name a few that I'm familiar with
1. Outer harbour & bonded rail link to customs container clearance site in Kewdale/Welshpool
2. Southern Ring rail (which was budgetted to cost less than the Airport Driveway upgrade or the airport tunnel, including the airport rail link)
3. Passenger rail into Ellenbrook (even via spur from existing northern rail corridor)
4. Hutton street PSP fix
5. PSP fix at City West (why this isn't in the BWA top ten I don't know)
6. Light rail in Osborne Park
And you can pull out any local gov't bike or light rail plan to find a dozen more.

[2] As included in the DoT workshop outcomes from Apr 2015
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worzel
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby worzel » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:47 pm

I was lucky enough to be offered a ride on a mate's boat into the quay yesterday. There was a bloke with a hooter yelling at everyone that entered to slow down (we were only doing 4 knots in a 5 knot zone) and about three people came running down the ramps as we moored to shout at us again for that and also to tell us we were only allowed to stay for 3 hours (we were only staying for 10 minutes to buy ice creams). The water fountains have been taken out of action due to bacteria and the grass laid a week ago is all brown. So cycling isn't the only thing that has teething problems in the area. Looks nice though.

billy70
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby billy70 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:55 pm

Had my first ride through there today and agree with Softy and Sinner. It really does look good and I believe it is a great enhancement to Perth's waterfront ... but it clearly has low utility for cyclists. I'll not be riding through there regularly as its not designed for it and not safe to do so at anything above the speed of a meandering walk. I can't really see how cycling could really be integrated as its so much a pedestrian area, a bit like Hay St and Murray St mall. On balance, I'm ok with that and will go around in the future.
Image

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:22 pm

softy wrote:@colin

yes agreed i should only referred to the act or code as the code is not technically the law although it is far more complex if it gets into a court room. In the case of the quay, it may come under the city of Perth legisation.
I think I have confused you for the sake of semantics. The code is still enforceable and will not carry less weight just because it is regulation instead of an act. There are probably more restrictions on you and I that is laid down in regulation than in the enabling Acts.
softy wrote:The bridge is very wide and could of been divided to seperate peds and bikes and define a cycle path each side of the bridge on the cobble stones, but this wouldn't look as nice.
Following on from my earlier comment though, to what purpose? The separated space is less than eighty metres, and a cyclist should be riding at a moderate speed each side of that eighty metres. So a separation will give you nothing but a short sprint up to some speed and a rapid deceleration. What? 40m of speed? Sorry, not worth the compromises. And it would simply give rise to confusion as to how to treat the space and, like it or not, the space is safe-pedestrian-friendly.

Simone will not find many disagreeing with her assessment later made using other examples that the current government does little for cyclists. Nor that it fraudulently trumpets it's bad choices and inaction and last minute papering over as progressively cycle and public transport friendly. With the state of the treasury when Colin came to the crease, his score is a duck on the most batter friendly wicket ever.
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Thoglette
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Thoglette » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:06 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:There are probably more restrictions on you and I that is laid down in regulation than in the enabling Acts.
#IANAL
That's the idea. The law creates a regulator, whose role is to make regulations which have the weight of law.

In some fields there are also "codes of practice" which set out example compliant behaviour. Not specifically law but a line in the sand from a perspective of negligance claims and what a "reasonable person" might expect.

Where it gets confusing in this case is that the key set of regulations is called the "Road Traffic Code". But this is very much regulation and has all the "rules" we know legally defined in it.
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"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Rusty6149
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Rusty6149 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:27 pm

I cycled through the area and over the bridge yesterday. My first thought was that the cycle path isn't very defined, around the bell tower and leading up to the bridge. I followed the original path across 2 sets of lights, and the turned left, towards the inlet.

As I turned right into he approach to the bridge I came across another cyclist, quite suddenly.. due to a blind corner caused by boards around the development site. We were both going slowly so no dramas.

As I made my way onto the bridge, and official yelled at me to slow down.. for the record I was doing around 20km/h, with only light pedestrian traffic on the bridge. I continued to pedal, where upon the "official" yelled "Slow Down DxxxHead". So Welcome to Elizabeth Quay ;) .. the nanny state has got your back.

On the other side of the bridge the path met up with the marked path from William Street. I don't understand why they didn't put a marked PSP around the outside of the quay, and keep the bridge Pedestrian only... its not like its the Golden Gate Bridge or anything.

-- Rusty

softy
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:41 pm

Thoglette wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:There are probably more restrictions on you and I that is laid down in regulation than in the enabling Acts.
#IANAL
That's the idea. The law creates a regulator, whose role is to make regulations which have the weight of law.

In some fields there are also "codes of practice" which set out example compliant behaviour. Not specifically law but a line in the sand from a perspective of negligance claims and what a "reasonable person" might expect.

Where it gets confusing in this case is that the key set of regulations is called the "Road Traffic Code". But this is very much regulation and has all the "rules" we know legally defined in it.
spot on! But really the point i was making, an idea or opinion being expressed towards a sub group of the cycling group as a whole, to them, should behave as its namesake. Which is a view point only, with no factual basis

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hiflange
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby hiflange » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:17 am

Rusty6149 wrote:the "official" yelled "Slow Down DxxxHead". So Welcome to Elizabeth Quay ;)
Sweet. It looks as if it's fate is already sealed as a triumph of form over function. Your taxes at work :-)

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Thoglette
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Thoglette » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:47 am

softy wrote:spot on! But really the point i was making, an idea or opinion being expressed towards a sub group of the cycling group as a whole, to them, should behave as its namesake. Which is a view point only, with no factual basis
On that I rather subscribe to the main divisions proposed by the City of Stirling in their rather nicely written plan. They can be paraphrased as the vunerable (small children; learners and the infirm); those without a shower (utility cyclists and certain slower recreational riders) and those planning to shower afterwards (high speed commuters and "serious" recreational riders).

A.k.a 10-15kph; 15-20kph and 30kph (on tarmac - a little lower than the CoS speeds).

There's also a bunch of specialised sports niches (track, BMX, skate-park, downhill, cyclocross, polo) which use (or should use) dedicated facilities.
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
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wellington_street
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby wellington_street » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:56 am

SimoneF, you make some good points, good to have a fresh viewpoint on here.

With regard to Kewdale Road - 'All Bicycles' signs are not regulatory devices and cyclists are not required to pay them any attention. So feel free to keep riding on the road through the interchange. Unfortunately the "No Bicycles" sign is a regulatory device and that will force you onto the path wherever that applies. Have the paths been provided with the shared path signage or marking? If not, you cannot legally ride on them. Main Roads has a bad habit (brought on by partial incompetence and partial DGAF) of not providing the required regulatory signs and markings on paths constructed to be used by bicycles.

Overall the Gateway WA is a net win for cyclists with a big chunk of PSP being provided. What's clear from SimoneF's posts is that more attention needs to be paid to the finer details, not just the spine corridor.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby wellington_street » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:01 pm

Rusty6149 wrote:As I made my way onto the bridge, and official yelled at me to slow down.. for the record I was doing around 20km/h, with only light pedestrian traffic on the bridge. I continued to pedal, where upon the "official" yelled "Slow Down DxxxHead". So Welcome to Elizabeth Quay ;) .. the nanny state has got your back.
How's that for customer relations?
Rusty6149 wrote:On the other side of the bridge the path met up with the marked path from William Street. I don't understand why they didn't put a marked PSP around the outside of the quay, and keep the bridge Pedestrian only... its not like its the Golden Gate Bridge or anything.

-- Rusty
It is a disappointing that a route for faster riders was not provided via Geoffrey Bolton Avenue. It is sort of there but the eastbound connection from GBA into Barrack Street then Riverside Drive is missing. GBA is supposed to be a 'shared zone' so quite comfortable road riding for most cyclists.

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:03 pm

wellington_street wrote:SimoneF, you make some good points, good to have a fresh viewpoint on here.

With regard to Kewdale Road - 'All Bicycles' signs are not regulatory devices and cyclists are not required to pay them any attention. So feel free to keep riding on the road through the interchange. Unfortunately the "No Bicycles" sign is a regulatory device and that will force you onto the path wherever that applies. Have the paths been provided with the shared path signage or marking? If not, you cannot legally ride on them. Main Roads has a bad habit (brought on by partial incompetence and partial DGAF) of not providing the required regulatory signs and markings on paths constructed to be used by bicycles.

Overall the Gateway WA is a net win for cyclists with a big chunk of PSP being provided. What's clear from SimoneF's posts is that more attention needs to be paid to the finer details, not just the spine corridor.
The signage you are referrign to is presumable that specified under the Road Traffic Code. In which case even if it meets the required form laid down in the\at Code, I doubt that it has any legal force as per my earlier suggestion that the Quay does not come under the bailiwick of the Code anyway. Ride without helmets, whatever.

Of course, we may come unstuck if there is a catch-all regulation that the local council may have on obeying direction from certain people authorised to give those directions.
Unchain yourself-Ride a unicycle

wellington_street
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby wellington_street » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:18 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
wellington_street wrote:SimoneF, you make some good points, good to have a fresh viewpoint on here.

With regard to Kewdale Road - 'All Bicycles' signs are not regulatory devices and cyclists are not required to pay them any attention. So feel free to keep riding on the road through the interchange. Unfortunately the "No Bicycles" sign is a regulatory device and that will force you onto the path wherever that applies. Have the paths been provided with the shared path signage or marking? If not, you cannot legally ride on them. Main Roads has a bad habit (brought on by partial incompetence and partial DGAF) of not providing the required regulatory signs and markings on paths constructed to be used by bicycles.

Overall the Gateway WA is a net win for cyclists with a big chunk of PSP being provided. What's clear from SimoneF's posts is that more attention needs to be paid to the finer details, not just the spine corridor.
The signage you are referrign to is presumable that specified under the Road Traffic Code. In which case even if it meets the required form laid down in the\at Code, I doubt that it has any legal force as per my earlier suggestion that the Quay does not come under the bailiwick of the Code anyway. Ride without helmets, whatever.

Of course, we may come unstuck if there is a catch-all regulation that the local council may have on obeying direction from certain people authorised to give those directions.
I was referring to Kewdale Road in my post :)

tomness
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby tomness » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:24 pm

From the comments above it sounds like there must be security constantly yelling at cyclists and boaters. Fantastic public relations effort.

I went over the bridge last week and agree with all the comments about it's lack of suitability to cyclists. It is definitely a downgrade from what cyclists had before. When I went it was heaving with pedestrians, so it seems to be a great success at luring people down to the river. It's role of establishing the link between the city and the river should be applauded. I think for me to really appreciate it I will need to go back as a pedestrian, maybe bring the family down to check it out. The kids would love it.

In the meantime I will stick to my revised commute route along the South Perth bike path. Sure it is a km or two longer than Riverside Drive but it is a more pleasant commuting experience than dealing with EQ and the Causeway.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby cj7hawk » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:14 am

tomness wrote:From the comments above it sounds like there must be security constantly yelling at cyclists and boaters. Fantastic public relations effort.

I went over the bridge last week and agree with all the comments about it's lack of suitability to cyclists. It is definitely a downgrade from what cyclists had before. When I went it was heaving with pedestrians, so it seems to be a great success at luring people down to the river. It's role of establishing the link between the city and the river should be applauded. I think for me to really appreciate it I will need to go back as a pedestrian, maybe bring the family down to check it out. The kids would love it.

In the meantime I will stick to my revised commute route along the South Perth bike path. Sure it is a km or two longer than Riverside Drive but it is a more pleasant commuting experience than dealing with EQ and the Causeway.
Well, I suppose we deserve to get something for our AA2 credit rating downgrade now we have the worst credit rating in Australia. Much of which is directly attributable to this project and is entirely attributable to the current government. :(

Time to start sucking up to the shadow-cycling-minister...

David

tomness
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby tomness » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:16 pm

The gateway and stadium projects would be equal culprits for our economic downgrade. I agree it is not an ideal situation to be in considering our long boom run. I certainly have no love for Col and his band of merry men.

nachoman
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby nachoman » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:09 pm

I see the Mayor has chimed in on twitter:

Image

I rode across at walking pace again this afternoon, as I have a dozen times already. This was the first time I was pulled up by security and asked not to ride across. They advised it was at the direction of the venue operator (MRA) that they stop bicycles when there are lots of children on the bridge.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby jamesh » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:31 pm

I was cycling through on Friday night, and told to dismount by a security guard. There were a lot of pedestrians so I was cycling slowly (as the conditions required), but told to get off on the when I reached the east side of the bridge. There were no signs indicating a closure.

I asked if it the bridge was part of the cycle path, and they said it was. Since cycling was not allowed, I asked if there was an alternative suggested route and was told that there was none. I complied with the directions, but am not particularly happy about the situation. I worry that we'll see the same type of closures during future events at that location.

I've also tried cycling around the other side of the inlet at other times of the day, and that wasn't much better. It isn't clear which way to go, and the cobble "road" section is not at all pleasant to cycle on compared to the pedestrian areas. The bridge definitely seems like the route they want cyclists to take, all things considered.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby dmwill » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:24 pm

Was told to ride at walking pace this morning. Looked at Garmin, I was already doing 8km/h.

Try riding at walking pace, clipped in with walkers going in every direction.

A simple dividing line and keep left signs on the bridge might work to some extent.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby cj7hawk » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:05 pm

dmwill wrote:Was told to ride at walking pace this morning. Looked at Garmin, I was already doing 8km/h.

Try riding at walking pace, clipped in with walkers going in every direction.

A simple dividing line and keep left signs on the bridge might work to some extent.
Am I missing something here?

It's a shared path isn't is? And there's an established right for cyclists to use it right?

Cyclists need to be mindful of the conditions, and should ride accordingly, and may be in trouble if they do not... However...

Being stopped by security personnel is assault. Security personnel have no lawful basis to stop a cyclist and demand certain actions of them.

Or is the path on private property, or not a shared path?

Regards
David

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