City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

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Aushiker
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby Aushiker » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:10 pm

elStado wrote:
jet-ski wrote:I got a response from Lisa Scaffidi!

Thanks for your email. The bike lanes will be phased in when they can link up to other bikeways in the city. The changes are all sequenced over time and we agree with you a more bike friendly city is ultimately the aim. We also need to give due cognisance to traders and property owners needs too. As with many things it is a balancing act but over time you will see the changes you seek.

Kind regards, Lisa


Lisa Scaffidi
Lord Mayor
City of Perth


More interesting than the other responses. Shows the priorities pretty clearly.
Sounds better.. now why didn't they just say that in the first place?
Hi

Not sure how that is better ... they where in concept plan yet not installed; her answer is 1000% vague on details, e.g., no dates. It says the same as the consultant's just with more spin. They are at best on the never never plan ... whoops there is no plan.

Andrew

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:22 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Not sure how that is better ... they where in concept plan yet not installed; her answer is 1000% vague on details, e.g., no dates. It says the same as the consultant's just with more spin. They are at best on the never never plan ... whoops there is no plan.

Andrew
That's very true, however we ARE talking about CoP here.. kings of vague and spin. This is about as good as it will get.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby pickle » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:55 pm

jet-ski wrote: If they want it to be a 'conservation' area, best they put trams back in and get rid of the cars.
+1 for trams
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:06 pm

pickle wrote:
jet-ski wrote: If they want it to be a 'conservation' area, best they put trams back in and get rid of the cars.
+1 for trams
+1 for light rail. They really should be implementing a circle route style low speed light rail system that goes around Perth CBD and connects WEST/EAST Perth.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby pickle » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:00 pm

Does light rail = trams? I just assumed they were the same thing, or is there a precise definition of each?
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:27 am

pickle wrote:Does light rail = trams? I just assumed they were the same thing, or is there a precise definition of each?
Almost. They are pretty much the same thing.

A tram, IMO, is more like the old style which are slower and 'boxyer'. Light rail look and act more like modern trains, except they are on the street and go slower.

Tram:
Image

Light rail:
Image

FYI the Greens have been advocating an extensive light rail network around Perth. The idea has been bouncing around for ages, but it's nice to see a [now] significant political party put some sway behind the movement.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby Thoglette » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:58 pm

elStado wrote:
pickle wrote:Does light rail = trams? I just assumed they were the same thing, or is there a precise definition of each?
Almost. They are pretty much the same thing.

A tram, IMO, is more like the old style which are slower and 'boxyer'. Light rail look and act more like modern trains, except they are on the street and go slower.
<snip>
Agreed - to a point.

"tram" is/was defined by the use of existing roadways and passenger access from the roadway (vs. a raised platform).

"light" is/was driven by axle loads and speeds - which literally determine the degree and cost of the build.


I'd call both the images above "trams" - light rail ofetn looks more like the image below - Perth's highspeed commuter rail would be considered "light" by some (due to limited bridge weights). (Heavy rail by definition allows for fully loaded freight trains)

But there's enough word association between "tram" and "old rattler" that "urban light rail" is considered much sexier.

Image

The German terms are Straßenbahn (street rail - trams) and Stadtbahn (city rail) and the wikipedia article tracks the history of confusion nicely.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby jet-ski » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:23 pm

I'm with Thoglette, both those look like 'trams' to me.... that wiki page is cool... though I think it would be cool to have a 'heritage' CBD tram loop with old boxy trams ;) that would bring back some history, because Perth DID have them once upon a time, and nothing in the CBD is going to be high speed... only problem with the old ones is accessibility for prams/wheelchairs etc.

I still shake my head when I see those weird buses that are converted to look like trams for tourists to ride on. One of them is garaged in bassendean somewhere I think cos I always see it speeding down railway pde.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:11 pm

Thoglette wrote:
I'd call both the images above "trams" - light rail ofetn looks more like the image below - Perth's highspeed commuter rail would be considered "light" by some (due to limited bridge weights). (Heavy rail by definition allows for fully loaded freight trains)
You are totally right. I got a little mixed up. Look at the time I posted that. Had a few beers too.

Light rail is essentially what it is called, smaller/lighter trains.
But there's enough word association between "tram" and "old rattler" that "urban light rail" is considered much sexier.
8)
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:13 pm

jet-ski wrote:I think it would be cool to have a 'heritage' CBD tram loop with old boxy trams ;) that would bring back some history, because Perth DID have them once upon a time, and nothing in the CBD is going to be high speed... only problem with the old ones is accessibility for prams/wheelchairs etc.
That would be a fantastic idea. A inner CBD tram circle route like they have in Melbourne. In regards to accessibility, I don't think it would be too much of a problem to incorporate it into the design. Plenty of smart kids out there.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby Thoglette » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:23 am

jet-ski wrote:because Perth DID have them once upon a time, and nothing in the CBD is going to be high speed....
Used to run out to the Wembley Hotel, and almost all the way to Uni, if my memory serves me. Certainly ran up Rockby road to somewhere.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby uMP2k » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:38 am

Thoglette wrote:
jet-ski wrote:because Perth DID have them once upon a time, and nothing in the CBD is going to be high speed....
Used to run out to the Wembley Hotel, and almost all the way to Uni, if my memory serves me. Certainly ran up Rockby road to somewhere.
I believe that the ones that ran out the UWA and also down Canning Highway were something different again: Trolly buses.

Check out http://www.pets.org.au/pets10pt.html and http://www.sfu.ca/person/dearmond/argu/Perth.photos.htm

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby rolandp » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:45 pm

There is a whole forum topic Perth Light Rail, if you want to see what is currently being suggested.

In regards to Barrack St, this is now two way, completed yesterday (Saturday 12 Sept 2010), and was interested to see what it looks like:
Image
So basically two lanes each way, with footpath on each side. Whilst there I got the tape measure out, and can confirm that the widths of the footpaths are roughly 2.6m.
NearMap has a messuring tool which shows that the distance across is roughly 20m:
Image
Which tallies up roughly to the original proposal from CoP:
Image
Footpath West 2.6m - there
Three lanes 3.2m + 3.1m + 3.2m = 9.5m - there but must be a lot larger
Parking Lane East 2.7m - not there this is a normal road lane as there is no parking on the east side
Cycle Lane 2.4m - not there
Footpath East 2.6m - there
Total width 2.6m + 9.5m + 2.7m + 2.4m + 2.6m = 19.5m (matches up roughlty with what NearMap shows).

So what has now been provided is 4 lanes taking up 19.5 - 2.6 - 2.6 = 14.3m. Each lane therefore must be roughly 3.5m in width.

So basically, with the exception of the footpaths which are roughly the same width as the proposal, every other facility in the original proposal the City of Perth has got wrong.

Clearly parking isn't required in this area, as the City of Perth has decided not to have it now, so put back the original three lanes of traffic at the proposed width of 3.2m each, and that leaves 4.7m for a cycle way. That means we can have a two way cycle lane both on the east and west side of Barrack St.

The twisting of words won't work here, the proposal does not match with what has been provided. Shame on you City of Perth. There is room for a cycle path, put the cycle path in as originally proposed.

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby rolandp » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:27 pm

Got a response from City of Perth (aka Ray Dunne who works for an external PR organisation to respond to questions on the behalf of CoP) to my questions. The questions were:
When the City decided not to proceed with installing the Barrack Street cycle lanes as part of the original scheduled work?
How this decision was conveyed to the cycling communities and the general public?
Where exactly will the Barrack Street cycle lanes go, given that there is now no room left with existing footpaths and road traffic lanes?
Approximate dates when the Barrack Street cycle lanes will be installed?

The response was:
The two-way bicycle lane will replace the existing kerbside southern traffic lanes and is set to be completed in 2013. The schedule was changed in light of the commencement of major roadworks on St Georges Terrace on 20 September 2010 which will last approximately 11 months.
Regards,
Ray Dunne

So basically a three year delay on an initial 12 month project. Unbelievable. And most of my questions went unanswered.

I've also been given some consideration on the cycle lanes being proposed, and in light of the discussions occuring on Sydney Bike Lanes and I'm now thinking I don't like what is being proposed. Why can't we just have cycle lanes on both sides of Barrack St? If you have a look at:
Image, how do these work given that there will be intersections with roads including Riverside Dr, St Georges Tce etc.

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:53 pm

rolandp wrote: So basically a three year delay on an initial 12 month project. Unbelievable. And most of my questions went unanswered.
That sucks, I can't belive it is going to take so much longer to complete. Maybe this gives us an opportunity to get them to redesign the lanes and also make an example of them?

I have done a lot of travelling around Europe (little on bike though unfortunately) and I honestly can't remember seeing a two-way cycle path on the street. Off the top of my head places in Holland and Germany always had a marked one-way cycle lane about 1.2m wide along each direction of traffic, and only had two-way lanes on car-free dedicated cycleways or PSPs.

ED: Now that I think about it there were some two-way cycle lanes in Amsterdam and Berlin.. I wonder how they make them work? Or what they think of them? I wonder if CoP has done external case studies, or some engineer somewhere just thought it was a good idea?

I think we can all agree that this would be the best eventual outcome (however recent low oil prices aren't helping):

Image

However he did answer all you questions except for how the decision was conveyed, which I presume wasn't answered because a. he couldn't say or b. didn't know.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby rolandp » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:18 am

I felt he answered three of the questions, and two of these he got wrong.
The questions were:
When the City decided not to proceed with installing the Barrack Street cycle lanes as part of the original scheduled work?
Answer - The schedule was changed in light of the commencement of major roadworks on St Georges Terrace on 20 September 2010 which will last approximately 11 months.
CoP has been planing St George's work since before June 2009 (this was when public consiltation occured). See here, so it is VERY bad planning to work out the week before this work is to start to suddenly make the call not to put the bike lanes on Barrack St.

How this decision was conveyed to the cycling communities and the general public?
Not answered

Where exactly will the Barrack Street cycle lanes go, given that there is now no room left with existing footpaths and road traffic lanes?
Answer: The two-way bicycle lane will replace the existing kerbside southern traffic lanes and is set to be completed in 2013.
Wrong, Barrack St runs North to South, so CoP will be replacing traffic lanes either on the east or west. If his answer is correct, then this is suggesting that only the southern end of Barrack St is to have cycling lanes, and not the whole length of Barrack St, which was the ultimate aim to join up PSP's on Riverside Drive, and near the railway.

Approximate dates when the Barrack Street cycle lanes will be installed?
Answer: 2013
Just can't believe that we will not be getting these lanes for an other three years.

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby Kalgrm » Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:20 am

rolandp wrote: Image
Guess I'll just continue to ride on the road, if that's what they are offering. At least I'll have the same rights as I do now.
Think outside the double triangle.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:03 am

rolandp wrote:I felt he answered three of the questions, and two of these he got wrong.
Totally.
Just can't believe that we will not be getting these lanes for an other three years.
Me neither.. who knows if it would even happen. Maybe if they got a kick in the backside we might get some proper answers and get it fast tracked?

I really think it's about time cyclists took to the streets en-mass to show that we are not such a minority and we won't be pushed aside.

In the mean-time constantly harassing them via email, main and petitions will keep them aware that we aren't happy.
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby hiflange » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:02 am

Aushiker wrote:Good idea. Where did you find the email address or better still can you share it?
All their details are here. I have it as a v card file, can't see any way of attaching it though. PM me if you'd like it and I'll email it

http://perth.wa.gov.au/web/Council/Elected-Members/

I'm sending snail mail.
I have no evidence for this, but I feel it formalises the exchange a little more and is harder to skim read or ignore.

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby elStado » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:39 am

RobertFrith wrote: I'm sending snail mail.
I have no evidence for this, but I feel it formalises the exchange a little more and is harder to skim read or ignore.
It is, due to the large amounts of emails they receive daily emails are often missed or not responded to properly.

I am pretty sure most organisations have different policies for emails and hard copy mail.

Make sure you write it in a 100% professional manner and state when you expect a reply by, and follow it up with a call if you don't get a reply within your set time frame (e.g. 7 working days).
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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby rolandp » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:15 am

Back in Feb-2014, we were requested to provide feedback to a temporary cycle lanes on Barrack St.

Received an e-mail on Thursday indicating:
Dear Sir/Madam

Earlier this year you provided comment on the City's proposal to re-purpose the redundant bus lane in Barrack Street as a temporary cycle facility.

This email is to inform you that at the Council Meeting held on Tuesday evening (22 April 2014) Council voted not to proceed with the installation of the temporary cycle lanes.

We thank you for your interest in this project and for taking the time to provide input..

The City proposes to introduce permanent on-road cycle lanes in Barrack Street in 2015 at the same time that the street is converted to two-way traffic. For more information, please visit the City's website:
http://www.cityofperth.wa.gov.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


This will be 6 years in the making, and with now two-strikes for failing to implement these cycle lanes, the third attempt had better be successful.

This will also be 12 months late based on the CoP Bike Plan, which the City approved in 2012
Between Riverside Drive and Wellington St – create on-road cycle lanes in north and south bound direction, treatment at various intersections for bicycle priority - 2012/13 - cost $120,000

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby Aushiker » Thu May 08, 2014 10:36 am

CycleSnail in his role as Executive Officer at the Bicycle Transport Allinance has shared the BTA's views on the cycle lanes in an article in the Guardian Express. Grass-roots lobbying for cyclists at work.

Image

PERTH council’s decision to delay the installation of temporary bike lanes along Barrack Street because of construction is a “cop out” says Bicycle Transport Alliance executive officer Heinrich Benz.

Last month, the council unanimously voted not to proceed with the bike lanes for about 12 months because of the Old Treasury Building development at the intersection of Barrack and Hay streets.

“It’s such a cop out, the Treasury building is on the other side of the street, not where the bike lane is going to be,” Mr Benz said.


Balance in the Guardian Express article.

If you have views on the topic please share them with the Guardian by a comment to the article and/or letter to the paper ... we need to speak out if we want to see changes in our favour.

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby Sinner » Thu May 08, 2014 11:47 am

Looks like there was discord between the pollies and the officers:
The Officer’s original recommendation as presented to the Works and Urban Development Committee meeting held on 8 April 2014, is set out below:
That Council:
1. notes that, as part of transport changes associated with Elizabeth Quay, cycle lanes are to be installed in Barrack Street between Riverside Drive and St Georges Terrace by mid-2014;
2. approves the temporary conversion of the redundant bus lane in Barrack Street (St Georges Terrace to Wellington Street) into bi-directional cycle lanes to provide connectivity between the river and the Principal Shared Path on Roe Street;
3. notes that implementation of the temporary cycle lanes is scheduled for April 2014, subject to:
3.1 any minor technical changes to the design as recommended in the road safety audit;
3.2 obtaining temporary traffic management approval;
3.3 further communication to Barrack Street stakeholders;
4. notes that the scope, budget and timing of the long-term plans for converting Barrack Street back to two-way (including on-road cycle lanes) will be subject of a future report to Council, and cannot be implemented for at least 12 months.

At the Works and Urban Development Committee meeting held on 8 April 2014, the Committee resolved to adopt an alternate Officer Recommendation tabled by the Chief Executive Officer as follows:
That Council:
1. does not proceed with the installation of temporary cycle lanes in Barrack Street because the commercial construction activity along Barrack Street remains a legitimate traffic management concern for approximately 12 months;
2. notes that the permanent cycle lanes for Barrack Street will be implemented as part of the Two-Way Project, following the removal of commercial site access impediments on Barrack Street;
3. instructs the Officers to investigate and implement other temporary uses of the redundant bus lane, in particular, the use by taxis as an express route out of the city subject to relevant State Government agency approvals.

Reason: The Works and Urban Development Committee expressed concern over the constraints resulting from construction on Barrack Street. Furthermore, the Committee expressed its belief that retaining the existing bus lane including the possible use by taxis is an appropriate alternative.
Taxis 1 Cyclists 0

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby softy » Sun May 18, 2014 1:33 pm

Be fair, cyclist are on the backburner, as they have had focus on more important things like smokers, smoking outside in the mall!

:o

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Re: City of Perth - where is the cycle lanes on Barrack St?

Postby rolandp » Mon May 19, 2014 10:57 pm

Spotted recently, cycle markers at traffic lights at the corner of Barrack St/Hay St.
Image

They are in the umm, bus lane.

Was this forward thinking by someone that the cycle lanes were coming (some time in the future), or have they always been there and we couldn't and still can't ride on them, as it is still legally a bus lane?

Using google maps, streetview, they have been there since 2007. Given that this topic has been going since 2010, it may have been someone forwarding thinking back in 2007 :).

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