North St Mt Lawley

[Red Rider]

North Street in Mt Lawley, City of Stirling, is a road I've used quite a bit. In the main, it is nice and wide to allow for bikes and motor vehicles. The number of vehicles is only light to moderate, never heavy.

However, on the weekend riding along here there is road works occurring. They look to be installing on-road car parking bays. This means there is no room for a bike and car to share the lane. The lane is now so narrow that motor vehicles will have to move into the wrong lane to overtake bike riders. It will also introduce the chance of doorings. For those familiar, it seems to be as bad, if not worse, than the conditions at the dog-leg to the south-west of Braeside Rd.

It is residential, no commercial/retail. I'm not sure why this has been done as to my memory no one has ever parked on the road, and no one parked on the verge either.

[Dirty32]

I normally come up North / Longroyd St on the mornings into the city and sometimes in the afternoon home...

I completely agree with you. Everything was fine, and all of a sudden (seemingly out of nowhere) the on-road parking seems to have ruined the complete layout of the street. What was a nice, wide street with plenty of clearance both ways is now narrow and would appear to be potentially unsafe for all of the reasons you've mentioned. Not to forget, the street is a bus route and the buses are pretty regular during peak times.

I cannot really see the point. I dont really ever recall there being many cars (if any) parked on the road, or even on the verge. What compounds the issue - the blocks that line this street are older (and obviously larger). The front gardens and driveways tend to be long and have plenty of room for parking (somewhat backed up by the fact that there is rarely anyone parking on the road). The only thing I can think of is if the area is being looked at for block subdivision / re-zoning, but then there will always be new driveways installed in any event.

It certainly has me scratching my head - that is for sure! Please let us know if you find any publications as to why the works were carried out. I cannot overly see any of the residents being happy with the changes either (or at least, I wouldnt if it were my street!).

[HappyHumber]

Maybe residents campaigned for it for some reason?

Traffic calming measure for the occasional hoon?

[markylp]

I have already spoken to the City of Stirling about this issue. It seems ridiculous to me as well.

The people at Stirling took a keen interest and assured me that the new road would be "better". The guy went on with a lot of stuff about how we should be "riding primary" and "owning the lane".
Fairly irrelevant to me as I believe that most people don't have the guts or inclination to do this. I've rarely seen it anyway.

I encourage anyone who feels strongly to send a message to the City of Stirling. My impression is that their traffic engineering department is living in an ivory tower.

[markylp]

Comments can be sent to City of Stirling at the following address stirling@stirling.wa.gov.au.

[wellington_street]

The new lanes are very very narrow, a lot of centreline crossing by cars let alone buses.

The idea of riding in primary position doesnt work so well with kerbs that go in and out all the time.

[Dirty32]

Agreed... Still driving and riding this road regularly (although, no longer happily!).
I think the new road design is terrible... It basically couldnt have been designed any worse.

As mentioned, there are way more pinch points than there ever was. Cars are now swerving left and right to get around the newly implemented / artificial 'islands', and crossing the centre line (wonder if these will need to be recentred and repainted, or whether this is just permissible as is?). Cars are now having to wait behind buses that are pulling over (where before, there was plenty of room to pass without any danger to oncoming vehicles) causing more congestion a lot further up and down the road. Toward the city end, it is now very narrow at the right hand curve (facing city) and i've not felt all that safe there on the bicycle (where before it was very wide, and wide enough for cars going both ways without cars having to squeeze or wait for a cyclist).

Having thought about it a little more over the past couple of weeks, the only reason I can think of as to why this was done was to slow traffic down. There have on occasions been speed camera's set up (a little while back now) and I can only assume that the council didnt like what was coming back (although the govt. would have loved it... $$). Around school hours there tends to be a few students around the road waiting for or getting off buses. Formerly, I dont think that people were overly speeding on the road, but it was an easy road to speed on (if that makes sense) with its wide roads and good visibility both ways). Now it is obviously more narrow and the visibility is often more obscured (by buses or other traffic). I can only wonder / hope that it has achieved its aim, if it was designed with this in mind).

I actually wonder whether whoever had any input into the design has ever or will ever have to use the road with any regularity and would be keen to know if it can be viewed as successful, by them. It now seems a more dangerous road than it was previously...!

[Red Rider]

I have been in contact with the City of Stirling and they certainly do welcome feedback from road users. I am sure the more perspective they get from us the more informed their designs and decisions will be. I will continue to do that as the road works are bedded down.

Echoing the comments about the inconsistency of the lane width, I'm unsure as to whether this will actually make the road safer due to it's unpredictability, and thus slow motorists down more. But I'm increasingly certain the average Joe/Jill will not want to ride along here. I know it's giving me second thoughts going up the hill. They usually install median strips to slow cars down, the now-built design allows cars the ability to safely overtake bikes, and to have parking bays for residents. It essentially makes a bad situation for people on bikes slightly more tolerable.

I think a far better outcome would be to have protected bike lanes that everyone would be happy throw a leg over the saddle and use. Riders need to feel safe to use the road, and the new treatment certainly doesn't meet this. They have been relegated behind the need for a few parking bays.

[citywomble]

Hi Red Rider,

A lesson learnt so far is that perception is just as, if not more, important than reality.

What makes this look so bad, during construction, is that the original centreline is still in place which conflicts with the new kerb alignments. In future consideration to removing the centrelines before work commences may be better.

I do not believe that the needs of cyclists have been relegated behind the need for a few parking bays. Au contraire, the needs of cyclists has been placed higher and resulted in the previously unrestricted available on road parking being greatly reduced to just the few parking bays you refer to.

The City of Stirling would greatly appreciate comments once the works have been completed and cyclists (and motorists) have become familiar with the final results.

[Dirty32]

They usually install median strips to slow cars down, the now-built design allows cars the ability to safely overtake bikes, and to have parking bays for residents. It essentially makes a bad situation for people on bikes slightly more tolerable.

I think a far better outcome would be to have protected bike lanes that everyone would be happy throw a leg over the saddle and use. Riders need to feel safe to use the road, and the new treatment certainly doesn't meet this. They have been relegated behind the need for a few parking bays.

I somewhat personally disagree with the first comment above... From my perspective, I didnt think it was a particularly bad road for cyclists in the first place. There seemed to be very few cars parked on the verge (certainly not enough to warrant the installation of proper on street carbays), the road was always seemed wide enough that a cyclist would be able to avoid being close enough to being 'doored' by a parked car, even with traffic flowing in both directions.

I would say that the 'new' situation makes it less tolerable than it originally was. If a cyclist now happens to be at any of the pinch points when a car is due to pass, either the cyclist or car will have to yield and wait until it is safe to pass. Especially if there is traffic coming in both directions. I guess it is fine if traffic is passing you while you are cycling between these artificial pinch points, but I think it could get pretty dangerous on the approach to one (especially when you add in buses in both directions)... It doesnt seem to allow any flow for any parties.

On the buses... I am not sure what the etiquette or expectation is, but since the road works have been commenced (and some finished), I would have assumed that buses would have atleast attempted to pull completely in to the isolated car parking areas where possible, so as to avoid the backing up or traffic behind them while they are stopped. From what I have seen, bus drivers dont seem to be too interested and even when there seems to be plenty of space available to pull in, seem quite happy to stop on the road and block traffic for a couple of minutes with no qualms.

I also think that we must be slightly dilusional that we could have expected a protected bike lane on that street. Although it was probably wide enough for it and is slowly becoming more busy, I think any road infrastructure upgrades that far out of the city (ok, it is more plausible around Northbridge or city sorrounding areas) are unlikely to solely have cyclists in mind.

I do not believe that the needs of cyclists have been relegated behind the need for a few parking bays. Au contraire, the needs of cyclists has been placed higher and resulted in the previously unrestricted available on road parking being greatly reduced to just the few parking bays you refer to.

The City of Stirling would greatly appreciate comments once the works have been completed and cyclists (and motorists) have become familiar with the final results.

Is it safe to say that you hold some kind of position with the council citywomble?
Is it public knowledge, or are you able to divulge on why these works were undertaken, or what prompted them?

In theory, I probably agree with your comment, but in practice it doesnt seem to have worked. For the reasons mentioned above, by trying to reduce or contain the on street parking, I believe that the works have in fact impacted cyclists and road users in a way that was not present previously. It seems to have taken away all of the space that all road users have previously... I can't recall the street ever being so busy or needing 'a few parking bays' when there was so little on street parking and so much space available. No one seemed to be inconvenienced by it, and it never appeared to effect or slow the flow of traffic. Was there a need to 'minimise' or reduce the parking bays to 'just a few'?

Is there an estimated completion date on the works at all?
Id be happy to let the council know of my thoughts once the works have been completed.

[markylp]

My thoughts are that if excessive speed was an issue then it could have been addressed by:

- putting some 50 kph signs in the street (the streets at either end are a 6o kph limit, so inattentive drivers may not realise that North St is 50kph). I rarely recall seeing anyone there travelling at "way over the limit" speeds (>70kph).
- inserting another roundabout or two.

Most residents I've canvassed have had the "if it ain't broke...." attitude.

Re the buses at bus stops holding up traffic issue - I assumed that not having bus bays was a deliberate attempt to further slow the traffic. It's working a treat at my bus stop in the morning peak.

[Red Rider]

They usually install median strips to slow cars down, the now-built design allows cars the ability to safely overtake bikes, and to have parking bays for residents. It essentially makes a bad situation for people on bikes slightly more tolerable.

I somewhat personally disagree with the first comment above... From my perspective, I didnt think it was a particularly bad road for cyclists in the first place. There seemed to be very few cars parked on the verge (certainly not enough to warrant the installation of proper on street carbays), the road was always seemed wide enough that a cyclist would be able to avoid being close enough to being 'doored' by a parked car, even with traffic flowing in both directions.

Yes I agree, what I meant by my comment was that the as-built design is better than having a median strip style design. Which isn't saying a lot.
It is clear that the objective is to slow motor vehicle traffic.

[wellington_street]

I dunno, a median strip works pretty well to turn cyclists into slowly moving traffic calming devices. Cars won't get very fast if they can't pass a cyclists riding along at 25km/h.

[Red Rider]

True, but I don't think many people are prepared to ride in that environment, they don't claim the lane. I think them rules say to keep as far left as possible? The buses are doing well at slowing traffic anyways.

[wellington_street]

True, but I don't think many people are prepared to ride in that environment, they don't claim the lane. I think them rules say to keep as far left as possible? The buses are doing well at slowing traffic anyways.

Yeah I was being very much facetious

[markylp]

I do not believe that the needs of cyclists have been relegated behind the need for a few parking bays. Au contraire, the needs of cyclists has been placed higher and resulted in the previously unrestricted available on road parking being greatly reduced to just the few parking bays you refer to.

I struggle with the importance placed on providing parking bays, as parking has never been a problem on North St. The street is residential and all the properties have off-road facilities for vehicle parking.

[Dirty32]

My thoughts are that if excessive speed was an issue then it could have been addressed by:

- putting some 50 kph signs in the street (the streets at either end are a 6o kph limit, so inattentive drivers may not realise that North St is 50kph). I rarely recall seeing anyone there travelling at "way over the limit" speeds (>70kph).
- inserting another roundabout or two.

Most residents I've canvassed have had the "if it ain't broke...." attitude.

Re the buses at bus stops holding up traffic issue - I assumed that not having bus bays was a deliberate attempt to further slow the traffic. It's working a treat at my bus stop in the morning peak.

Correct! Have you spoken with any of your neighbours about what they think of it currently?

I mentioned it earlier, but although it seemed an easy street to speed on (formerly wide and lots of visibility), I have rarely experienced anyone really speeding on the street (by a substantial amount).
If it was purely aimed at slowing traffic, In my opinion there was probably easier and less convoluted ways to do it...

What we seem to have now may reduce the speed of traffic, but it seems to have made the street generally more dangerous and less flowing for all traffic, including cyclists. No proof of how it will work long term as yet, obviously.

Yes I agree, what I meant by my comment was that the as-built design is better than having a median strip style design. Which isn't saying a lot.
It is clear that the objective is to slow motor vehicle traffic.

Ah, sorry... I had misread what you meant. I now see what you had intended, and I agree with you. At least cars have the option of passing... A median strip the whole way up probably wouldnt do anyone any favours either.

I struggle with the importance placed on providing parking bays, as parking has never been a problem on North St. The street is residential and all the properties have off-road facilities for vehicle parking.

Basically, what I was always trying to say (in a lot less words)! Thank you.

[Becker_11]

Don't disagree with the points above but wanted to mention an alternative.

I've always used Clifton cresent which is 1 street further south of North to get between Central ave and Walcott st regardless of whether I'm riding or driving. For starters there's no bus service along that street and secondly it eliminates the lights at Longroyd and Walcott. I've never had a problem making a right turn out of Clifton onto Walcott to then head down William.

Each to their own but now North street has been stuffed I mean improved I am even more inclined to never use it than I was before.

[Dirty32]

Thanks for the tip, Becker. I'll give it a go and report back...
So simple, but has me scratching my head wondering why I hadnt thought of that!

[markylp]

Sssshhh.....It was meant to be a secret...the CoS may hear you and screw up Clifton as well now.

[citywomble]

CoS has always considered Clifton Crescent as a viable back street cycle route.

North Street is currently compromised because it is under construction and the original centreline is still in place and creating apparent pinch points. This should be resolved once the works are completed and the new centrelines and edge lines in place. Once completed it should be very similar in width to Clifton but with parking embayed out of the path of cyclists and the apparent pinch points will be resolved with a consistent road width.

This thread may provide a useful opportunity for cyclists to provide comment a few weeks after the work is completed and several weeks have elapsed to enable riders to become familiar with new new layout.

[Dirty32]

I said that I would comment on my opinion of the street once the works had been completed and I had spent a bit of time using it.

I will say that the re-centering of the road markings has definitely helped and now that the works have been finished, the road probably isnt as bad as I had maybe initially thought. I still find that there are a couple of pinch points (particularly at the bottom end where the road kind of zig-zags around some islands on the sides) and it would appear that cars are either travelling through these too fast, or are plainly inattentive and being caught out late and having to yield to a oncoming vehicle.

Also stangely and ironically, I have noticed quite a number of cars parking on the roadside verges (outside of what I assume is their properties or people they are visiting), outside of the new kerbside parking areas that have been added as part of these works. Sometimes, the new roadside bays are only 20 or so metres away, but people are plainly choosing not to use them and parking on the verge. As mentioned earlier, I dont really ever recall this happening in the first place, before the works had taken place, but it seems more regular now. I do notice that a few also are using the new roadside bays.

Would I call the works a success? I dont quite know. I dont think it has had any major impact on the road. IMO it hasnt improved it, but it probably hasnt made it any worse either. I guess it depends on your perspective and how you gauge 'improvements'.

Anyone else?