Be grateful

worzel
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Be grateful

Postby worzel » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:33 pm

I am over in the UK at the moment with work - first time over here for several years and it's great to see a huge upswing in cycling like there has been in Perth. There are "Boris Bikes" all over London. But jeez, I wouldn't feel safe cycling here. Very few people wear helmets, there are few lock up rails and I haven't seen any cycle paths. So everyone is riding on very busy, narrow roads with buses and large trucks passing them win cm to spare. But I have to say that UK drivers seem far more considerate / accepting of cyclists than Perth drivers.


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Thoglette
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Re: Be grateful

Postby Thoglette » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:18 pm

worzel wrote: I haven't seen any cycle paths.
They are there - just the devil's own job to find. Mostly dual use "paths" and "foot paths" but there's some cycle specific stuff coming (google barclays cycle superhighway).

Most are not set up for 30kph cycling so it's back on the roads. However like here you can often find routes on lesser streets that have car proof dead ends etc.
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BaldPatch
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Re: Be grateful

Postby BaldPatch » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:27 pm

Most are not set up for 30kph cycling so it's back on the roads.

I find the comment rather disturbing...
Do people really think it is acceptable to ride at 30km/h on a shared path?
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Tandem
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Re: Be grateful

Postby Tandem » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:40 pm

BaldPatch wrote:Most are not set up for 30kph cycling so it's back on the roads.

I find the comment rather disturbing...
Do people really think it is acceptable to ride at 30km/h on a shared path?
Yes I think it is.It all depends on the condition and as long we use common sense I can't see a problem.
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wellington_street
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Re: Be grateful

Postby wellington_street » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:47 pm

Long sections of PSP in Perth are set up for 30km/h (not kilopascals per hectare ;)) - we are quite blessed. Nothing like that in Sydney (except maybe M7) or Melbourne as far as i know

citywomble
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Re: Be grateful

Postby citywomble » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:20 pm

Hi,

BaldPatch and wellington_street, ironically you are both right.

In some circumstances the conditions and common sense may not cause a problem, until pedestrians act unpredictably or step onto or cross the shared path (and they have right of way if they do so). That is why the primary 'design guidance' for cyclist infrastructure Austroads, part 6A, figure 2.1 is very clear that even moderately trafficked shared paths are not an appropriate facility where bicycle speeds exceed 20 km/h.
For that reason I agree with BaldPatch.

But, despite Austroads, large sections of PSP have been set up for speeds of 30 km/h and above and have many cyclists maintaining 40 km/h on the flat.
For that reason I agree with Wellington_street.

The issue here is that speeds greater than 20 on a shared path are dangerous for pedestrians. They are also dangerous for cyclists. Not just physically but also legally. In the event that a pedestrian is KSI then almost certainly the cyclist would be guilty and, even worse, the law in WA has been changed specifically in response to a cycle/ped fatality on a shared path to allow up to 8 years jail.

Should we slow speeds on many shared paths -yes.
Should we slow speeds on PSPs - NO, the intent of the PSP network is to facilitate fast commuting cycling.

What is the answer? Give the pedestrians an alternative and ban them from PSPs by building new Principal Bike Paths and converting existing PSPs (this need was actually foreseen in the PBN Plan drafted in the 1990's and conveniently overlooked). Otherwise how can a fast cyclist "give way to any pedestrian that is on or crossing a shared path" especially when they can enter or cross from out of sight.

If cyclists don't want to potentially held liable for serious accidents with pedestrians then start advocating for fast bike paths because, currently, they ain't here in WA. They are footpaths called PSPs in red asphalt.

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flashpixx
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Re: Be grateful

Postby flashpixx » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:44 pm

[quote="citywomble" ]
If cyclists don't want to potentially held liable for serious accidents with pedestrians then start advocating for fast bike paths because, currently, they ain't here in WA. They are footpaths called PSPs in red asphalt.[/quote]

The only path I have ridden that is anywhere near satisfactory for 30+ kmh is the bicycle only path on Burswood - Sth Perth foreshore. For an ex motorcycle rider it has the added benefit on curves :mrgreen: I've not ridden any of the Kwinana freeway path South of Canning Bridge .... yet
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tomness
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Re: Be grateful

Postby tomness » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:54 am

flashpixx wrote:
citywomble wrote: If cyclists don't want to potentially held liable for serious accidents with pedestrians then start advocating for fast bike paths because, currently, they ain't here in WA. They are footpaths called PSPs in red asphalt.
The only path I have ridden that is anywhere near satisfactory for 30+ kmh is the bicycle only path on Burswood - Sth Perth foreshore. For an ex motorcycle rider it has the added benefit on curves :mrgreen: I've not ridden any of the Kwinana freeway path South of Canning Bridge .... yet
[/quote]

And yet pedestrians, mainly joggers, still use this bike only path, despite there being a pedestrian path just next to the bike path. So what is the cyclists liability if they hit a pedestrian on the bike only path?

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exadios
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Re: Be grateful

Postby exadios » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:11 pm

tomness wrote:
flashpixx wrote:
citywomble wrote: If cyclists don't want to potentially held liable for serious accidents with pedestrians then start advocating for fast bike paths because, currently, they ain't here in WA. They are footpaths called PSPs in red asphalt.
The only path I have ridden that is anywhere near satisfactory for 30+ kmh is the bicycle only path on Burswood - Sth Perth foreshore. For an ex motorcycle rider it has the added benefit on curves :mrgreen: I've not ridden any of the Kwinana freeway path South of Canning Bridge .... yet
And yet pedestrians, mainly joggers, still use this bike only path, despite there being a pedestrian path just next to the bike path. So what is the cyclists liability if they hit a pedestrian on the bike only path?[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I don't have an answer to the legal question. But, given that the path runs through a public park, I think that a proper assessment of the risks would mean that 30+Km/h is way too fast for most bikes.

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bychosis
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Re: Be grateful

Postby bychosis » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:18 pm

30km/h on a share path is only too fast if you are actually sharing it. I there is noone else around, and no risk of a surprise pedestrian popping out from a hidden area then why not. Exercise some caution, mix with courtesy and it's easy to travel at 30, but knock it down to under 25km/h if there is other traffic around and knock it down further if the traffic is not predicatble (ie kids or mutts)
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Mulger bill
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Re: Be grateful

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:02 pm

bychosis wrote:30km/h on a share path is only too fast if you are actually sharing it. I there is noone else around, and no risk of a surprise pedestrian popping out from a hidden area then why not. Exercise some caution, mix with courtesy and it's easy to travel at 30, but knock it down to under 25km/h if there is other traffic around and knock it down further if the traffic is not predicatble (ie kids or mutts)
This seems too logical, gotta be a snag somewhere... :?
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bychosis
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Re: Be grateful

Postby bychosis » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:00 am

Mulger bill wrote:
bychosis wrote:30km/h on a share path is only too fast if you are actually sharing it. I there is noone else around, and no risk of a surprise pedestrian popping out from a hidden area then why not. Exercise some caution, mix with courtesy and it's easy to travel at 30, but knock it down to under 25km/h if there is other traffic around and knock it down further if the traffic is not predicatble (ie kids or mutts)
This seems too logical, gotta be a snag somewhere... :?
Yup, the fun police. My commuting share path has a recommended speed of either 10 or 15km/h
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Mububban
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Re: Be grateful

Postby Mububban » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:11 pm

Mornings are a bit busier with people heading towards the city, but my commute home takes in about 8-9km of shared pathways. It's not uncommon for me to see almost nobody during that time (early afternoon). Maybe 2-3 cyclists heading the opposite direction. Maybe 2-3 people walking. So no probs to cruise along at 30, however I do ease up around the intersecting pathways and blinder corners.
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Thoglette
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Re: Be grateful

Postby Thoglette » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:19 pm

bychosis wrote:30km/h on a share path is only too fast if you are actually sharing it. I there is noone else around, and no risk of a surprise pedestrian popping out from a hidden area then why not.
+1. Or 2. I have several 200m+ no-access bits on my PSPs and regularly (I keep weird hours) no pedestrians on it.

Yet at other times, it's a fast walking pace with the bell going.
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bychosis
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Re: Be grateful

Postby bychosis » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:30 pm

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Me thinks 10km/h is a tad too slow, it's not easy staying upright at that speed. (In the fine print under "ride slowly")
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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