Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAWA

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Aushiker
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Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAWA

Postby Aushiker » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:13 am

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A recent study by cycling academic Marilyn Johnson theorises that there are less serious car/bicycle incidents in the ACT compare to Melbourne because people can escape dangerous situations by using a footpath. And in the study, which was based on the analysis of 466 hours of helmet cam footage, no problematic cycling/pedestrian interactions were observed.

The law is being looked at again, and at a meeting of the Cycling and Pedestrian Advisory Group (CPAG) convened by MainRoadsWA it was recommended that the law should be removed.

Perhaps, after over ten years of discussion, people who look for an alternative to avoid dangerous stretches of roads, or simply want to ride slowly, will get lucky.

The current law is not all that clever, and should be scrapped.
suggests BTAWA

Thoughts?

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NewStew
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby NewStew » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:34 am

I agree with the proposition that riding on footpaths should be legal for all, however, there should be a quite low speed limit (max 15 km/h) placed on their use with a hefty fine and driving license demerit point deduction (if applicable) for breaking it. Since we already have presumptive liability for the cyclist in a cyclist/pedestrian collision is should be OK. The use of footpaths shouldn't be encouraged but people should have the opportunity where the road is madness and the cyclist is happy to just cruise and work in well with any pedestrians. After all that is what most people do anyway!

Then all we need to do is get presumptive liability in place for car/cycle interactions and we will be getting somewhere.

GH
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby GH » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:01 pm

Having grown up in Queensland and ridden here for all but a few of my 60 years I can not see any logical reason why everyone everywhere in Australia can not use the footpath on a bicycle. We can here, we do not kill or maim pedestrians and it just works and is safe if people simply respect one another.

State Governments are always saying they will watch what develops out of another State's trial of something, like filtering for motorbikes in NSW and the 1.0 and 1.5 metre rules in Queensland, well guess what, QLD has had bicycles on footpaths for a hundred years, what more practical example that it is safe do you need?

gh

mich rolling
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby mich rolling » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:54 pm

Absolutely agree GH. Riding on the footpath works well in Brisbane (remember the option on Countess Strett? Death on the road or a footpath with no-body on it, even in the squeezy bit under the rail bridge head-ons with pedestrians were sorted with a smile and stopping the bike until legs had passed).

Footpath riding has its own limiters - vehicles coming out of driveways are a real hazard and self preservation limits speed, footpaths are often narrow and poorly maintained further reducing there attractiveness to cyclists travelling at speeds that would endanger pedestrians.

Unfortunately some pedestrians will be upset no matter how carefully footpath riders move just as some drivers will always be unhappy that a cyclist is on the road. A bit of positive vibe from the WA Premier wouldn't go astray.

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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby rolandp » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:11 pm

My concern is that motorists and politicians will go, great solved that one, get them to ride on the footpath. Motorists will point to the footpath and say get off the roads (they already do this). Politicians will say we don't need to spend money on dedicated cycle paths.

This is only one link in the very long chain that needs to be addressed.

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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:00 pm

rolandp wrote:This is only one link in the very long chain that needs to be addressed.
But currently, The Law Is An Ass and needs fixing. It is surreal that, should I wish to ride with The Young One I have to ride on the road while TYO is on the footpath at 10kph.
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Speedster
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby Speedster » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:31 pm

Thoglette wrote:But currently, The Law Is An Ass and needs fixing. It is surreal that, should I wish to ride with The Young One I have to ride on the road while TYO is on the footpath at 10kph.
You're permitted to ride on the footpath if accompanying a rider under 12.

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rolandp
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby rolandp » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:41 am

Speedster wrote:
Thoglette wrote:But currently, The Law Is An Ass and needs fixing. It is surreal that, should I wish to ride with The Young One I have to ride on the road while TYO is on the footpath at 10kph.
You're permitted to ride on the footpath if accompanying a rider under 12.
From the WA Road Traffic Code:
216. Shared paths and separated footpaths
(1) The rider of a bicycle who is 12 years of age or older shall not ride on a footpath, that is not a shared path or a separated footpath. Modified penalty: 1 PU


Please provide the relevant section which indicates you can when you are accompanying a rider under 12.

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Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAWA

Postby yugyug » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:06 am

rolandp wrote:My concern is that motorists and politicians will go, great solved that one, get them to ride on the footpath. Motorists will point to the footpath and say get off the roads (they already do this). Politicians will say we don't need to spend money on dedicated cycle paths.

.
I don't think politicians will say that, well some maybe, the stupid ones, but we can see now if that happens currently in Queensland, NT and ACT. if anything an area with a lot of footpath riding will be a great indication a cycle path is needed there.

Some motorist will continue to think cyclists should to be on the road, nothing new there and the law by itself won't change that. What will change I think is that it will help increase the number of cyclists, on road and footpath, overtime and that will change attitudes.
Last edited by yugyug on Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby Hugor » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:14 pm

I don't think this law needs changing. Unless you are riding like a fool then I can't see a policeman booking you for pootling along the footpath.
I use them occasionally to negotiate dodgy intersections or avoid dangerous roads. I ride at a sensible speed and give peds right of way.
Never had an issue with police or peds.

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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby citywomble » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:42 pm

Riding on footpaths, by anyone not under 12 is currently illegal in WA (regulation 216)

BUT, the very interesting fact is that virtually all footpaths, even when they are not signed, are shared paths, so that regulation does not apply unless the path is specifically signed as a footpath or to prohibit cycling.

The reason for this is in the Definitions at the front of the Road Traffic Code 2000. A shared path is defined as:
A shared path means an area open to the public (except a separated footpath) that is designated for, or has as one of its main uses, use by both the riders of bicycles and pedestrians,
The key part here is that a path does not have to be designed as, or intended to be, a shared path and does not need to be signed as such to meet that definition or to be one. In fact the very regulation that makes it an offence to ride on a footpath actually permits 'one of its main uses by riders of bicycles (albeit under 12 but the age is immaterial to the use). Thus, unless marked otherwise, most if not all footpaths actually meet the definition of, and therefore are, shared paths. Add to this the adult users that ride on most paths and that main use is compounded. If fact, when you watch someone cycling on any footpath in Perth CBD the police will generally move out of their way and not even blink.

So, the law doesn't even need changing as it already allows cycling on 'footpaths'. It just needs a clarification, some definition of what is safe, and publicity.

What is safe, the road code already specifies 10 km/h as the safe speed for footpaths, see motorised gophers and Australia Post motorcycles, so this could be the 'safe' speed for footpaths unless signed as a shared path in which case the normal design presumption shared path speed of 20km/h (Austroads) could apply unless signed otherwise.

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yugyug
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Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAWA

Postby yugyug » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:50 pm

Hugor wrote:I don't think this law needs changing. Unless you are riding like a fool then I can't see a policeman booking you for pootling along the footpath.
I use them occasionally to negotiate dodgy intersections or avoid dangerous roads. I ride at a sensible speed and give peds right of way.
Never had an issue with police or peds.
Lack of enforcement is not an argument for not changing the law though. You and I might be ok with it, but there are a lot of people unwilling to break a law regardless of safety advantages or lack of enforcement. My favorite hypothetical is the parent who is ok with their children riding to a school on the footpath supervised, but, currently, once at school the parent must return via the road. This does nothing but reinforce the perception that cycling is dangerous.

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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby Red Rider » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:02 am

I think the laws as they currently stand are the best moving forward. I share similar concerns to Roland, it's a battle as it is to get some people to recognise cyclists right to use the roadway, where I generally feel safer without the chance of cars pulling out of driveways, stray pets and kids, lumpy concrete and overgrown vegetation. I once had a pedestrian tell me to get off the road on a backstreet. What did he want me to do, run him over??

If citywombles interpretation of the Code is correct, and I don't have any reason to think it isn't, then it already is legal on pretty much every path, and so there is no point in campaigning for a change.

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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby citywomble » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:37 am

Hi Red Rider,

There are two issues here:

Firstly, there is a purpose in campaigning for a change. That is because unless it is officially recognised those very law abiding adults, that would like to cycle but don't because they don't feel safe on many roads, will not contribute to the cyclist numbers of the future. Anything to mobilise those cyclists, with their kids, and teenagers to school as well as the cautious older returnees to cycling, are the target.

Secondly, there are so many thousands of kilometres of urban roads, that to make all suitable for all cyclists would be prohibitively expensive. It will take many tens (or hundreds) of $millions to create cycling facilities suitable for all on primary and secondary route networks so the tertiary environment, between residences and bike routes, will always depend on local streets, and their footpaths, if the most vulnerable cyclists are to be facilitated and able to cycle safely.

So, as the BTA wish - bring it on. It makes sense.

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Red Rider
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby Red Rider » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:00 am

I like the motive. As it is already legal, there is no need to change the law though? So some legal advice and an awareness campaign is more appropriate.

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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby outnabike » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:32 am

It has all been fixed in Victoria. I have it on video and verbal, a police man telling me to ride on the footpath at my front door.
And he also managed to raise the age to 14 despite me telling him the cut off age was 12 for children. When I told him he was wrong and I would get booked , the reply was "Who's going to book you"
My reply was "You are" I swear it is true and am going for legal advice and working on a way to paraphrase the whole episode verbatim with out using their voices.
Mind boggling stuff.
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby Cheesewheel » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:58 am

outnabike wrote:It has all been fixed in Victoria. I have it on video and verbal, a police man telling me to ride on the footpath at my front door.
And he also managed to raise the age to 14 despite me telling him the cut off age was 12 for children. When I told him he was wrong and I would get booked , the reply was "Who's going to book you"
My reply was "You are" I swear it is true and am going for legal advice and working on a way to paraphrase the whole episode verbatim with out using their voices.
Mind boggling stuff.
I think the pending legal crisis of riding on a footpath is if you are involved in an accident and there is the issue of damages (either that of the cyclist or the pedestrian) that has to be resolved.

I recall one incident where a kid came running down a blind driveway about twice as fast as I was riding and slammed into my bike mounted surfboard rack so hard that they bent it. Luckily the father saw it all unfold and was apologetic. If the kid came out a bit worse and the matter was to be resolved by lawyers I am pretty sure I would be living in a tent now.

riding on the footpath usually defaults one to a slow speed since most motorists have pretty much zero observation skills till they get to the gutter kerb where their driveway meets the road
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Re: Riding on footpaths should be legal for everybody - BTAW

Postby Baalzamon » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:48 am

Cheesewheel wrote:
outnabike wrote:It has all been fixed in Victoria. I have it on video and verbal, a police man telling me to ride on the footpath at my front door.
And he also managed to raise the age to 14 despite me telling him the cut off age was 12 for children. When I told him he was wrong and I would get booked , the reply was "Who's going to book you"
My reply was "You are" I swear it is true and am going for legal advice and working on a way to paraphrase the whole episode verbatim with out using their voices.
Mind boggling stuff.
I think the pending legal crisis of riding on a footpath is if you are involved in an accident and there is the issue of damages (either that of the cyclist or the pedestrian) that has to be resolved.

I recall one incident where a kid came running down a blind driveway about twice as fast as I was riding and slammed into my bike mounted surfboard rack so hard that they bent it. Luckily the father saw it all unfold and was apologetic. If the kid came out a bit worse and the matter was to be resolved by lawyers I am pretty sure I would be living in a tent now.

riding on the footpath usually defaults one to a slow speed since most motorists have pretty much zero observation skills till they get to the gutter kerb where their driveway meets the road
Yep motorist can absolutely put their foot down in their driveway and slam to a halt at the roadway. Seen it I started to swerve I was driving next thing I see the bike rider on the path slamming into the side of the car. Perfectly usable road bike lanes. Stopped to help driver was shaken up, cyclist was miffed and seems he was trialling the path vs the lanes and that happened to him on the day he decides to do that.
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