Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

matthecat
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Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby matthecat » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:54 pm

Hi all,
Peeved off this morning as I had to change yet another tube as a result of running over some glass on the PSP (this time under Tonkin Hwy overpass in Bayswater).
The festive season has been particularly bad with heaps of smashed beer bottles littering the path - BTW given the path passes through multiple local government juristictions who can I ask to sweep?
Whilst I'm not sure the morons who think smashing empties all over the place is fun would really care about a 10c deposit on an empty it may have some impact.
Thoughts/comments?

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Tornado
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Tornado » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:25 pm

I think part of the issue is that the drink providers themselves put up the money. We may have issues getting them to do that here in WA. Not sure how SA still manages it.
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HappyHumber
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:44 pm

Um.. when we get a forward and progressive Govmint who has a few less marionette strings being tugged by big business who don't like the idea of the costs involved for them in implementing the scheme.

Wikipedia : Coca-Cola & the Beverage Industry lobbying against Cash for Containers That in turn links to an interesting overview for the issue nationally here: Container deposit legislation in Australia

Don't tell me a fair portion of the negative press & rumour against the wider scheme introduction isn't also propagated by the industry wishing to protect themselves.
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:49 pm

HappyHumber wrote:Um.. when we get a forward and progressive Govmint who has a few less marionette strings being tugged by big business who don't like the idea of the costs involved for them in implementing the scheme.
I don't think the Greens will be elected to the lower house any time soon.
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Thoglette » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:46 am

<pedant>Firstly, we spell enact correctly</pedant> :shock:

Removing the vendors from the system seems to be a primary step - there involvement can and should be limited to getting stung with a higher retail price.

Those interested in being involved are those either already bearing the costs of clean up (eg. local councils) or willing to put in many hours for a little return (eg. using my broadest brush- scouts and hobos).

There is definitely a case for container acceptance near or at retail presence. One of my enduring memories of Germany in the '90s was watching several inebriated and leather clad metal-heads-with-attitude very slowly and carefully carrying their crate of empties back to the bottleshop - a carton of empties took about 20% or 30%of the price of a new one IIRC. With that mob the alternative would have been them throwing said empties against a wall somewhere.
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Aushiker » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:09 am

New South Wales in implementing a drinks container deposit scheme ...
A drinks container deposit scheme is to be introduced in NSW within the next few weeks as part of a plan to clean up the state's beaches and parks.

The details of the cash for containers scheme are still being finalised but it is likely to feature a rebate of 10 cents per item.

The NSW Government has been negotiating with the drinks industry to introduce the system and Environment Minister Rob Stokes said similar initiatives had proved highly successful in reducing waste in public spaces around the world.
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TonyMax
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby TonyMax » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:32 am

I have often wondered whether people in SA save up their cans and bottles like I used to in Sydney when I was a kid with the aluminium cans.

I remember when it got to 45c per kilo there was an advertising campaign spruiking "1c per can". In those days even 20c could buy you a decent sized bag of mixed lollies at the corner shop, and there were significant numbers of cans littering the side of roads. Or local footy matches/other gatherings would see youths scouring the empty venue with garbage bags.

Any SA members care to enlighten us about your experience getting money back for containers?
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Carrots » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:31 pm

Tornado wrote:I think part of the issue is that the drink providers themselves put up the money. We may have issues getting them to do that here in WA. Not sure how SA still manages it.
Joe Citizen puts up the money for the deposit refund... The 10c is just incorporated into the price of the product.

And on the flip side - it won't help reduce glass around the place. Roads have been pretty crap here lately also.


Edit: I should have also added - we collect them and go down to the recycling place every so often to cash them in. But then for us it's either chuck them in the recycling bin, or chuck them in a separate bag/bin and collect them until you have enough worthwhile taking in. That said lately I've been down to the depot with an old filing cabinet, old BBQ and old washing machine and no cans :mrgreen:

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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby HappyHumber » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:00 pm

Carrots wrote:Joe Citizen puts up the money for the deposit refund... The 10c is just incorporated into the price of the product.
My experience with the way the scheme was implemented in the Canadian province of Alberta was that the additional surchage was quite openly stated at the end of your docket at the bigger supermarkets. There was a breakdown by category, if my memory serves correctly, of glass bottles, cardboard cartons and plastic juice/soda bottles which were also included, albeit there was different rates for each.

It may have been nationwide, I can't remember now as it was 15 years ago I was there. I know Alberta had a seperate or different Provincial Sales Tax on top of their national GST as well. I'm sure some lurking Canuckies more au fait with the current status quo will pipe up.

I remember the PST/GST not being included in the sticker price of goods, which made shoe-string budgetting harder as you went up and down the aisles, with your shopping list, pen paper & calculator but I DID like the container surcharge scheme being so obviously spelled out.
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Tornado » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:13 pm

Carrots wrote:
Tornado wrote:I think part of the issue is that the drink providers themselves put up the money. We may have issues getting them to do that here in WA. Not sure how SA still manages it.
Joe Citizen puts up the money for the deposit refund... The 10c is just incorporated into the price of the product.
As an Accountant I get that. Implementing it as a policy would also be a risk as you are indirectly asking the public to fund it.
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Carrots
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Carrots » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:20 pm

My post is based on what we do in SA already...

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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Tornado » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:47 pm

Carrots wrote:My post is based on what we do in SA already...
I'm pretty sure at some point the other states had it and let it go. At least I think we did it when I was a kid in Tas.
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:56 pm

Tornado wrote:
Carrots wrote:
Tornado wrote:I think part of the issue is that the drink providers themselves put up the money. We may have issues getting them to do that here in WA. Not sure how SA still manages it.
Joe Citizen puts up the money for the deposit refund... The 10c is just incorporated into the price of the product.
As an Accountant I get that. Implementing it as a policy would also be a risk as you are indirectly asking the public to fund it.
I grew up in South Australia and Northern Territory where both states (at the time) had cash for cans and bottles. As a kid I found it great! We collected up bottles and cans and took them to the local deli to trade for salted plums in Darwin. Awesome!

My dad lives in SA and still takes bottles back for refunds.
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queequeg
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby queequeg » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:17 pm

The 10c is effectively a bond on the can. Return the can and get the bond back.
I am not sure how it works in SA, but the scheme that was put up in NT required all the packages to be returned to a big collection depot for sorting, presumably because the 10c needs to be returned by the original manufacturers, which can be any number of beverage makers. The cost of the collection is more than the 10c deposit, so there was a question over who picks up the difference.
Not really factored in was how much, impact, if any, there would be on council recycling schemes if households were saving up all their packaging to drive to a central collection depot instead.
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Thoglette
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:06 pm

queequeg wrote: The cost of the collection is more than the 10c deposit, so there was a question over who picks up the difference.
The economics of these sorts of containers is that the cost of cleanup for a tossed container is waaaaay more than 10c, especially for broken glass. Local councils (ie rate payers) are currently "picking up the difference".

This is a classic example where the retail price of the product does not reflect the total product cost, resulting in lower nett productivity due to "incorrect" buying decisions resulting from the pricing flaw.

A bit like plastic bags and takeaway containers - if you buy these in the thousands they're significantly cheaper than wood/paper alternatives. But the cost of collecting and processing these is enormous compared to wood/paper, which can be composted. Wood/Paper/wax will also safely rot away in situ, which plastics can't (remember the gyres!). This is all before one even mentions The War

However the cost of the packaging as part of a total product/service delivery (eg your $5 sushi) is inconsequential. Adding a 2c impost on plastic bags or containers would completely change the economics of retail packaging - all without really affecting the retail price.
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby queequeg » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:50 pm

That's my point. The 10c is the deposit refund, so the price of the drink goes up 10c on the assumption that if you want your 10c back, you return it. The 10c has nothing to do with the collection cost, which is what the collection depots were complaining about in NT. I think it was something in the order of 20 to 30c per container, which included the return of the 10c to the end consumer. My understanding was that the sorting was claim the 10c deposit back from the original producer, whether that be Lion, SAB, CCA or any other number of producers.

Does SA do kerbside recycling, or does everyone save their containers and take them somewhere when they have enough to make it worth the trip?
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:33 pm

queequeg wrote:That's my point. ....which is what the collection depots were complaining about in NT.
I'd be quite happy to see the deposit around the 50c to $1 mark.
While that would upset some people (read: coca cola amatil and a few competitors) it would also have a positive health impact of reducing the impulse purchase of high sugar drinks.

Also the appropriate collection depots operators are the organisations already bearing the cost - local councils. Who under the new arrangment have seen their broken-glass-cleanup costs drop.

I also suspect that there initial collection depots are highly inefficient - they will be doing everything manually (as opposed to reverse-vending machines, for example)
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Re: Glass - how to get WA to inact deposit like SA?

Postby queequeg » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:22 pm

I don't think it matters what the deposit amount is, as this amount gets thrown on top of the price of the purchase, which you then get back when you return the container.
Keep in mind, this would apply to every package that comes in glass, pet, tetra packs or aluminium. there is no reason it would also not apply to anything packaged in a recyclable material.
I wonder how much the average punter would get upset if their beer went up $1 a bottle/can for the container deposit, or your $1 a litre milk went up to $2 a litre because of the deposit on the bottle (remember when milk came in returnable glass?).
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