Looking for information on use of petrol PAPCs in WA.

[cj7hawk]

Hi all,

OK, a first post for the forum, so G'day - and being new I'm not really sure how the forum culture works yet , so please forgive any forum faux-pas -

I'm looking for some information ( ideally with certainty and links to specific details if online ) with respect to use of petrol-based PAPCs (power-assisted pedal cycles) in WA.

Some background information - I've only recently returned to riding bikes, having restored a couple of bikes that were bought about a decade ago and left as shed ornaments for too long. I could go on about fitness and things, but in truth I'm only trying to get fit enough to ride the bike without gasping for air like a fish out of water whenever I encounter a hill, so that I can get around on it more comfortably - Mainly because I have some research to do that involves riding bikes and came to realize that not having ridden for 20 or so years, I wasn't coping with even short rides. ( ie, struggled up a shallow hill and had to walk it the first time ). Well, I have improved with effort over the past month at least.

Although I still need to use pedal-only bikes for some of the research, but I recently restored an old petrol-based PAPC which was pretty badly damaged, and had to rebuild just about everything on it, including axles and rims/spokes, and much of the engine which was missing parts. It seems to comply with the requirements OK now I've finished rebuilding it ( average max-speed around 24 kph, with estimate of max 27kph for 200w under same conditions, often slower downhill than coasting ) but am having trouble locating details on where PAPCs ( Electric and Petrol ) can be used and taken within WA and what considerations there are with specific respect to petrol PAPCs.

Some of the specific questions I'm looking to solve -
Transperth, for example, seems to allow PAPCs, but doesn't say anything about petrol ones, though some websites say they don't allow them on trains.
Trails in national parks etc? Bike trails are clearly marked and promoted, but they don't say anything about PAPCs either electric or petrol.
Noise Requirements? I modified the exhaust and got it pretty quiet, and tuning doesn't matter, but what are the max noise levels of a PAPC if any?
What other regulations and bylaws ( other than the road traffic act ) are relevant, and are there any specific locations that have laws regarding PAPCs ( electric or petrol ).

Thanks in advanced for any responses - Pointers to other information would be helpful also - Responses outside of the example questions appreciated also -

Regards,
David.

[eldavo]

The concession is for power assistance to qualify as a bicycle and be entitled to all the rights and restrictions of bicycles.

So when obeying the concession criteria, you are a treated as a bicycle by the law.

What is the research?

[Hugor]

According to this article petrol powered bicycles are currently illegal in NSW and QLD.
There are moves to make them banned nationally.
There's been at least 1 death that I've heard of recently in WA.

http://www.westernadvocate.com.au/story ... -buzz-off/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Baalzamon]

You will really annoy cyclists with a smelly petrol bike. I hate them with a pet hate. Also they burn fossil fuels and look where this planet is headed.....

[bychosis]

The smoky noisy ones with Wwaaaayyyyy more power than legal are the ones that annoy cyclists. If, as you say, it is a pedal assist and has been made as quiet as possible then you shouldn't have any issues until the actual legalities change. Courtesy and respect of other path users will go a long way with it too.

If you are only just getting back to riding you might also find that after a while you gain fitness and don't need it anyway.

[Hugor]

To be honest it really annoys me.
I wouldn't care if they use the shoulder of roads that cyclists use but on the PSP is unacceptable IMO.
I had a massive exchange of words with this guy on his petrol powered scooter recently.
It was noisy, fume emitting but overall probably of legal output as I easily got past him.
He took objection to me taking photos of him with my phone. We pulled over and exchanged a few character references.
Whilst we were doing this a lot of other cyclists he passed pulled up and took objection to his presence on the path.
Legalities aside I think a lot of people do not appreciate petrol powered vehicles on PSP's. I hope the ban comes here soon.

[cj7hawk]

The concession is for power assistance to qualify as a bicycle and be entitled to all the rights and restrictions of bicycles.

So when obeying the concession criteria, you are a treated as a bicycle by the law.

What is the research?

Hi Eldavo,

The research is around use of a night vision equipment while riding a bicycle or PAPC, mainly offroad. Most of it is being conducted on private property, but there are limits to the suitability of tracks I have available on private property.

For the most part, it's much the same as riding during the day, except through a more limited field of view, but there are specific issues that occur simply because a bicycle is being used.

Thanks for the response -

David.

[eldavo]

Hi D2,

Petrol is sub 35cc and 200W with 'pedals as primary drive method', so if you remove pedals for foot pegs (or are a scooter like pictured above), you are no longer a bicycle and an unregistered motor vehicle.

Petrol is peak power rated so suffers compared to electric that is nominal power, pros and cons for both.
e.g. Petrol you can have a large tank and refuel at stations so can ride all day at ~25kph. Complexity and reliability you probably already know about =D
For night riding in fine weather I would want electric so you can see the nocturnal wildlife that would be a great secondary attraction of tunnel night vision. If you have $2k for a high quality high capacity frame battery, you can also ride all night without having to carry multiple cheaper ones and change them over.

There is a Melbourne seller restricting sub-35cc chinese petrol kits (4 stroke also iirc), dyno and engineer certifying them with certificate for RTA (DoT here) evidence and Police queries.
The cost is ~$750 for the legal 200W one compared to $350 for powerful illegal versions.

Petrol is going the way of Mad Max it seems.

[cj7hawk]

Hi D2,

Petrol is sub 35cc and 200W with 'pedals as primary drive method', so if you remove pedals for foot pegs (or are a scooter like pictured above), you are no longer a bicycle and an unregistered motor vehicle.

Petrol is peak power rated so suffers compared to electric that is nominal power, pros and cons for both.
e.g. Petrol you can have a large tank and refuel at stations so can ride all day at ~25kph. Complexity and reliability you probably already know about =D
For night riding in fine weather I would want electric so you can see the nocturnal wildlife that would be a great secondary attraction of tunnel night vision. If you have $2k for a high quality high capacity frame battery, you can also ride all night without having to carry multiple cheaper ones and change them over.

There is a Melbourne seller restricting sub-35cc chinese petrol kits (4 stroke also iirc), dyno and engineer certifying them with certificate for RTA (DoT here) evidence and Police queries.
The cost is ~$750 for the legal 200W one compared to $350 for powerful illegal versions.

Petrol is going the way of Mad Max it seems.

Thanks eldavo,

Much appreciated - the pointer on the scooter - I had been wondering about that and wondered if they might be compliant - Now you've pointed out what looks like the correct perspective based on the laws ( and the pegs/pedals ) that seems pretty logical.

I was kind of disappointed to see the littany of anti-petrol sentiment in the thread responses, though I can't say I didn't expect it - sadly I expect most cyclists don't realize any valid attack on petrol bicycles within the laws is a far more damaging attack on their own freedoms, especially when it comes from within the community. I've been here before watching a community turn on it's own and I know it's going to end up with all bicycles requiring registration as the community fractures.

Anyway, yes, pedals are critical to what I'm doing, and low noise output. Electric costs are a problem, because I do this research as a hobby and usually put everything I make from it back into it, and I might not get a return on investment, so expensive equipment is always a problem.

And yes, the wildlife is very visible - In mentioning tunnels you might be referring to the one on a bike trail near midland, and if so, it's not too bad with night vision, though the wildlife doesn't go into the tunnel - outside the tunnel though I usually count 20+ kangaroos per visit and they don't seem to mind humans approaching in the dark as we look like kangaroos to them until we start speaking or do something else oddly unkangaroo-like. Anyway. that's one trail I was planning on using so if you're in the area and want to see how it goes, let me know.

Thanks again for the extra info -

David

[bychosis]

Petrol is going the way of Mad Max it seems.

Cult following with a pending sequel?

[eldavo]

Sorry I meant tunnel vision like regular lighting on an unlit PSP at night. Peripheral is crowded by walls or fence and bush so it's not natural like daylight. Night vision with even exposure across peripheral field of vision would be interesting.

No need for the bans on petrol, people can put a sail up and breach the rules too, so that approach misses the issue, but there isn't enough unbiased critical thinking, and forums/Facebook/news comments just show how silly mob like it becomes. Not much hope really

Re: Mad Max, as in uncivilised and bogan until apocalypse needs when electronics fail and mechanical rises up in need. Steam will make a comeback for the hippies

[cj7hawk]

Sorry I meant tunnel vision like regular lighting on an unlit PSP at night. Peripheral is crowded by walls or fence and bush so it's not natural like daylight. Night vision with even exposure across peripheral field of vision would be interesting.

No need for the bans on petrol, people can put a sail up and breach the rules too, so that approach misses the issue, but there isn't enough unbiased critical thinking, and forums/Facebook/news comments just show how silly mob like it becomes. Not much hope really

Re: Mad Max, as in uncivilised and bogan until apocalypse needs when electronics fail and mechanical rises up in need. Steam will make a comeback for the hippies

Oh, I never thought of that aspect - Night Vision ( Well, most of it ) has a standard FOV of around 40 degrees, so it too is a little like tunnel vision, but not so easy to notice - I usually ride with a spread headlight, but I can't see what's on the road in front of me, so I end up trusting there's no debris. With a spot headlight I can see further, but can't see what's either side of me - Maybe I just have a lousy headlight -

Night vision sees all the way to the horizon, so it's just the 40 degree FOV to worry about - and some other physiological effects that I'm looking into - But generally it makes a starry night seem pretty familiar and it's easy to forget you're wearing it.

Thanks for the clarification - When I get out and try it, I'll post some pics back here -

David

[trailgumby]

I was kind of disappointed to see the littany of anti-petrol sentiment in the thread responses, though I can't say I didn't expect it - sadly I expect most cyclists don't realize any valid attack on petrol bicycles within the laws is a far more damaging attack on their own freedoms, especially when it comes from within the community. I've been here before watching a community turn on it's own and I know it's going to end up with all bicycles requiring registration as the community fractures.

The issue with petrol is the difficulty with the 200W (or 250W) compliance. If it is possible for them to be compliant then most of the legal basis of objection goes away.

However I am most certainly a sceptic as a result of my 20+ years experience of racing internal combustion powered R/C model race cars with 10% or less of the nominated 35cc engine capacity putting out many multiples of that.

However, the obnoxious emissions these things throw into the air that we breathe do not. Sharing the transit lane of a morning with 4-stroke motorbikes and 2-stroke scooters that supposedly have emissions laws to control them is bad enough. Sharing cycle paths with these things, the majority of which are badly tuned because of cheap carburettors and spark plugs, blowing copious amounts of unburned fuel stink into the air at well in excess of 85dB is too much.

Bring on the bans.

Your comments about registration show an ignorance of the law. They are already required to be registered - any powered vehicle has a presumption applied to it of being a registrable vehicle.

There is a specific exemption applied to powered vehicles where they are pedal bicycles. The conditions that must be met are that the power must be auxilliary to pedal propulsion (that is, not engage unless the rider is pedalling) and, as the law currently stands, be limited to 200W or less. Amendments are in the pipeline to allow up to 250W of assistance, on the proviso it must cut out above 25km/hr, but to my knowledge have not yet been adopted.

Here's the kicker that you may not have picked up from the legislation.

The Acts Interpretation Acts in all States state that where the law is framed as a general principle (all powered vehicles need to be registered) with an exemption (pedal bicycles, with auxilliary power of 200W or less) the onus of proof is reversed.. If the police charge the rider with using an unregistered and uninsured vehicle and riding without a license, it is up to the rider to prove they comply with the exemption. The police do not need to prove or disprove a thing.

An appeal against a magistrate's dismissal of charges was won recently by the QPS on this basis.

I hope this certifier stays in business or some people are going to have serious charges laid against them and will have no recourse to usable evidence to prove their compliance.

[Mulger bill]

I'm not sure if WA is the same but if you take a petrol powered bike on a train in Vic, be prepared for a whole world of legal pain if you're busted. Serious safety issue.

[FXST01]

Oh, I never thought of that aspect - Night Vision ( Well, most of it ) has a standard FOV of around 40 degrees, so it too is a little like tunnel vision, but not so easy to notice - I usually ride with a spread headlight, but I can't see what's on the road in front of me, so I end up trusting there's no debris. With a spot headlight I can see further, but can't see what's either side of me - Maybe I just have a lousy headlight -

Night vision sees all the way to the horizon, so it's just the 40 degree FOV to worry about - and some other physiological effects that I'm looking into - But generally it makes a starry night seem pretty familiar and it's easy to forget you're wearing it.

Thanks for the clarification - When I get out and try it, I'll post some pics back here -

David

Night Vision equipment doesn't see that far and then it blurs off and it depends on available environmental light. Using NV gear with an IR illuminator will help you see further but only to where the IR is pointing, so it will be similar to your spot headlight. Plus with NV gear you will lose your depth of field and you will be essential blind once you take the NV gear off and pray you don't see white light pointed at you. Using NV gear too long will give you a headache.

[cj7hawk]

Oh, I never thought of that aspect - Night Vision ( Well, most of it ) has a standard FOV of around 40 degrees, so it too is a little like tunnel vision, but not so easy to notice - I usually ride with a spread headlight, but I can't see what's on the road in front of me, so I end up trusting there's no debris. With a spot headlight I can see further, but can't see what's either side of me - Maybe I just have a lousy headlight -

Night vision sees all the way to the horizon, so it's just the 40 degree FOV to worry about - and some other physiological effects that I'm looking into - But generally it makes a starry night seem pretty familiar and it's easy to forget you're wearing it.

Thanks for the clarification - When I get out and try it, I'll post some pics back here -

David

Night Vision equipment doesn't see that far and then it blurs off and it depends on available environmental light. Using NV gear with an IR illuminator will help you see further but only to where the IR is pointing, so it will be similar to your spot headlight. Plus with NV gear you will lose your depth of field and you will be essential blind once you take the NV gear off and pray you don't see white light pointed at you. Using NV gear too long will give you a headache.

Hi FXST01 -

LoL! The gear I use is a bit better than that - I can see right through to the horizon just fine - However fine detail is lost at distance when available light drops too far, and the lack of shadows makes it difficult to pick out the terrain sometimes, especially with monocular vision. I can add IR light if I need to see something at detail at range ( my IR lights go about a kilometer and are about the same size as a pocket flashlight ) but generally I avoid using them as IR backscatter screws up far-field images - I do use extra IR when underground though - no starlight -.

Here's an example - far treeline (AT) 2kms, but nearer individual trees to about 400m visible separately - light around 200 uLux, close to NL6 levels of darkness. Almost as dark as it gets in Australia, and very low IR reflectivity due to dead grass/vegetation.


I get lights pointed at me all the time, and it's a pain -the gear I have can withstand it, but it does cause undue risk of burns and I can't afford to go replacing it, so generally I avoid doing testing anywhere I'm likely to have bright lights pointed at me - Some people get headaches ( and there are physiological reasons for that too ) but generally I'm pretty much used to it - And two to three hours continuous use at a time isn't very much anyway. Using Gen1 or bad Gen2 stuff gives me a headache though, but I rarely use that kind of kit unless repairing/testing it.

Regards
David

[cj7hawk]

I was kind of disappointed to see the littany of anti-petrol sentiment in the thread responses, though I can't say I didn't expect it - sadly I expect most cyclists don't realize any valid attack on petrol bicycles within the laws is a far more damaging attack on their own freedoms, especially when it comes from within the community. I've been here before watching a community turn on it's own and I know it's going to end up with all bicycles requiring registration as the community fractures.

The issue with petrol is the difficulty with the 200W (or 250W) compliance. If it is possible for them to be compliant then most of the legal basis of objection goes away.

I feel like an accusation of non-compliance here is aimed at me, so I suppose I should demonstrate a reasonable effort to ensure compliance since I'm asking for help from forum members.

Without a dyno, it's difficult to get exact power outputs, but speed vs power is pretty well known - eg, bikecalculator.com - Tells me 200w should push a typical heavier rider about 27 kph on a mountain bike or near enough on a flat road, with no wind, riding normally for comfort, not speed.

A GPS test is enough to confirm whether an engine is under 200w then -

eg, considering both uphill and downhill,


This shows that mostly ( except on steeper downhills ) the speed won't get above 27 kph, and I rarely past 30, except twice, when pedalling, once with the clutch engaged, once disengaged. The motor cut-in causes a drop in speed, because then I'm fighting wind and the motor. On a very steep hill, the engine provides excellent vacuum braking ( can't do that on electric! Much safer with petrol ) and no brake fade or excess wear. I can go much faster without the engine, by pedaling, but that's not the point.

From this, it looks pretty near and clearly under what would be expected from 200w, and would suggest that reasonable steps have been taken to ensure that the power remains below 200w. For what it's worth, flat-out level is about 24/25 kph, and even Transport reckon it to be around 25kph so it looks pretty much reasonable to assume the power is under 200w, and the testing was quite reasonable also and it looks like the motor produces around 180w.

I trust this gets out of the way of assuming I transplanted a V8 Twin Turbo onto my k-mart bike and will help the thread -

With modern android phones, it's not really all that difficult to ensure compliance to at least a reasonable level.

Speedview is free and is probably great to download the charts and look at them on excel if you want to see how you're going... It will probably detect you have a virus too. Ignore that.

BTW, The WA department of transport used to be quite happy to promote putting petrol motors on bikes and did so to the media in 2012.

However I am most certainly a sceptic as a result of my 20+ years experience of racing internal combustion powered R/C model race cars with 10% or less of the nominated 35cc engine capacity putting out many multiples of that.

This demonstrates a misunderstanding of engineering principles - It seems that many people look at the absolute maximum output of an engine and assume it to be constant for the entire range of RPM, when in fact if you restrict air and fuel to an engine, you can hold it for any point on the torque curve, engineer your maximum speed around that point, then the engine is still producing maximum power, but at a lower level still on it's engineered power curve, and then dropping off immediately after that. More so, the engine will provide a measure of braking after that point. While it's possible to argue that a petrol engine could be "tuned" or have the detuning removed, it's even easier to overpower an electric bike, without any signs of it having been changed. As a former CAMS official, I can ensure you that there are many practical ways to prove than an ICE hasn't been tampered with, but no easy way to determine if an electric engine has been tampered with. This was used to great effect as an equalizer of turbo cars against non-turbo cars in motorsport.

However, the obnoxious emissions these things throw into the air that we breathe do not. Sharing the transit lane of a morning with 4-stroke motorbikes and 2-stroke scooters that supposedly have emissions laws to control them is bad enough. Sharing cycle paths with these things, the majority of which are badly tuned because of cheap carburettors and spark plugs, blowing copious amounts of unburned fuel stink into the air at well in excess of 85dB is too much.

The emissions argument is completely untrue. Well, at least when considered in context. Although the US EPA considers that two-stroke engines cause around 350 times the pollution of a modern clean 4-stroke ( note they really go to extremes on that one ) we're just using 200w, and the fuel we burn is pretty much proportional, so a 2-stroke petrol bike produces about 1/3 of the pollution of a car, though if you consider speed, and the fact that you have to run a 2-stroke bike for longer to get where the same car goes, it's about even. So even if you swapped cars for bikes, there would be less pollution, though 2-stroke oil does have an odor, but as pollution goes, it's pretty gentle on the environment ( and us ) in comparison by virtue of fuel quantity burned. Run a bike on 4-stroke and the argument gets turned around and then a bike is very green.

OK, but they smell and they and noisy - Just like cars... Seems many riders hate petrol PAPC's because they are like cars, and car drivers hate them because they are like bicycles...

Personally, I think the bigger problem is people flouting road rules, but that's on all kinds of bicycles. Something should be done about compliance but why hate those who try to follow the rules?

Bring on the bans.
Your comments about registration show an ignorance of the law. They are already required to be registered - any powered vehicle has a presumption applied to it of being a registrable vehicle.

There is a specific exemption applied to powered vehicles where they are pedal bicycles. The conditions that must be met are that the power must be auxilliary to pedal propulsion (that is, not engage unless the rider is pedalling) and, as the law currently stands, be limited to 200W or less. Amendments are in the pipeline to allow up to 250W of assistance, on the proviso it must cut out above 25km/hr, but to my knowledge have not yet been adopted.

Actually, I was referring to registration of non-powered bicycles... Most of the breaches of the road traffic act that most people see are by regular bike riders and I see it all the time in Perth. Red lights, stop signs, failing to signal, failing to keep left, failing to follow other rules and regulations - Haven't you noticed car drivers already calling for pushbikes to be registered? Given the arguments being used to remove petrol PAPCs from NSW, they all apply equally to non-powered bikes as well - This was my point. A community that does not support even aspect of the community will be picked apart and cycling has a lot of enemies and most of them drive SUVs. It would make more sense to defend petrol PAPCs and beat them up internally to keep them from causing the kinds of problems that result in all bike riders being penalized... It's like a venn diagram. They sit in the bicyles circle... If they are banned, then they take a chunk of bicycle freedom with it - they used "cheap brakes" as an excuse to ban them in NSW... Think about that. Cheap *bicycle" brakes... And they justified that all bikes were dangerous over 19 kph... Think about that for a moment... To go after bikes that typically managed to go 24kph, they demonstrated that any bike over 19 kph was a danger... "bring on the bans" = reduce freedoms for all bike users. Unless you want 19kph speed limits enforced on all bike rider?

Anyway, with respect to the law, it says no such thing about pedaling under 200w - and if it did, it would be "Ancilliary" not "Auxilliary" - Look that up to understand the difference. Pedelec's are Ancilliary. PAPCs are Auxilliary.

Anyway, since you bring up the act...

motor vehicle —
(a) in relation to authorisation to drive, means a vehicle that is built to be propelled by a motor that forms part of the vehicle;
(b) otherwise, means a selfpropelled vehicle that is not operated on rails, and includes a trailer, semitrailer or caravan while attached to the vehicle, but does not include a power assisted pedal cycle;

and

power assisted pedal cycle means a vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism operated solely by human power, to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum output not exceeding 200 watts;

and

Also, updated from DoT, just a few days ago;
ref: http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/activetr ... /25169.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Power-Assisted Pedal Cycle (PAPC)

A power-assisted bicycle (or power-assisted pedal cycle [PAPC]) is a pedal cycle with auxiliary motor(s) attached to provide assistance to the rider in propelling the vehicle. PAPCs can make cycling a more enjoyable and feasible option for many people, including those who need to make longer journeys, who live in hilly areas or who may not be able to easily pedal a non-powered bicycle, such as seniors or those with disabilities.

In Western Australia, there are two categories of PAPCs:

Those with a maximum power output of 200 watts, and;
Pedelecs, which are a form of electric bicycle that complies with the European Standard EN 15194.
To be compliant, a pedelec must:

Have a maximum continuous power output of the motor which does not exceed 250 watts.
Have an electric motor.
Require the rider to pedal to access the power.
Have the power cut out when the pedelec reaches 25 km/h, or sooner if the rider stops pedalling.
Be certified by the manufacturer and labelled as complying with EN 15194, i.e. the label must include the manufacturers name, the motor's cut-off speed in km/h and the electric motor's maximum continuous rated power output in watts.
In 2012, the federal Department of Infrastructure and Transport amended the definition of PAPCs in the Australian Design Rules to allow for the importation of pedelecs. The Western Australia Government is in the process of amending legislation to accommodate pedelecs. The legislation is estimated to be completed by April 2015. Until that time only PAPCs with a maximum power output of 200 watts can legally be ridden on shared paths.

To be compliant, the pedals on a PAPC must be the main source of propulsion and, therefore, a PAPC does not include electric bicycles without pedals or powered mobility devices. A PAPC which uses the engine as a primary source of power and/or has an engine capacity which exceeds 200 watts is classified as a motorcycle and the vehicle and rider must be licensed if used on the road. These vehicles are prohibited on shared paths.

Those who ride PAPCs are bound by the same rules and responsibilities as for other bicycle riders. The only difference is that PAPCs cannot be ridden by people younger than 16 years of age with the motor engaged (Regulation 228 of the Road Traffic Code 2000). Riders of compliant PAPCs do not require registration or a license and can ride on all roads and paths, except where bicycles are explicitly excluded.

For the rules and regulations related to bicycles, please see the Cycling rules brochure or the Office of Road Safety.

So, no pedaling required on a PAPC, but you must be able to! In any event, if you'd ever ridden a Petrol PAPC, you'd know it's impossible to ride a PAPC without pedals because they only produce max power at max speed, due to the available ways to restrict power to a PAPC engine to keep it under 200w. While it is possible to do a standing start with the engine, it's difficult and usually the engine stalls, and won't really run at all under about 11kph. Electrics don't have that limitation.

Here's the kicker that you may not have picked up from the legislation.

The Acts Interpretation Acts in all States state that where the law is framed as a general principle (all powered vehicles need to be registered) with an exemption (pedal bicycles, with auxilliary power of 200W or less) the onus of proof is reversed.. If the police charge the rider with using an unregistered and uninsured vehicle and riding without a license, it is up to the rider to prove they comply with the exemption. The police do not need to prove or disprove a thing.

An appeal against a magistrate's dismissal of charges was won recently by the QPS on this basis.

I hope this certifier stays in business or some people are going to have serious charges laid against them and will have no recourse to usable evidence to prove their compliance.

Ahh, now that's helpful information - Can you direct me to the case records at all? I'd really like to look into that further.

In the mean time, anyone with an android phone can reasonably prove compliance with a quick run and record... This is more helpful, because it's important to maintain compliance, and servicing the engine and replacing parts with different ones could inadvertently change the power output of a petrol PAPC.

<edited to adjust font colour for better readability of quoted sections of transport information>

[ColinOldnCranky]

According to this article petrol powered bicycles are currently illegal in NSW and QLD.
There are moves to make them banned nationally.
There's been at least 1 death that I've heard of recently in WA.

http://www.westernadvocate.com.au/story ... -buzz-off/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There have been deaths attributed to bicyclists too. For example, one of an elderly couple barreled by a warrior in Nedlands a few years back from memory, no fault whatsoever attributed to the pedestrians.

If you don't like them, just say so.

(I don't like them BTW.)

[ColinOldnCranky]

Isn't it interesting that so many will respond to the (usually unreasonable) demands of many motorists and haters with the refrain "I am legally entitled to ride two abreast", "I am legally entitled to ride out from the curb" etc?

On that basis (flawed basis IMO) many here cannot validly object to petrol powered bikes in states where they are legal and comply with the allowed specs (power, pedal assist, etc).

(Waits for inevitable flaming )

[casual_cyclist]

It depends.... doesn't everything? Generally I do not like the petrol motor bicycles simply because they are obnoxiously loud and smelly. However, there is a cylist on my shared path who switches off their motor when their is an oncoming cyclist. I like that.

Not all the power assisted bicycles are illegal either. There is one cyclist that has an electric assisted bike that I doubt goes much faster than 25 km/h even when the cyclist is pedalling full tilt. Soft pedalling I can pretty much keep up.

[CXCommuter]

Isn't it interesting that so many will respond to the (usually unreasonable) demands of many motorists and haters with the refrain "I am legally entitled to ride two abreast", "I am legally entitled to ride out from the curb" etc?

On that basis (flawed basis IMO) many here cannot validly object to petrol powered bikes in states where they are legal and comply with the allowed specs (power, pedal assist, etc).

(Waits for inevitable flaming )

No flaming from me Colin- 100% agree even though I don't like them it is not up to me to confront people doing things legally (and illegally also- plenty of flaming from people about this on on here also- helmet laws anyone??)

[bychosis]

And if they were illegal if you were riding on a quiet, non smelly bike in a considerate way 98%* of people wouldn't have any issue. I don't like petrol powered bikes much either, but I've only ever come into contact with stinky, noisy two strokes on poorly maintained kmart bikes.

* I surveyed 100 imaginary people and then skewed their responses to suit my opinion

[ldrcycles]

the engine provides excellent vacuum braking ( can't do that on electric! Much safer with petrol )

Riiight. And the regenerative braking on hybrid cars is done by what exactly?

[trailgumby]

Also, updated from DoT, just a few days ago;
ref: http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/activetr ... /25169.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Power-Assisted Pedal Cycle (PAPC)

A power-assisted bicycle (or power-assisted pedal cycle [PAPC]) is a pedal cycle with auxiliary motor(s) attached to provide assistance to the rider in propelling the vehicle. PAPCs can make cycling a more enjoyable and feasible option for many people, including those who need to make longer journeys, who live in hilly areas or who may not be able to easily pedal a non-powered bicycle, such as seniors or those with disabilities.

In Western Australia, there are two categories of PAPCs:

Those with a maximum power output of 200 watts, and;
Pedelecs, which are a form of electric bicycle that complies with the European Standard EN 15194.... etc

You've missed a key point, which I have bolded above. The consequence of that little word äuxilliary in fact means in plain english, and has been interpreted in case law to mean, that the bicycle must be pedalled for the assistance to operate.

The rationale applied is thus: If at any time the bike can be propelled by the engine alone without being pedalled, the engine is the primary source of power, not auxilliary. In the appeal case I have in mind, this was one of the key considerations in the judgement, although in this case the device in question was electric powered. Because the device could be propelled by the motor without the operator pedalling, it was not an auxiliary motor, and therefore the device failed to comply with the exemption, and was ruled to be a registerable vehicle.

AS a result, the appeal was granted and the woman was convicted of operating an unregistered and uninsured vehicle without a license, although due to her being able to demonstrate she had made reasonable enquiries of statutory authorities who had given her incorrect advice, the conviction was not recorded.

[Baalzamon]

Also if you intend on cycling at night on the Freeway PSP with nightvision gear. Good luck with being able to see with oncoming cyclists. Cyclists choose too see by and too seen by. Most hardcore night riders have excellent nights which will kill your nightvision gear. Just think about the ones who wear helmet lights, see a cyclist coming the other way, good chance they will illuminate said ninja (cyclist with no lights) and you will be thoroughly blinded. Might be an idea to rethink that.