Petrol PAPC usage in Western Australia - What I found out.

[Tornado]

Very hard to police and i doubt the police really want to be pulling PAPCs over to make sure they meet noise/speed regs etc

So should I go ahead and begin fabricating my Stroker kits for whipper snippers? Love to see a PAPC stroked and rocking a lumpy cam.

[NASHIE]

Very hard to police and i doubt the police really want to be pulling PAPCs over to make sure they meet noise/speed regs etc

So should I go ahead and begin fabricating my Stroker kits for whipper snippers? Love to see a PAPC stroked and rocking a lumpy cam.

Fad away mate, bolt them up to some oldskool chopper bikes, throw on your colours and you've got more chance of being pulled over for club association

[NewStew]

I have many thousands of people passing me in a month, some being irregular riders. I'd suggest, nay, I'd emphatically state that is extremely rare for even a beginner to average less than, say, 15kph. And certainly not less than 10kph.

Have to agree with that - my 10 year old can manage 33km at an 18km/h average and even the 8 year old can manage 15km/h over 25km.... and these are not freak kids that ride all the time, just regular kids on mountain bikes (10 year old on a 26" and 8 year old on a 20" - really do need to get him a new bike). Both can cruise comfortably on the flat at more than 15km/h. I would say the average person can sit easily on 20km/h but it is the endurance that a beginner wouldn't have.

[cj7hawk]

Very hard to police and i doubt the police really want to be pulling PAPCs over to make sure they meet noise/speed regs etc

So should I go ahead and begin fabricating my Stroker kits for whipper snippers? Love to see a PAPC stroked and rocking a lumpy cam.

Fad away mate, bolt them up to some oldskool chopper bikes, throw on your colours and you've got more chance of being pulled over for club association

That bike would be illegal - Missing front reflector on wheel...

Anyway, it's low-end torque required...And you can't achieve it through fixed gearing ( maybe if it's some kind of automatic gearing system - like a mid-drive does )... Maybe a blown V4 made from 4 whipper snipper motors coupled together with a restricted plenum would do it - That would climb 45 degree hills, and then only limited by being able to grip the surface beneath the tyres... Yet still stay under 200w... At very low speeds, you'd have a better power to weight ration than an F18 fighter... The challenge would be burning all the fuel allowance ( per second ) at very low revs to keep the torque high by sustaining the full airflow over the entire operating speed - The result is that you'd get an inverted torque curve, and a relatively flat power line... It might cost you a little in the way of top speed though, since you'd have trouble at higher revs, but it would be very quiet.... And would sounds like the bass in some cars.

LoL! Theoretically legal, but it would be a serious engineering effort - With an ICE engine, you'd only get there with a serious supercharger, and even then it would be difficult to drive it without losing too much power in the drive mechanism.

But yeah, by the letter of the law, it would be legal.

A better way would be to use a 500w, 1000w or 2000w electric with a torque/speed sensor that would provide the extra torque at low speeds ( electric engine output is similarly constrained by RPM to achieve speed, so a fixed controller that only delivered amps vs RPM could do it ) and then you could run flat 200w across most of the speed range - at least say between around 3kph and 24kph - Would almost spin the wheels from a standing start too - and yes, technically, would be completely legal - The same could be done with an unmodified 200w motor also, but it might burn out a bit quicker. And again, technically it's legal within the letter of the law -

Here's the Torque/Speed chart to show what's still compliant. It's a little difficult to read due to forum reformatting, but it shows how much thrust you can legally produce at different speeds while outputting less than 200w - Figures are based on a 660mm wheel.

speed KPH - m/s - Max Newtons - Newton Meters - Thrust ( Kg )
1 - 0.28 - 720 - 1090.91 - 73.47
2 - 0.56 - 360 - 545.45 - 36.73
3 - 0.83 - 240 - 363.64 - 24.49
4 - 1.11 - 180 - 272.73 - 18.37
5 - 1.39 - 144 - 218.18 - 14.69
6 - 1.67 - 120 - 181.82 - 12.24
7 - 1.94 - 102.9 - 155.84 - 10.50
8 - 2.22 - 90 - 136.36 - 9.18
9 - 2.5 - 80 - 121.21 - 8.16
10 - 2.78 - 72 - 109.09 - 7.35
11 - 3.06 - 65.5 - 99.17 - 6.68
12 - 3.33 - 60 - 90.91 - 6.12
13 - 3.61 - 55.4 - 83.92 - 5.65
14 - 3.89 - 51.4 - 77.92 - 5.24
15 - 4.17 - 48 - 72.73 - 4.90
16 - 4.44 - 45 - 68.18 - 4.59
17 - 4.72 - 42.4 - 64.17 - 4.33
18 - 5 - 40 - 60.61 - 4.08
19 - 5.28 - 37.9 - 57.42 - 3.87
20 - 5.56 - 36 - 54.55 - 3.67
21 - 5.83 - 34.3 - 51.95 - 3.50
22 - 6.11 - 32.7 - 49.59 - 3.34
23 - 6.39 - 31.3 - 47.43 - 3.19
24 - 6.67 - 30 - 45.45 - 3.06
25 - 6.94 - 28.8 - 43.64 - 2.94

Anyway, a petrol PAPC if well made and compliant is a lot of fun And yes, legal.

Regards
David

[Hugor]

Have to agree with that - my 10 year old can manage 33km at an 18km/h average and even the 8 year old can manage 15km/h over 25km.... and these are not freak kids that ride all the time, just regular kids on mountain bikes (10 year old on a 26" and 8 year old on a 20" - really do need to get him a new bike). Both can cruise comfortably on the flat at more than 15km/h. I would say the average person can sit easily on 20km/h but it is the endurance that a beginner wouldn't have.

So both of your kids could comfortably ride from Midland to Perth in approximately an hour.
Allowing for morning traffic on the Great Eastern, Causeway, Riverside Drive or Guildford Rd and parking time, I think they'd not be much slower than driving the route.

The OP's posts have made me consider why I dislike the use of petrol powered vehicles on PSP's.
I think the main part is the abuse of the privilege to use a cycle path.
As the roads have become much busier in the last 5 years people have been looking for alternative means of transport.
Fitness isn't gained overnight and many peoples priorities are transport rather than health benefits, so the easy option of ebikes and motorbikes becomes attractive.
I have no problem with the legal ones as 200W is not that much really. As soon as the path points up they slow to a pathetic speed and any reasonably fit cyclist easily passes them.
Any cyclist who can maintain 25-30km average has had a fair amount of saddle time, and developed the handling or traffic reading skills to do that reasonably safely.
The new new generation ebikers are instantly granted this speed without the experience and other skills to handle it.
I commute almost every single day and regularly have close passes, shaves from these vehicles, and hence have an inherent distrust and dislike of them.
I ride with a power meter can confirm that most of the ones I encounter are easily putting out more than 250W.

The petrol powered bikes I see around the Bayswater Maylands area are almost exclusively owned by bogan hoons.
There's an idiot I see regularly using one on Eighth street footpath in the hub of Maylands.
A number of them tear along the riverside path between Tranby house and the Tonkin highway which are very busy paths.

Anyhow the OP is clearly very enthusiastic about this subject.
The transport/fitness argument has failed as per many of the posts above.
If you say they're currently legal well we'll have to take your word on it, as most people don't have the time or enthusiasm to do the work you've done.
I suspect the legality will be short lived anyhow. A few more bogans with petrol powered esky's will see to that!

The OP might have an entertaining read in this thread if he hasn't already.
I suspect the audience there will be harsher than in here! 14 pages and still going.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=75839&hilit=bogan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cj7hawk]

Hi Hugor,

Thanks for the comments -

In terms of riding speed ( when riding for exercise/fun as opposed to for commute ) I can maintain similar speeds to the PAPC - I do that same circuit with both, with GPS logging, with the main difference being a steep hill on my path - If I fight it, I ride it faster. If I take it easy, then I cannot maintain the output - still though, the speeds are very similar - The issue for me is that I sweat heavily and arrive back after a short ride ( 0.5 to 1 hr ) absolutely wet... If I used a bike to commute, this wouldn't be acceptable, at least not to me. The speeds I mentioned are my "sweat free" speeds - or at least, where I'm reasonably normal on arrival - Although I'm probably well under-powered for this forum, I'm probably well ahead of most of the population who may turn to cycling in the future... Maybe as my fitness increases, I will sweat less, but I know that even professional elite cyclists will sweat a half-liter from an hour of riding at 24kph. This is more than I could accept for commuting, given no opportunity to clean up. Riding home it doesn't matter as much, but riding to work would be a problem for this reason.

I wouldn't say that all the skills to ride at 24kph come from ability, but some clearly do - I struggle up hills on a pushbike and while doing so, cannot maintain a straight line. But the same hill on a PAPC? no problem. So long as PAPC riders don't try to emulate professional riders, get too close or ride without due caution, it's safer for most new riders to have the power available. Also, downhills still terrify me at any reasonable speed. I can do between 50 and 60 downhill on a pushbike, and I'm not comfortable at all at those speeds... On the PAPC I just leave the engine engaged, and I do about 35 on the same hill. I've never broken 40 with the engine, even on hills where I coast about 50. Another reasons they are good for new riders.

The entire issue about compliance is a tricky one. The governments are deliberately turning a blind eye to it at the moment in all states, but given the emergence and prevalence of 2000w electric bicycles, I think this is going to be a future issue, especially in NSW and Queensland where they are already selling 45+ Kph e-bicycles to fill the gap left by petrol's removal. These are much faster and more dangerous than petrol ever was, and will be a serious issue to cyclist safety in the future - especially on PSPs. Yet they are silent and so easily ignored and, as a result, they are proliferating quite quickly. They are also nearly impossible to police and there are political reasons why they won't be policed. A conversion kit is easier to install than petrol and costs around $300 and installation only needs a wheel change and a rear rack. I suspect these may be the next target of the bogans - they might be silent but bogans respect speed and they are much faster than petrol.

With that, it may sound like I'm being a little hypocritical and hating on electric, but in truth, I love electric also - I'm currently building a 250w electric in anticipation for the changing of WA laws to allow it next month. However the limitations of electric are still pretty real for me, so I'm working on a solution to extend my range up to about 1000K's on it - and to keep my batteries from having to be replaced every year. It uses petrol, but it's relatively quiet, likely complies with all state laws in Australia ( including NSW and Qld ) and is remarkably efficient - And it is cleaner to use than electric-only - so aside from the gentle engine noise, it would almost go unnoticed on PSPs. It also works with both Pedelecs and PAPCs without changing their legal status. So while I like and embrace the current situation, I do see the possibility for improvement through a system that's less intrusive than Petrol PAPCs and doesn't have any of the limitations of an Electric PAPC. So far I've only tested it off-road but on-road tests will begin next month when my new electric kit parts arrive. Most of I I'll probably release into the public domain also - as the difficult parts to manufacture can be 3D printed.

Anyway, you are very correct that no-one should take my word on the subject - so here's a copy of the legal documents from the WA government -
http://aunv.blackice.com.au/userfiles/d ... _Bikes.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the official fact-sheet 13 released during the last legislative changes.

Regards
David

[ColinOldnCranky]

Oops. Clarification on a turn of phrase I used a while back:

You are getting a lot of support and respect for what is probably a not popular POV here for good reason.

The "good reason" was in reference to the research and articulation, not the fault we may find with people riding powered bikes. It should have read

You are getting a lot of support and respect for good reason for what is probably a not popular POV here.

[Tressie]

My experience: Affordably tuning a 48cc Happy Times for PAPC compliance.

I went through the process of clarifying legislation with one of the W.A. Police Department officers that deal with PAPC matters. Petrol PAPC is fine as long as it's 200W or less, and you keep all the other equipment intact (pedals etc.) and in good working order. You may be pulled over and questioned about your PAPC vehicle's compliance, and if the officer is unconvinced, then he may seize the bike for a dynamometer run. If found to be over 200W, you pay for the dyno run (~$2000) and are charged with operating an unlicensed motor vehicle. If the bike is found to comply, however, then you get your qualifying dyno test for free. Police officers are instructed to initially go by the engine marking of power rating, so the thing to do after de-rating your engine is to have it marked by an engineer.

I'm an engineer with two additional science degrees, one of which is in physics. My method for determining engine power does not involve direct measurements, but relies on information derived from a study of calculated drag characteristics. I instrumented my fully fitted PAPC bicycle with it's drive chain removed, and measured the rate at which it loses kinetic energy over a span of velocities. It's probably not very interesting, but after some calculation, I found that at 23.8kh/h, the rate at which my vehicle and I lost energy was exactly 200W. If my engine puts out 200W, then that's my maximum speed, an equilibrium between thrust and drag, on level ground with no wind.

I bought the popular 'Happy Times' 48cc Chinese 2-stroke motor kit, fitted it, and then did the required number of run-in kilometres below a set speed in a car park near my home. The stock 48cc engine puts out WAY more than 200W, so I installed a short length of 10mm diameter copper tubing within the carburettor, between the throttle slider and it's service cap, threaded by the throttle cable and slider return spring. It restricts throttle slider upward excursion, and hence throttle opening. Expect to have to cut a number of lengths of tubing, and to have to finely adjust the throttle restriction a number of times to maintain PAPC compliance as the engine further wears-in. Start with 13mm lengths and file them down. I think my last one measured 11.9mm, but every motor will be different. A less fiddly approach might be to replace the standard twist-grip throttle with one of the ATV thumb throttles. They make ones that have an easily screw-adjusted maximum opening, intended to make operation safer for youngsters.



As well as constraining throttle opening, I found it necessary to adjust the engine mixture to prevent '4-stroking', a condition where limited oxidant results in the engine only firing every 2nd revolution. I dropped the adjustable mixture needle to it's lowest extent, leaning-out the mixture as much as possible, but this alone wasn't sufficient. In addition I soldered-up the carburettor injector jet, and re-drilled it with a PCB drill from Jaycar. Correct mixture for me was at either 0.5mm or 0.6mm, I forget, but for everyone it will be different, and must be determined by experimentation. Don't worry about going too lean, as I'm assured that a 'Happy Times' engine will be very hard to start if you go that far. You'll probably want to tackle mixture first, as altering it will change the power output, and necessitate further throttle constriction trimming.

After I was as sure as I could be that my PAPC bike was legal, by attaining a pre-calculated maximum speed on level ground with no wind, I then made-up some engine compliance decals - I'm an engineer and can do that, but others should seek someone who, if the stuff starts flying, will be able to provide an expert's opinion in court. "Complies with Western Australian Power Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations. 48cc 195W Max." is what mine reads.

Amongst other things that you can do to help any curious law enforcement official establish compliance, is to show them your cycle computer's average speed reading. Reset it for each ride, and an average speed below 25kh/h should be a strong indication that you're doing the right thing, at least in terms of maximum allowable power. Also, you won't need any tools to do so, and can unscrew the throttle slide access port and show anyone interested that you have a power-limiting throttle constrictor fitted.

Okay, 2000km down the road everything works fine. I only ride late at night as I can't deal with everyone staring at me during the day. The Police seem to be well informed and haven't raised an eyebrow, even when I have pulled up right next to them at intersections. The public, on the other hand, are totally misinformed by eastern states media reporting the menace of the 'gas bike', and I've actually had some prick tailing me very, very closely, shouting and blowing his horn. I ride very late at night indeed now.



Overall, it's been a good experience, and I'm working on my 2nd bike, a Honda GX35 powered 4-stroke, that promises to be more economical, quieter, and less of an oily mess than was my first excursion into the PAPC realm.

T.

ps. Please, please, please observe all the PAPC and cycling regs, and don't do anything to cause a community backlash. This legislation and the light, low compression 4-cycle powered bicycle can go a long way as a fuel extender and emission minimiser, but not if some innocent pedestrian or their dog gets creamed early on.

[cj7hawk]

My experience: Affordably tuning a 48cc Happy Times for PAPC compliance.

Hi Tressie,

Thanks for that - Some great information included there - I do tend to ride more at night also. But I've also started work on a Petrol/Electric system which has some great benefits over either an electric or a petrol system.

Still, I think it's critical we maintain the freedom to use petrol engines on our bikes - The original legislation in 1991 was intended entirely for petrol bikes, and I don't think most people realize the electrics are a recent thing.

Regards
David

[bradkazz]

Hi All

Just doing a little research and have a hypothetical question. If you put a truck motor in a car without approval does it make it a truck? My understanding is that it's illegally modified and probably overpowered vehicle, yet it remains a 'car'. Therefore, if you install on oversized engine on a standard bicycle, should it not be deemed an illegally modified bicycle, with penalties similar to riding without a helmet, no bell, reflectors, etc? The legislation sets a power limit but there does not appear to be penalties for modified 'bicycles'. Although a modified bicycle could have an engine that is potentially dangerous, it seems to be a stretch to apply unlicensed motorcycle penalties over a few hundred watts (intent of WA law makers). For reference I'm looking to change the law i.e. formally/legally. I weigh 115kg (6'5' and mostly muscle) and a 200w motor is almost pointless with my weight and wind resistance! Unofficially 500W seems to carry me at a reasonable pace without exceeding the bicycle speed limit but I don't want to be charged with riding an unlicensed motorcycle just because I'm a little fat! Given rider weight/size has such a dramatic effect on performance, It would seem more reasonable to limit speed and rate of acceleration. Any comments would be appreciated and sorry if this has already been considered.

Regards
Brad

[ColinOldnCranky]

Brad - there is no need for penalties specific to modifying a powered bike with an oversize motor.

You have alluded to a status of motor vehicle.

Once it is so modified it will be, as per definitions in the relevant legislation, a motor vehicle. An UNREGISTERED motor vehicle. THAT is where you will find the penalties, including fines, demerit points, confiscation of vehicle and suspension of drivers licence. Quite significant penalties.

If Parliament has not indicated the penalties in the sections to do with over-powered engines then the parliament clearly has decided that those penalties are sufficient.

You may think that such penalties are excessive. On the other hand I have little desire to see e-bikes and the like on the paths shared by toddlers, dog walkers, walkers, joggers, cyclists, pram pushers (or unicyclists ) passing by me at ever increasing speeds and masses.

Power/Speed is a continuum and whatever power you choose to put the limit at, someone else can just as easily justify moving their power/speed further along the continuum.

For the record I do not use a powered bike. But I am the person on this forum to ask for the section dedicated to e-bikes and the like. Why did I? Because I see them as a legitimate and socially useful option approriate to sharing paths and roads with other users.

But I also see that they should be something that does not deviate far from other users of the shared facilities currently and safely mingle with. Nor do I favour on the roads a cheap motorbike that does not pass the specs essential for a motorbike and does not require any level of license for the user. Motorbikes of all powers fill that slot well enough.

[fixed]

I find the relative lack of exhaust gases on bike paths to be one of the attractive features.
If moped users breathed in the exhaust the engine produces then I would be satisfied with that.
Maybe.

[bradkazz]

Thanks for the replies.

The purpose of the road traffic act is to make roads and footpaths safe for all users. In this capacity, I'm absolutely certain that a 500w PAPC is safe if ridden at a safe speed. This is similar to the way my 140KW ZX14 is just as safe as a scooter when traveling within the speed limit or even safer given the brakes are huge and it's very stable i.e. it's the speed, not the power! In addition, a power limit seems discriminatory given a 16 year old feather weight can enjoy 200w, while it barley moves me. Lastly, it's nearly impossible to police a power rating because all 'fast' PAPCs must be impounded and measured. Are the available dynamometers even calibrated? For reference, I use one for cars; it has not been calibrated since new and the readings vary dramatically with tyre pressure, vehicle position, temperature and gearing.

For a short period I can ride my non-powered mountain bike at 35km per hour, which seems reasonably safe on the road and a dual lane path but relatively risky near pedestrians on a single lane path. Therefore, as a cycling community it would seem more reasonable to propose a speed limit for roads and different types of paths. Perhaps a maximum rate of acceleration, total bicycle weight, etc to avoid silliness like twin 2KW hub motors (although somewhat awesome). Wouldn't this make policing relatively straight forward through use of existing calibrated speed radars and end the confusion?

[Thoglette]

What confusion?
There’s the rules for assisted bicycles; the rules for scooters; and the rules for motorcycles.
Whether you power them by petrol; electricity or coal them’s the rules.
If you want a faster on-road e-bicycle you’re probably looking at scooter ADRs and rego (which were once known as mopeds, which grew out of the original PAPCs, just to close the loop)

You’re also falling for the doctrine of “false equivalence” - the reason we don’t have speed limits on bike paths is because, on the whole, it’s Mv drivers that kill people.

[bradkazz]

I agree in general. However, rules must serve the interest of the public and I can't see a reason to limit PAPC to 200W. If bicycles don't generally harm anyone, what purpose does a 200W limit serve?

Please refer to my first post whereby I'm planning to write a submission that will change the law (rules). i.e. Speed limit rather than power limit or any other workable measure (one that we can easily test e.g. with a GPS). Perhaps 35km/h?

My point is that rules that are virtually impossible police sensibly and do not appear to serve a purpose should be corrected. As such, I searched the internet for a sensible conversation. This group has already put a lot of work into the matter, therefore, I wanted to tap into the existing knowledge capital.

Regards
Brad

[RoFlmaTiC]

Going by your logic, I should be able to ride a dirt bike on the PSP at 35kph? What about a 250cc motorcycle?

How many bikes do you know that come with a speedo?

The line has been drawn and there is no need to change the law to suit a handful of people. If you don't like your speed, get fitter.

[bradkazz]

My logic is that the current laws result in a reasonably useful electric PAPC, due to the low end torque characteristics of an electric motor and an almost pointless petrol engine due to characteristic minimal low end torque.

For reference, I'm actually reasonable fit, as I ride my non-powered mountain bike at least 15km per day for exercise, but this is not about my fitness. I previously rode my ZX14 Kawasaki Ninga to work. Unfortunately, I was hit by a car who 'did not see me' and I ended up unconscious with two broken legs. Since the accident I have a permanent 18% disability due to unrepairable ankle and knee damage and commuting distances causes excessive pain. I don't enjoy being boxed in a car and my work is too far away for me to ride an unpowered bicycle everyday. I would still like to commute of a bike, while being a little safer on WAs excellent cycle paths.

I've built a petrol PAPC using an eBay motor and when de-tuned to 200w it's, in my opinion, pointless. I've also got an electric PAPC but range and battery longevity for commuting presents an issue, noting that I could spend $1000+ on a better battery. A 250W electric motor does the job, a 500W motor is nice to ride and a 1500W motor is enjoyable.

A bike speedo costs around $15 on eBay and I can calibrate this with the GPS on my phone. Therefore, speed limiting is my suggestion. With regards to the comment about riding a motorcycle below 35km/h on a footpath; this is managed by the name PAPC, i.e. a motorcycle is not a pedal cycle and we could further define 'PAPC' to ensure it's not misinterpreted. It would be appreciated if members could provide suggestions about what they think are acceptable and end user measurable parameters, rather than a dyno figure. In addition to speed, I've also considered a sound limit in dBs. We could consider pollution levels but this has the associated measurement issue.

[find_bruce]

Good luck bradkazz. There is little love for petrol powered bicycles, nor for powered bicycles travelling significantly faster than the average cyclist.

More fundamentally you are trying to invent a new standard, with no evidence of manufacturer support or acceptance anywhere else - it was a significant breakthrough to get the various states to accept the european pedelec standard.

[Thoglette]

I agree in general. However, rules must serve the interest of the public and I can't see a reason to limit PAPC to 200W. If bicycles don't generally harm anyone, what purpose does a 200W limit serve?

Mostly it keeps the pedecs as slow (both top speed and off the mark) as the average (fit) punter on a bike. Of course 200W and a TT bike might get you to your 35kph.

But remember that 35kph is well above recognised best practice for a shared space, which is why 250W PAPCs are limited to 25kph and why urban cyclists rarely kill anyone.

My point is that rules that are virtually impossible police sensibly and do not appear to serve a purpose should be corrected. As such, I searched the internet for a sensible conversation. This group has already put a lot of work into the matter, therefore, I wanted to tap into the existing knowledge capital.

As noted above, they do serve a purpose.

You might do well to investigate the Dutch rules: scooters seem* to be able to use dedicated bike paths and bike lanes. Not that we've got many of them here (there's a 100m stretch in Subiaco) but there's a looming problem as the MRD keeps building freeways and shared paths that scooters (e- or petrol) can't use.

*I've just spent a few weeks in The Hague and there were lots of scooters in the dedicated lanes and no interest from the Politie. No idea whether it's actually legal.
Didn't see a single bike helmet and they weren't universal for scooter riders either. Saw a few funky micro cars and trikes that we don't have here either. BTW - many of their inner urban roads were posted as 30kph. And I did see one sign that translated to "when the shops are open, walk your bike".

[bradkazz]

Hi All

Not too concerned about a precedence or the difficulty at this stage. I'm interested in knowing how the cycling community would like PAPCs to be designed and policed in an ideal world. This will serve as a basis for me to prepare a new standard and submission for amendment of the law. I did the same for the Australian drag racing community whereby road cars are unable to use fixed roll cages and high speed drag cars previously required a fixed role cage. This meant that people were unable to compete with a fast road car. I prepared a proposal that was subsequently approved, to allow for removable roll cages in drag racing. Several of our race cars can now be locked in valet mode for the road and will not exceed factory specifications. When unlocked the fastest, with 1300hp, is capable of an 8.3 second quarter mile. The new removable roll cage rules make the car safe on the road and the track. As a 196cm, 115kg rider with a full motorcycle license, a 500w or higher PAPC is, in my opinion, not unsafe. Therefore, the current law requires amendment.

For reference, I'm a Licensed Mechanic who builds and tunes drag cars (hobby), Clinical Engineer (Day job after studying Electronics Engineering, which includes procurement and management of medical equipment) and I've almost completed my MBA. In this capacity, I'm not suggesting that regulation is pointless, as it makes PAPCs and all other vehicles safe. I'm suggesting that a power limit is not the answer. More specifically, rules that requires the police to confiscate your PAPC based on an opinion i.e. 'it seems too powerful', then have it measured and then prosecute or return the PAPC with an apology, is what I'm questioning. A speed limit of 25km/h and no power limit is the easiest answer but this does not make a great deal of sense when I and many others can ride faster without assistance. In my younger years, I could easily cruise at 30km/h for 50+km. I would like to be able to do the same now without the risk of being charged with riding an unlicensed motorcycle.

My preference is a key locked 500W and 35km/h road/path limit, with the lock not being accessible while riding. And no penalty for up to 5kw, provided that it's only 'unlocked' when used as an off road mountain or race bicycle. Noise limit at 75db. Comments on these numbers as a starting point?


Regards
Brad

[find_bruce]

I understand what you want to achieve, I just don't agree with it. Just in case I wasn't clear enough above, there is nothing that I like about 500W - 5 kW vehicles traveling at up to 35km/h on shared paths or bicycle paths. You may think this is safe, others, including myself disagree.

What you are really proposing already exists - its a moped, you just want to pretend its a bicycle.

In most parts of Australia the law has changed in the last few years so that a bicycle with a petrol engine is not a power-assisted pedal cycle & I am not seeing any desire from cyclists to change that

[Thoglette]

In most parts of Australia the law has changed in the last few years so that a bicycle with a petrol engine is not a power-assisted pedal cycle & I am not seeing any desire from cyclists to change that

Or in other parts of the community: the typical "leaf blower" type 2-stroke motor is on the nose for more than just its noise and smell: the emissions are worse than a large modern car (e.g. this in the WP 2013 or this one WSJ 2017 ) . Expect to see less and less 2 strokes across the board (vale RZ500 and RG500!)

Now at least a PAPC does something useful....

[bradkazz]

The option to disagree is what makes democracy the ideal solution. However, I'm unsure what the disagreement is; the speed, the power or if it's just some love for the current law? For clarity I'm looking for answers and comments on the following questions:

Q1,Do forum members agree with removal of the 200/250Wpower limit, while retaining the current euro standard speed limit?

Q2, Would it be reasonable for PAPCs to be limited to a higher speed? 30 or 35km/h for example.

Q3, Would it be reasonable for the same bike to be speed limited while on a road or path and unlimited by a key when off-road?

Q5; Should PAPCs be sound limited to the same level as passenger vehicles?

Emerging Q5, Should internal combustion engine PAPCs be outlawed all together and we consider electric only?

For reference, I'm not aware of any sensible reason to limit PAPCs to 250W. All of my bikes have been engineered with components that would allow a skilled down hill rider to jump over a house and the Scitech power meter suggests I can already accelerate with more than 500W of human power... On the other hand a sensible speed limit is critical because humans are not designed for rapid acceleration in either direction (An Iron Man suit is not workable because in the real world, Tony Stark's organs would burst like a water balloon during the first impact).


Regards
Brad

[Thoglette]

For reference, I'm not aware of any sensible reason to limit PAPCs to 250W.

Well, we already have issues with older men on ebikes killing themselves.

Again, "e-bikes" need to mostly behave like normal (utility, not sports) bikes. The IEC standard is (by definition) imperfect but it's pretty close to the mark.

You are in the most unenviable position of trying to create a substantial change to the status quo to serve a vanishingly small cohort: skilled riders with "more capable" machines who wish to ride them lawfully.

Particularly considering there is a much larger cohort of unskilled scofflaws riding illegal bikes unlawfully. (Anecdotally, you're the first of the former cohort I can recall but we've visits from several of the other, mostly people who've already lost their licence. And I'm not the only regular who regularly see clueless behaviour by high-speed e-thing riders on shared paths & footpaths). But, for e-scooters to work, you need dedicated cyclist/scooter infrastructure (accompanied by pedestrian infrastructure).

Again, I believe that e-scooters are poorly served by the current regulations (almost as many hoops as a e-motorcycle) and almost completely ignored by infrastructure designers/builders and regulators. Small e-cars (think golf cart) even more so.

That (the e-scooter) is a much more viable approach politically : there's big companies with product they want to sell, it's "green" compared to the alternatives (scooters, cars) and it actually aligns with the general academic and social movement towards livable, human scale cities.

Politically, petrol powered machines are dead. You'd have more luck with something running on coal or a coal byproduct (hydrogen powered scooter anyone?) - Tony and ScoMo'd love you.

[wexford]

I don't want to see *anything* petrol powered on the shared paths. It's bad enough having people on 2 strokes hurtling past dangerously without having to breathe their fumes as well. Nope, nope, nope.

Electric or electric pedal assist - they have a place and I don't care about the power, but they definitely need to be speed limited. I've been doing 50+ on the Mounts Bay Road path (not around other users - I'm not that silly) and some guy in a suit passed me without pedalling and nearly wound up in the drink on the next corner. When you only have to turn a throttle or press a button you're much less aware of your speed and your bike's limits. Bike handling is all about managing inputs and feedback, and people will just go to sleep at the handlebars.