Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Experts

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Thoglette
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Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Experts

Postby Thoglette » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:36 pm

A short report on the Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Experts

I was fortunate enough to be a part of the "Imagineering Cycling" workshop yesterday. Which was "day two" of govt/industry focussed discussions.

About 120 people including councillers, council staff, DoT, DoP & MRWA staff, road engineers, industry people and cycling advocates attended.

The Dutch contingent had presented the previous evening and, through their Consul General, re-iterated some key points of "the Dutch experience". Including that they were there to help us avoiding making the same mistakes that they had made.

They are quite proactive in exporting their experience and were thus able to compare our situation not only with Holland, but also other cities they had assisted.

The Transport Minister spoke and appeared very supportive of the whole concept and indicating that the previous evening's high level discussions (between the Dutch, himself, various directors-general and supporting cast) had been very worthwhile.

We were then split into groups of about 6-8 to address a series of particular cycling infrastructure problems. Three "sessions" were used - most tables worked through three different problems (local road; distributor and destination) but some tables got "big" problems to work on all day.
Most appeared to be duplicated - so two sets of solutions were achieved for most staff.

At the end of each session key solution points were discussed - the benefit of the "two group "approach became obvious: while there was (inevitably) quite some commonality, there were often key differences.

The DoT staff now have the fun job of writing this all up and attempting to wrangle the responsible bits of govt into assessing and (hopefully) implementing some of the solutions.

The best bit for me (other than learning more from the four Dutchmen) was seeing the barriers come down between various parts of govt once they all were sitting around the table in an environment where they could freely exchange ideas.

While this all seems bloody obvious, it is quite an innovative step and the Department of Transport (particularly Mr Wooldridge) deserves praise for organising it. As does the RAC for helping fund it.

On that the RAC representative present noted the very strong response to their on-line cycling survey. She also underlined their recent policy positioning themselves as promoters of mobility including public transport, walking and cycling. (I see that they made a media relaease last friday stating that The path forward for cycling depends on action now )

The BTA, CWA and 'Five' were some of the cycling advocacy groups present - I heard a number of Govt people saying that the advocates had been very helpful eg. in getting people to discuss more deeply and broadly than normal.

As a commuting cyclist, the big difference that I noticed between the Dutch and the local experience is the speed - there 18kph is considered "fast" and 10km is "long", which is reflected in the attire and equipment used - one of the Dutchmen also had his racing and off-road (calling it an MTB got some giggles) bikes for weekend recreation - which would be used with suitable PPE. I'm going to reflect on that for a while.
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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby flashpixx » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:09 pm

interested to see the results of the RACWA cycling survey. I'm not aware of their position on "A Metre Matters". Given no reps from WAPOL I'm guessing the discussion focused entirely on infrastructure.
Gordon

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby rolandp » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:23 am

Toilette, thanks for attending. Do you feel there will be a clear actions and individuals/groups who will ensure that they are achieved?

I attended the cycling safety forums back in 2012 which had actions, but limited visibility after how those actions progressed.

Don't want history to be repeated.

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby Thoglette » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:57 am

rolandp wrote: Do you feel there will be a clear actions and individuals/groups who will ensure that they are achieved?
Beyond publishing within DoT, that wasn't clear - however each of the few Councillors I spoke to went away with at least one idea which caused their eyes to light up - I hope that they will be the drivers of change at the local level.

And many of traffic engineers now have a much broader design vocabulary
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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby Sinner » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:12 pm

Some of the examples were interesting and useful and generated some innovation (in vehicle detection of cyclists ahead etc). Some thought that examples such as Armadale Road were not that useful. West Coast Drive was interesting but the question that wasn't asked and answered is "is there a real problem". All sorts of traffic engineering solutions were examined, but from my experience issues arise when high speed cyclists use the shared path and slow cyclists use the road.

The whole session was useful for a number of reasons. It got people with differing views of cycling together having constructive discussions and it also highlighted what can work.

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby Timeonabike » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:58 pm

Sounds good, looking forward to reading more about it.

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby CycleSnail » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:47 pm

rolandp wrote:Toilette, thanks for attending. Do you feel there will be a clear actions and individuals/groups who will ensure that they are achieved?

I attended the cycling safety forums back in 2012 which had actions, but limited visibility after how those actions progressed.

Don't want history to be repeated.
Thanks, Thoglette, for writing this up (Roland, watch out for Android auto-correct :) ).

I agree that it was a useful session. Having tagged along with the Dutch experts for three days (I was included in the "supporting cast") I think these type of initiatives are not only about the direct actions, but also about the changing of minds. Quite a few of Minister Nalders comments related directly to discussions that occurred at the dinner the previous evening.

However Craig Wooldridge committed to having the workshop documented within eight weeks.
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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby Thoglette » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:44 pm

CycleSnail wrote:However Craig Wooldridge committed to having the workshop documented within eight weeks.
Almost. The report is here
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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby cj7hawk » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:54 pm

Kind of disappointed that the focus is entirely on inner-city living and surrounding suburbs, especially when there's zero infrastructure, zero bike roads ( bicycles banned on all connecting roads ) and it's impossible to ride south of midland to connecting infrastructure without diverting through Perth... Maybe they think the extra 20km isn't that much of an impediment to commuting riders...

Roe Highway from Tonkin to Midland is an absolute disaster - It's impossible to ride through that area ( and illegal ) on a bicycle.

I guess all of these reports are positive, and I don't want to rubbish it outright, but the focus really is mainly constrained to around 10km from the CBD...

David.

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby CycleSnail » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:55 pm

cj7hawk wrote:Kind of disappointed that the focus is entirely on inner-city living and surrounding suburbs, especially when there's zero infrastructure, zero bike roads ( bicycles banned on all connecting roads ) and it's impossible to ride south of midland to connecting infrastructure without diverting through Perth... Maybe they think the extra 20km isn't that much of an impediment to commuting riders...

Roe Highway from Tonkin to Midland is an absolute disaster - It's impossible to ride through that area ( and illegal ) on a bicycle.

I guess all of these reports are positive, and I don't want to rubbish it outright, but the focus really is mainly constrained to around 10km from the CBD...

David.

The overall thinking would be:
- work on suburbs within 10 km from the CBD and substantially increase opportunities for safe cycling to schools, train stations, shops and places of employment. Do this with a mix of infrastructure investment and re-assigning of existing road space, lower speeds on selected roads (30 kmh) and Bicycle Boulevard pilot projects
- people who are getting used to short safe trips can be shown how to get to the CBD. 10 km is an easy ride, so conversion to cycling is not a big ask.
- Introduce measures that make cycling more attractive and driving a car less attractive. Again this yields more closer to the CBD, as this is where congestion is the bigger problem.
- Enlarge the focal area to 15km from the CBD and repeat the above.

Work continues on getting the PSP's to Midland, Armadale, Fremantle and Joondalup connected or improved. The (misguided) Gateway project includes some 22 km of cycling infrastructure. This should encourage adjacent councils to make connections to it, and to some extent that will create cycling possibilities south of Midland.
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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby rolandp » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:41 pm

Thoglette wrote:
CycleSnail wrote:However Craig Wooldridge committed to having the workshop documented within eight weeks.
Almost. The report is here
It was released in June.

The challenge is, how to get these ideas implemented. For example the report indicates West Coast Dr from Karrinyup to Hepburn Ave with several suggestions for improvement. Shame that the City of Joondalup has just ripped up the medium strips and re- tarmac their section, with no benefits to cyclists that I can see. I would be very surprised the City of Joondalup will redo this section again for another 10-15 years.

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:05 am

CycleSnail wrote:
cj7hawk wrote:Kind of disappointed that the focus is entirely on inner-city living and surrounding suburbs, especially when there's zero infrastructure, zero bike roads ( bicycles banned on all connecting roads ) and it's impossible to ride south of midland to connecting infrastructure without diverting through Perth... Maybe they think the extra 20km isn't that much of an impediment to commuting riders...

Roe Highway from Tonkin to Midland is an absolute disaster - It's impossible to ride through that area ( and illegal ) on a bicycle.

I guess all of these reports are positive, and I don't want to rubbish it outright, but the focus really is mainly constrained to around 10km from the CBD...

David.

The overall thinking would be:
- work on suburbs within 10 km from the CBD and substantially increase opportunities for safe cycling to schools, train stations, shops and places of employment. Do this with a mix of infrastructure investment and re-assigning of existing road space, lower speeds on selected roads (30 kmh) and Bicycle Boulevard pilot projects
- people who are getting used to short safe trips can be shown how to get to the CBD. 10 km is an easy ride, so conversion to cycling is not a big ask.
- Introduce measures that make cycling more attractive and driving a car less attractive. Again this yields more closer to the CBD, as this is where congestion is the bigger problem.
- Enlarge the focal area to 15km from the CBD and repeat the above.

Work continues on getting the PSP's to Midland, Armadale, Fremantle and Joondalup connected or improved. The (misguided) Gateway project includes some 22 km of cycling infrastructure. This should encourage adjacent councils to make connections to it, and to some extent that will create cycling possibilities south of Midland.
I'm still a little disappointed in how it's progressed, especially as the inclusion of paths doesn't seem to have occurred with the upgrading of the roads - would have been a perfect time to connect it all.

I didn't know all the details of that gateway project - thanks for the heads up -

Before: http://gatewaywa.com.au/assets/Cycle-Ma ... b-2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After: http://gatewaywa.com.au/assets/Cycle-Ma ... l-2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still falls far short of anything substantial to even addressing parts of that issue. As was mentioned, when major works occur, and they don't include the infrastructure from the get-go, it really does leave a toxic shadow over the area for a while - It's as though they feel it would be embarrassing to have to do work on the area straight away to fix what was missing.

Not that I'm complaining about what does exist within the 10km range - I absolutely love the bike path once I get to Bassendean. I'll even go as far as saying I'm happy with the combined path-road segments from the Guildford Rd Bridge all the way up to Perth... I'm always happier once I see that.

I have no idea how bikes will cross the road at Stirling st / Meadow st intersection under the Perth-Midland upgrades this year... I can't see how that can be made safe short of a crosswalk or crossing lights. Cars seem to avoid respecting clearways too.

I've only just started commuting regularly from just past Midland into Perth, but Midland is downright scary as you move through the town, and it's not great up to Guildford either.

Ahh, well, my whinging won't fix anything - I do hope you're right that the gateway project will spur the takeup of paths along the full length of Roe Hwy.... Even if I did have to dodge debris, it wasn't too bad riding along it past the prison and through to Midland.

David.



http://gatewaywa.com.au/assets/Cycle-Ma ... b-2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby rustguard » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:08 pm

Thoglette wrote:Almost. The report is here
most arterial roads are generally travelled by males and even then, mostly dedicated cyclists (such
as competitive cyclists and MAMLS)
Is this meant to be MAMIL? I this now an official term?

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby Sinner » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:52 am

rolandp wrote:[The challenge is, how to get these ideas implemented. For example the report indicates West Coast Dr from Karrinyup to Hepburn Ave with several suggestions for improvement. Shame that the City of Joondalup has just ripped up the medium strips and re- tarmac their section, with no benefits to cyclists that I can see. I would be very surprised the City of Joondalup will redo this section again for another 10-15 years.
What Joondalup appear to have done is to provide more lane width which gives more space to share between vehicles and cycles. The loss of some of the median also appears to provide more overtaking opportunities for vehicles to overtake cyclists going at less than the 50 kph speed limit. I would have thought for those cyclists who choose to be on the road rather than on the adjacent shared path, the works that Joondalup have done have made it safer for cyclists.

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby rolandp » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:58 pm

Sinner wrote:
rolandp wrote:[The challenge is, how to get these ideas implemented. For example the report indicates West Coast Dr from Karrinyup to Hepburn Ave with several suggestions for improvement. Shame that the City of Joondalup has just ripped up the medium strips and re- tarmac their section, with no benefits to cyclists that I can see. I would be very surprised the City of Joondalup will redo this section again for another 10-15 years.
What Joondalup appear to have done is to provide more lane width which gives more space to share between vehicles and cycles. The loss of some of the median also appears to provide more overtaking opportunities for vehicles to overtake cyclists going at less than the 50 kph speed limit. I would have thought for those cyclists who choose to be on the road rather than on the adjacent shared path, the works that Joondalup have done have made it safer for cyclists.
As a daily road user of West Coast Dr, I still get overtaken where I can touch the overtaking car (and I'm not talking full arm stretched out). I've observed a group of 4 cyclists riding single file yelled at by a passenger of overtaking car, so much so that the group moved onto the shared path. Sure these things could happen anywhere, but what I've seen with this 'road improvement' is more medium strips which makes it more difficult for vehicles to overtake cyclists.

Are you sure the lanes are wider, and if so, by how much?

And either way, it is not what is indicated in the report which include bi-directional bike path, speeds reduced to 40kph etc. OK, the report is a list of suggestions, so we can keep dreaming until there is real substance behind it with directions/funding.

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Re: Bikeweek: Imagineering Cycling Workshop with Dutch Exper

Postby rustguard » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:35 am

rolandp wrote: Sure these things could happen anywhere, but what I've seen with this 'road improvement' is more medium strips which makes it more difficult for vehicles to overtake cyclists.

Are you sure the lanes are wider, and if so, by how much?

And either way, it is not what is indicated in the report which include bi-directional bike path, speeds reduced to 40kph etc. OK, the report is a list of suggestions, so we can keep dreaming until there is real substance behind it with directions/funding.
yes for years now councils all over perth have been doing this. The saddest part is most of these medium strips are wide enough to make a dedicated bike lane? I am going to dream that someone in government and road planning actually listened.

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