Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol is OK
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Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol is OK
Postby cj7hawk » Fri May 08, 2015 12:10 am
Just a quick comment after some discussions with DoT in WA, around the new Pedelec laws - The 250w absolute limit on APACs ( Pedelecs ) is imposed under the new laws without reference to the standard, and most Pedelec's clearly exceed 250w under some circumstances. ( It's actually a part of the standard that they do exceed 250w at times )
Just a though then that while that might technically make all Pedelecs illegal in WA, they'll probably take a lenient perspective on it as long as no one can demonstrate too much power, or give the police reason to question whether a Pedelec. However if a Pedelec is tested and it does breach 250w ( which they all will ! ) then there might be some trouble and difficulties in interpreting the law - in any event, it's not clear cut.
On the positive side, advice from the DoT confirms that my new Petrol-based Pedelec design is OK on WA roads and paths, and can run up to 250w - which is something I've been wanting to confirm for a while... At least assuming that they solve the 250w absolute maximum problem in the current legislation.
In all likelihood, I think they'll just use creative interpretation of the laws... At least I hope they do... Making them all illegal or of questionable legality would be a serious issue that would result in the need to install current limiters on all Pedelecs to achieve local compliance.
Regards
David.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby rolandp » Fri May 08, 2015 8:24 am
I have no issue with electric ones, but I do for any petrol one, be it a bike, skateboard, scooter or motorbike on the shared paths - for the noise and exhaust. I have seen petrol types I have listed on the shared paths in Perth.
In relation to the change in regulations, I would be very surprised that the majority of the law enforces would even know the difference between a e-bike or a Pedelec . My personal preference is for only Pedelec to be available and used on shared paths. If you aren't turning those pedals, then there is no health benefit occurring, same as other motorised vehicles.
Thanks for following up on the regs, looks like the attempt to clarify and simplify hasn't worked.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby Red Rider » Fri May 08, 2015 9:10 am
Chopped and planted from the DoT website:
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/activetr ... /25169.aspPower-Assisted Pedal Cycle (PAPC)
A power-assisted bicycle (or power-assisted pedal cycle [PAPC]) is a pedal cycle with auxiliary motor(s) attached to provide assistance to the rider in propelling the vehicle. PAPCs can make cycling a more enjoyable and feasible option for many people, including those who need to make longer journeys, who live in hilly areas or who may not be able to easily pedal a non-powered bicycle, such as seniors or those with disabilities.
In Western Australia, there are two categories of PAPCs:To be compliant, a pedelec must:
- Those with a maximum power output of 200 watts, and;
Pedelecs, which are a form of electric bicycle that complies with the European Standard EN 15194.To be compliant, the pedals on a PAPC must be the main source of propulsion and, therefore, a PAPC does not include electric bicycles without pedals or powered mobility devices. A PAPC which uses the engine as a primary source of power and/or has an engine capacity which exceeds 200 watts is classified as a motorcycle and the vehicle and rider must be licensed if used on the road. These vehicles are prohibited on shared paths.
- Have a maximum continuous power output of the motor which does not exceed 250 watts.
Have an electric motor.
Require the rider to pedal to access the power.
Have the power cut out when the pedelec reaches 25 km/h, or sooner if the rider stops pedalling.
Be certified by the manufacturer and labelled as complying with EN 15194, i.e. the label must include the manufacturers name, the motor's cut-off speed in km/h and the electric motor's maximum continuous rated power output in watts.
In 2012, the federal Department of Infrastructure and Transport amended the definition of PAPCs in the Australian Design Rules to allow for the importation of pedelecs. The Western Australia Government is in the process of amending legislation to accommodate pedelecs. The legislation is estimated to be completed by April 2015. Until that time only PAPCs with a maximum power output of 200 watts can legally be ridden on shared paths.
Those who ride PAPCs are bound by the same rules and responsibilities as for other bicycle riders. The only difference is that PAPCs cannot be ridden by people younger than 16 years of age with the motor engaged (Regulation 228 of the Road Traffic Code 2000). Riders of compliant PAPCs do not require registration or a license and can ride on all roads and paths, except where bicycles are explicitly excluded.
For the rules and regulations related to bicycles, please see the Cycling rules brochure or the Office of Road Safety.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby cj7hawk » Fri May 08, 2015 9:50 am
Hi Roland,rolandp wrote:Doesn't Pedelecs is shortened for pedal-electric? If so, shouldn't a new name be developed for petrol driven ones?
I have no issue with electric ones, but I do for any petrol one, be it a bike, skateboard, scooter or motorbike on the shared paths - for the noise and exhaust. I have seen petrol types I have listed on the shared paths in Perth.
In relation to the change in regulations, I would be very surprised that the majority of the law enforces would even know the difference between a e-bike or a Pedelec . My personal preference is for only Pedelec to be available and used on shared paths. If you aren't turning those pedals, then there is no health benefit occurring, same as other motorised vehicles.
Thanks for following up on the regs, looks like the attempt to clarify and simplify hasn't worked.
My new system is just a charger that attaches to a Pedelec, so it's still a Pedelec in every sense of the term and still conforms to all the standards of a pedal-electric bicycle since it's still driven by the pedals and by the electric motor - It's just that it gets extended range so that it can be used without battery-charge limitations. It's also very clean and quiet so isn't really any different to riding with normal vehicle traffic around.
Anyway, yes, it was while ensuring that my own bicycles were legal under the new standards that I found the issue and DoT confirmed it - It's pretty minor in the scheme of things since police will begin with assuming a bicycle is compliant unless observed doing otherwise, but it does leave people who ride on compliant EN15194's open to possible prosecution if they bike has any significant power over 250w and if the police have a reason to go after them - All it will take is a dyno chart showing it exceeded 250w ( which it will ) and then they can prosecute as the requirement is in addition to the standard. Not a great situation for any of us, and one I want to work towards solving so at least there's a policy on what the 250w requirement means that's recorded in case any of us end up in that situation.
A normal EN15194 EPAC ( Electronically power assisted cycle ) will typically put out around 300w, but some designed for hills can easily hit much higher figures while remaining within the european standard, so it is of some concern.
probably the biggest risk is prosecution post-accident. Some pedelecs have two rather nasty characteristics that make them unsuited to use on paths - The first is that a small movement of the crank will result in full-power output and acceleration - so if you're moving slowly up behind someone on a path and you're slowing or just following them, there's a very real danger of collision with a pedestrian, and at powers well over 250w.
The second danger is the braking system - Pedelecs can take up to 5m to cut power to the motor in the event that you hit the brakes - Again, if it's putting out around 500w because of the sudden increase in drag from the brakes, you've got very little chance of stopping in an emergency on a bike path, and that's at fairly low speeds - As such, it's going to take around 5m typical distance to stop as you're fighting the motor the whole way and further if you're still pedaling at all. Again, not good for safety.
For these reasons, Pedelecs are not quite as suited to use on paths as the older 200w PAPCs and riders should be cautious due to their unusual handling requirements. They are still fine to ride on paths, but as with most things, need to be ridden within the limitations of the design.
I don't mind not being forced to pedal so much - it's great and if you want to make more people like riding, making pedaling optional is the way to do it - I have probably the most advanced electric design concept in Australia at the moment, and I still find myself pedaling. It's actually very hard to ride a bicycle and not pedal - and depending on the day, riders will vary their input. On hot days, not so much pedaling, but on cold days, they'll pedal like crazy and get where they're going a lot faster, so any bicycle forces you to do work -
Regards
David
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue May 12, 2015 9:25 pm
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby cj7hawk » Wed May 13, 2015 5:06 pm
Sort of...ColinOldnCranky wrote:I gather then that WA has at last moved it's max up from 200W. Is that right?
a) Yes it did, but only for Pedelecs. 250w max. ( Not Max Continuous, just maximum ).
b) No it didn't, because it went and put another clause in there that eliminates most Pedelecs... ( A 250w Pedelec has more than 250w maximum power )
This is what happens when the laws aren't well thought out.
I'm trying to get to the bottom of this at the moment, so I can start to build a Pedelec.
Regards
David
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby Cycleops70 » Fri May 22, 2015 3:44 pm
A bike with an a motor which can be engaged independently of the pedals (a throttle) is restricted to 200W max output. No speed limit.
A bike which requires the pedalling motion to engage the motor is limited to 250W & the motor must cut out at 25Kph.
Apologies if I going over old ground.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby cj7hawk » Fri May 22, 2015 8:52 pm
Nothing to apologise for -Cycleops70 wrote:My understanding as simply as I can put it;
A bike with an a motor which can be engaged independently of the pedals (a throttle) is restricted to 200W max output. No speed limit.
A bike which requires the pedalling motion to engage the motor is limited to 250W & the motor must cut out at 25Kph.
Apologies if I going over old ground.
As for the above, the answer would be "pretty much" except that a bike which requires a pedalling motion must also conform to EN15194.
If you feel it does, just put a sticker on it saying so - It should have one already, but some dont. It doesn't really matter who puts the sticker on it, just that it's there - Here's what it has to have on it -
EPAC
According to EN 15194:
25 km/h
250 W
Regards
David
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby whowin76 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:41 pm
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby cj7hawk » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:27 pm
Laser printer... Glue....whowin76 wrote:Please where can you buy a 200W or 250W sticker ?
Making it yourself is OK - Doesn't really matter who made it -
200w bikes don't need stickers.
Regards
David
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby giantdefy » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:27 pm
I dont think we should call for greater nanny state issues, as long as the ebike has the look and similar weight to a bicycle.
If people are cycling dangerously, its a matter of community engagement and warning people in awareness campaigns.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:08 am
You must ride in a different universe than me. So many tools on the paths do stupid and selfish things that are outrageoulsy and clearly so. So clear that anything we tell them will not inform them anymore than they already are.giantdefy wrote:I personally like the e-bikes, and i would liek to see the regulations around them reduced.
I dont think we should call for greater nanny state issues, as long as the ebike has the look and similar weight to a bicycle.
If people are cycling dangerously, its a matter of community engagement and warning people in awareness campaigns.
That applies to cyclists, e-bikers, pedestrians, dog walkers. I'm not talking rare exceptions. About the only group I can think of that have never acted in any way against my interests are unicyclists.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby Kalgrm » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:20 am
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Music was better when ugly people were allowed to make it ....
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby DuncanS » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:29 pm
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby redned » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:17 pm
A juggle of unicyclistsDuncanS wrote:They're the ones tossing clubs to each other.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby rolandp » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:20 pm
Two unicyclists in a group is more commonly known as a bicycle.Kalgrm wrote:There is a group of unicyclists?
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby Kalgrm » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:28 pm
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Music was better when ugly people were allowed to make it ....
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby Kalgrm » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:31 pm
Cheers,
Graeme
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby Bunged Knee » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:23 pm
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:09 pm
Naaah! Three is better classified as "odd". Ergo, those who ride them are odd.Bunged Knee wrote:And 3 is "disconnected tricycle"?
Hmmm - the number one is ... No wait, let me rethink that!
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:12 pm
Aah, that explains it.Kalgrm wrote:Nah, I love seeing Colin out there. Our paths won't cross much now that I'm no longer in the city, but the PSP is truly a shared resource, and he proves the point so well.
Cheers,
Graeme
I've noticed an almost total absence of Roland in the last couple of years. I suspect that is a result of the screwed up deviations around Betty's Jetty hole-in-the-river works.
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby worzel » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:25 am
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Re: Pedelecs may be technically illegal in WA now.. Petrol i
Postby cj7hawk » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:54 pm
Picking on you? I noticed the recent laws are actually singling you out - Seems Unicycles have been lumped with other menaces like skateboards and unattended children.ColinOldnCranky wrote: About the only group I can think of that have never acted in any way against my interests are unicyclists.
Just got back from London, and wow, what a difference. Lots of young girls on the paths, on everything from skateboards to scooters - even saw some older ( around 20-ish looking ) girls riding scooters to work in all their work gear.
Australia really has a problem in hating anything that's not specifically "allowed"...
David
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