Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

cj7hawk
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Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby cj7hawk » Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:15 pm

Hi All,

Please add in any events that have been reported to police here - Including the incident number provided. Over time, this will give us a record by which to criticize the police publicly and in the media, to force them to take action to protect cyclists.

Please note, it's very important that *every* incident is reported by as many people as possible ( must be a witness or involved... )

OK, My event.

Details: Driver attempted to run me down ( Assault )-
Evidence: Registration and what I remembered about the car provided. No video.
Report Number: 160515150297921
Action taken by police after 3 months: Nil.

Over time, if we can add to this list, it will grow. Police ignoring one incident doesn't achieve anything, but a thread with several incidents over time will provide a basis to request changes to the law. It will also provide material that Journalists can use to support stories in which cyclists claim our lives are being put at risk by lax policing.

This is NOT an attack on police. Unless we bring attention to the situation, police will not receive the appropriate resources to investigate and support cyclists as a group. If police respond to a report later, then please edit the original and update with new information.

A lot of anger on this forum is placed on Police for not doing anything about our situation. Let's give them a hand in this matter by highlighting that more needs to be done, so resources can be allocated appropriately. Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Please add in your own reports. If an incident was reported but you don't have the number, just note that - This will only work if others join in

David.

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Cycleops70
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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:31 am

Due to the apathy of the police, I've not bothered to report most stuff these days. But I have kept a record so far.
The first 2 were dealt with by the same guy, & despite not being able to pursue anything, he did talk to them & had a very positive attitude.
Since then I think the process has changed & each complaint is sent to the local area & is handled differently each time. But mostly with no response.

One I felt was so bad I reported it in person, but I now realise this was a mistake as there is no record of it.




Report #-----------------------------Date---------------------Time-------Reg---------Response---result------Video link
No report number---------------------------------------------------------1DAQ 484---Yes---------No action-- http://youtu.be/INmdIE4LCh4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No report number---------------------------------------------------------1DQM 576---Yes---------No action-- http://youtu.be/OoVCuTzxQVQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TCF-19052014-000007-------------18/05/2014------------2:45 PM----9IN 603------None------None-------- http://youtu.be/5UolplWkS1M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
171113 1457 85596-----------------17/11/2013------------7:30 AM---1CLI 013-----Yes--------cautioned-- http://youtu.be/FG5x2LpETY4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TCF-27022014-000008-------------26/02/2014------------8:13 AM----1TNW904---None------None-------- http://youtu.be/4yUpct22T54" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TCF-26042014-000002-------------26/04/2014------------9:35 AM----1DTM 678---None------None-------- http://youtu.be/yojcnODAFnU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TCF-22062014-000007-------------22/06/2014------------9:20 Am----1EBG 369---none------none-------- http://youtu.be/WLfPpx1z84g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TCF-27072014-000004-------------27/07/2014------------8:40---------1CVP 369---None------none------- http://youtu.be/aWMQZ0Wz5K4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Form completed at Joondalup---20/09/2014------------8:28---------1CTU 156---None------none------- https://youtu.be/amE3A6iLZ-Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TCF-01032015-000004-------------25/02/2015------------18:32--------1ASG 379---Yes--------"no offence" https://youtu.be/hG_ub7CDdWc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Despite what some might think about using cameras, I don’t go looking for trouble. I am very selective in the roads I use, and times I use them. I avoid conflict as much as possible, but I will do what I need to (like taking a lane) to protect myself.
But I’d much prefer an un eventful ride.

From my experiences, I’ve found reporting to police pointless. But as you say David, if we don’t the police will consider that there is no issue to apply resources to. Though I have found myself reducing the amount I report.

Reporting to haulage companies will only gets you laughed at.
Reporting to Transperth or high profile companies (like Watercorp) will get a better response than the police.

All these videos should be unlisted (not available without the link)

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby cj7hawk » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:58 pm

Details: Driver driving carelessly, unsafe distance for passing.
Evidence: Video, reaction and photographs. Silver Hyundai Accent 4 door.
Report Number: 140815 100386691
Action taken by police: Called me back to verify license plate .

Note: No aggro here, just some careless driving. I was wearing a high vis jacket, sun was behind me and I had high intensity lights to the rear ( permanently on ). There was no reason for the drive to come as close as they did, and there was a LOT of space ( enough for another car ) to their right - They broke the solid line too. I doubt they were targeting me and that almost makes me want to ignore it - but it's careless driving like this that leads to accidents. From the painted lines, it's clear they did not allow more than a meter - and they had no reason not to either. Reported as an Incident. ( important to make sure these are reported as incidents ). These sort if incidents are important to report.

Image
Image

From http://rsc.wa.gov.au/Road-Rules-Penalti ... cle-Riding" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Penalties - Drivers
Failing to overtake a bicycle at a safe distance = 4 demerit points and $400 fine.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Yagan » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:56 pm

Cyclops70. From having a look at all your videos I would be avoiding Wannaroo rd, seems to be a common theme I that area.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby citywomble » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:57 pm

Yep,

It leads to Wanneroo and connects to the main industrial areas NOR.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Cycleops70 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:51 pm

Yagan wrote:Cyclops70. From having a look at all your videos I would be avoiding Wannaroo rd, seems to be a common theme I that area.
It used to be part of a regular route, where the off road infrastructure did'nt join up, so I had to use the road.
Not so much a case of a hot spot for bad driving, but more of a case of; that was the only interaction I had with drivers.

I've since varied my rides to take in better roads* & earlier start time (5am) so I avoid the majority of lazy drivers.

*Not sure this can be attributed to the reason for skimming a cyclist. When there are 2 lanes, there should be no excuse to pass within the same lane.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:48 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:
Yagan wrote:Cyclops70. From having a look at all your videos I would be avoiding Wannaroo rd, seems to be a common theme I that area.
It used to be part of a regular route, where the off road infrastructure did'nt join up, so I had to use the road.
Not so much a case of a hot spot for bad driving, but more of a case of; that was the only interaction I had with drivers.

I've since varied my rides to take in better roads* & earlier start time (5am) so I avoid the majority of lazy drivers.

*Not sure this can be attributed to the reason for skimming a cyclist. When there are 2 lanes, there should be no excuse to pass within the same lane.
This is one of the greatest dangers we face, and it happens to me nearly every time I ride in traffic with two lanes - Cars are unwilling to wait and unwilling to break into the other lane to overtake - the result is that they all get too close. Some don't even try to leave us a space and they represent the greatest danger, so it's critical that we publicly record police reticence to act on this - The other thread about the scooter on the Path? Police will never take action as it was never reported to the police. It's vitally critical that every infraction is reported and a report number taken down.

Thanks for adding in your own reports - Every report counts -

David.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby softy » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:07 pm

cj7hawk wrote:
Cycleops70 wrote:
Yagan wrote:Cyclops70. From having a look at all your videos I would be avoiding Wannaroo rd, seems to be a common theme I that area.
It used to be part of a regular route, where the off road infrastructure did'nt join up, so I had to use the road.
Not so much a case of a hot spot for bad driving, but more of a case of; that was the only interaction I had with drivers.

I've since varied my rides to take in better roads* & earlier start time (5am) so I avoid the majority of lazy drivers.

*Not sure this can be attributed to the reason for skimming a cyclist. When there are 2 lanes, there should be no excuse to pass within the same lane.
This is one of the greatest dangers we face, and it happens to me nearly every time I ride in traffic with two lanes - Cars are unwilling to wait and unwilling to break into the other lane to overtake - the result is that they all get too close. Some don't even try to leave us a space and they represent the greatest danger, so it's critical that we publicly record police reticence to act on this - The other thread about the scooter on the Path? Police will never take action as it was never reported to the police. It's vitally critical that every infraction is reported and a report number taken down.

Thanks for adding in your own reports - Every report counts -

David.
I do believe you will be wasting your time, the police are not interested in close passes, no one was hurt.

As for the drivers not moving over to the centre lane, it is; they believe you shouldn't be there, on that road that is and why should I have to move over. Many even want to give you a message.
If I ride on a arterial road with double lanes when busy I will put money on it I will be beep at least once. My suggestion is to avoid those roads if possible. You will never change their attitude, the police aren't interested and it is dangerous. I have given up riding on these roads, you just get to much abuse unless out of peak hours like five in the morning.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Thoglette » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:50 pm

softy wrote:I do believe you will be wasting your time, the police are not interested in close passes, no one was hurt.
Which is the whole point of this thread. We need to rekindle that interest.

In particular, that no one needs to be "hurt" for an offence to have occurred - neither failing to pass safely (#144) nor assault

Given that we're into "beliefs" I'll confess that I believe that certain people are talking with certain other people about "clarifying" the definition of reckless, dangerous and careless driving.

(http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/12/a-met ... st-safety/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for some vids on why it matters
Interestingly, back on 2012ORS, RAC, BWA, BTA and CWA were all pro 1M with only the MTA and the usual pay-rego clown commenters agin it.)
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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Cycleops70 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:46 am

Softy is correct. Because of the way the law is written, the police will do nothing unless they hit you (the officers I have spoken to have confirmed this).

As the law defines a "safe distance" when overtaking as "sufficient to avoid a collision".

Although, I'm sure if a police motorcyclist was passed in a similar manner, they may quickly apply "driving in a manner that is dangerous to the public" (reckless driving road traffic code 2000).

I was never a fan of minimum passing distance, but unless the law is changed, police will continue to brush this off.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Thoglette » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:50 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:I was never a fan of minimum passing distance, but unless the law is changed, police will continue to brush this off.
While conveniently ignoring the second half of the existing regulation 124 b )
Road Traffic Code 2000 wrote: (b )shall not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle is travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past that vehicle to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle.
Emphasis mine. If you feel the need to change your line or hit the brakes, this has been breached. One might also argue that if you actually touch (or are touched by) the passing vehicle, a collision has occurred (given that the regulations describe collisions involving pedestrians)
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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby cj7hawk » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:45 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Cycleops70 wrote:I was never a fan of minimum passing distance, but unless the law is changed, police will continue to brush this off.
While conveniently ignoring the second half of the existing regulation 124 b )
Road Traffic Code 2000 wrote: (b )shall not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle is travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past that vehicle to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle.
Emphasis mine. If you feel the need to change your line or hit the brakes, this has been breached. One might also argue that if you actually touch (or are touched by) the passing vehicle, a collision has occurred (given that the regulations describe collisions involving pedestrians)
The legal definition of "Assault" under WA law is also breached in this case. There are more than enough laws.

At present, the police position is simply that such close-passes simply aren't happening or that when proven that the report was ignored are the "exception" rather than "the rule".

Proving that police are not following up on these incidents will allow the police hierarchy to direct that all of these incidents are followed up, evidence collected and drivers prosecuted where the evidence reasonably shows that the driver did not pass at a safe distance.

The Office of Road safety has officially declared this as "1 meter" so anything less, the onus would then be on the driver to prove that the smaller distance was still safe for the conditions (eg, speed, circumstances, etc ).

If the incident wasn't logged with police, then it never happened. If it wasn't recorded in this thread, then it might have well have never happened.

Regards
David

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby cj7hawk » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:42 pm

OK, having gone through with the full process, I was just down at the police station making a statement, and providing evidence about the accent that came too close while I was in the bike lane.

So far, police are certainly going through the process and have provided me details so I can contact them in a few weeks to find out what happened about this.

I'll keep providing updates - but kudos to wapol, they are following the process at this point in time.

David

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby rolandp » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:04 pm

David, have you considered contacting BWA?

Recent e-mail from BWA indicates:
Improving riding conditions - Ensuring the police and other authorities fulfil obligations

My personal success rate with reporting items to WA Police would be less than 50% - the two times I had confirmation back it was 'The driver was given a verbal warning' - and I class this as a 'success', as least I had confirmation back.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Aushiker » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:36 pm

rolandp wrote:My personal success rate with reporting items to WA Police would be less than 50% - the two times I had confirmation back it was 'The driver was given a verbal warning' - and I class this as a 'success', as least I had confirmation back.
It has been awhile but I have had better success than that thankfully including a "seeing a change" in Superintendent in Fremantle (which of course may have nothing to do with my complaint which ended up with the now Deputy Commissioner of Police, but the timing was interesting.] Oh BTW I did end up telling the now Deputy Commissioner that in future I will keep my letters to one page and single syllable words which made it very clear what I thought of his competence or rather lack of ... suspect it would have been rather embarrassing for him :). I also copied the Commissioner in ... that didn't help as they guy got promoted :lol:

Oh I have got up the nose of the replacement Super at Fremantle which I consider a win as he is now on notice and he knows it. The response since from Fremantle Traffic has been exemplary. Always get a response from the person in charge of traffic there ... no constables for me :lol:

My other little interesting experience was a phone call from another Superintendent (Morley IIRC) in which lets just say he got told in no uncertain terms that I didn't give a damn about his "uniform". If he is lazy and incompetent I will let him know and I did and I told Commissioner what I thought ... that resulted in visit by WA finest to collect the DVD of the incident and a fine subsequently being issued.

I have learned that when it matters to take a no holds barred approach and when it is not so important to just take the response or lack of action from the Police with a grain of salt {I track it but and it is there to bring up in support of a more important matter if appropriate. For example they have had a chat to Transperth at Fremantle which put at least put them on notice and has in my experience improved interaction with the buses somewhat. On the other hand my first interactions at Fremantle didn't even get a phone call to Transperth.

Andrew

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby cj7hawk » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:36 am

Just an update on this one - The police are still investigating my last complaint and are looking for the guy who was driving - So I assume that my complaint was only the tip of the iceberg and they have an interest in locating the driver. However at this stage they are unable to locate them.

But it does highlight how important it is to
a) Collect evidence.
b) Indicate willingness to go to court.
c) Report it to the police.

If a particular driver cuts close to a cyclist it might just be an accident - and if the driver has a good record, likely no action will be taken. But if someone has a bad record, then the police are much more likely to get involved.

I'll update as it proceeds.

David

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:05 am

Skimmed at 100Kph with a clear lane oposite. https://youtu.be/S_XEE-qHFK0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm only posting this as the police response is just astounding;

"We have viewed the footage you provided for the above complaint.

It has been assessed that the Land Cruiser in question moved over the white line in an attempt to give you space on the road, and as a result did not collide with you. I appreciate that you believe the space provided was not enough, however, there is no legislation to support the issue you have raised.

Kargotich Road is a particularly narrow road, and most road users of it are FWD and trucks. Please be cautious when cycling on roads such as Kargotich Road, as there is little to no room for vehicles/trucks to go to avoid you (when there is traffic coming in the opposite direction). With the speed limit of 90-100kmh, many of those vehicles overtake each other, and there may be an occasion where a vehicle does not see you due to traffic ahead of them blocking you from their sight.

Thankyou for your time

Regards"
Last edited by Cycleops70 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:08 am

This one received a letter of caution. Not for pushing through on a single lane roundabout, but for wheelspinning while they did it.
https://youtu.be/lBS6HrpoF0Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Lozzie » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:45 am

Currently the police don't give a crap about hit and runs involving cars (they are currently investigating May) They are incredibly under resourced. And their opinion is m'we have better things to do' Write to your MP write to the police minister. They just don't care.
Last edited by Lozzie on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:06 pm

Cycleops70 wrote:Skimmed at 100Kph with a clear lane oposite. https://youtu.be/S_XEE-qHFK0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm only posting this as the police response is just astounding;

"We have viewed the footage you provided for the above complaint.

It has been assessed that the Land Cruiser in question moved over the white line in an attempt to give you space on the road, and as a result did not collide with you. I appreciate that you believe the space provided was not enough, however, there is no legislation to support the issue you have raised.

Kargotich Road is a particularly narrow road, and most road users of it are FWD and trucks. Please be cautious when cycling on roads such as Kargotich Road, as there is little to no room for vehicles/trucks to go to avoid you (when there is traffic coming in the opposite direction). With the speed limit of 90-100kmh, many of those vehicles overtake each other, and there may be an occasion where a vehicle does not see you due to traffic ahead of them blocking you from their sight.

Thankyou for your time

Regards"
This is an absolute disgrace of a response.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:18 pm

Lozzie wrote:Currently the police don't give a !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! about hit and runs involving cars (they are currently investigating May) They are incredibly under resourced. And their opinion is m'we have better things to do' Write to your MP write to the police minister. They just don't care.
Lozzie, as you have stated the police are "incredibly under resourced. Given that, how can you then know whether or not they give a fig? Without adequate time and powers a caring cop having to decide what gets his attention will appear much the same as a cop that genuinely DOES not care a fig.

Besides, you honestly think that they don't care about hit and runs? In cases of actual hits they "currently" go after them very hard and very publicly and of late it appears that not many offenders doing real damage remain unidentified for long.

Sure, some cops may not be able to expend enough effort in prevention, in acting on many near misses. But as you yourself said, they are incredibly under resourced. And for every case of a cop pushing something aside I venture there is a case of some twirp in the public making a frivolous complaint or demanding excessive action for their particular but insignificant incident and embellishing and exaggerating the "facts" (!!!) in order to do so. We even see those behaviors here to some extent and this forum is a beacon of self-criticism and objectivity compared to most forums.

Having to stretch yourself across too much work and having to filter out the important from the dross does not mean the police do not care. It is a reflection on us as much as it is on police attitudes. And the attitudes of those ministers you refer to. Yes, we should be taking it up with our politicians. And support BWA who does so on our behalf. I'd say our politicians are less caring of the cyclists plight than the overstretched police force.

Not to deny that there will the more than just an odd cop that is jaded and should be put out to pasture.
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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Aushiker » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:44 pm

wellington_street wrote:
Cycleops70 wrote:Skimmed at 100Kph with a clear lane oposite. https://youtu.be/S_XEE-qHFK0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm only posting this as the police response is just astounding;

"We have viewed the footage you provided for the above complaint.

It has been assessed that the Land Cruiser in question moved over the white line in an attempt to give you space on the road, and as a result did not collide with you. I appreciate that you believe the space provided was not enough, however, there is no legislation to support the issue you have raised.

Kargotich Road is a particularly narrow road, and most road users of it are FWD and trucks. Please be cautious when cycling on roads such as Kargotich Road, as there is little to no room for vehicles/trucks to go to avoid you (when there is traffic coming in the opposite direction). With the speed limit of 90-100kmh, many of those vehicles overtake each other, and there may be an occasion where a vehicle does not see you due to traffic ahead of them blocking you from their sight.

Thankyou for your time

Regards"
This is an absolute disgrace of a response.
It is WA Police standard interpretation of the legislation from my experience. You need to tick all boxes (i.e., get close passed, be cut in, have to take avoiding action) plus get hit. Maybe, just maybe hitting the ground without actually being hit by the vehicle might count, if you are lucky.

My suggestion is to write to the to Minister of Police asking why this is consider not a breach of the relevant section of the Road Traffic Code, i.e., why does she and the Police Commissioner consider it safe to pass a human being at 100 km/h with less than one metre of space. I would also ask the Minister and Police Commissioner if they would like to stand on the road with their back to the approaching vehicle and be passed in such manner. If not, why do they consider this driving acceptable?

At least the Police Commissioner will then have to explain to the Minister the decision. You might not get an outcome in the first instance (you will not I suspect given the wording of the Road Traffic code) but you likely see improved responses down the line from that same station. The Commissioner is rather sensitive to having to explain things to the Minister ... :wink:

Andrew

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Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Cycleops70 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:53 pm

Hi Andrew,

Yeah I understand the position of close passing & the lack of law relevant to this to take action.
And to be honest, I'm not sure I expected any outcome.

What concerns me more is the second part of this response. So many excuses offered on the drivers behalf.
Narrow road, fast heavy vehicles, traffic coming the other way. All invalid and biased.
And the language too, 'the vehicle may not see me'.

This annoys me a lot. De-humanising, & removing accountability by referring to the vehicle rather than the driver.

It's disappointing to see this in the police, but I guess not surprising as it is such a common mind set, ingrained in culture that the police are not immune to this either.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby Lozzie » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:33 pm

Colin I'm talking about my experiences with the police. They see this type of incident (and cars doing hit and runs on other cars) as very low down the totem pole. The individual officer does not also fully understand how back logged their fellow officers are.

Unless there is serious injury they don't care. (As an orginisation) They don't have the proper resources and they have too much other stuff to do.

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Re: Failure/Success of WA Policing - Register of incidents.

Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:50 pm

Aushiker wrote:It is WA Police standard interpretation of the legislation from my experience. You need to tick all boxes (i.e., get close passed, be cut in, have to take avoiding action) plus get hit. Maybe, just maybe hitting the ground without actually being hit by the vehicle might count, if you are lucky.
Biggest issue is the complete disregard for any driver responsibility and victim blaming in the 2nd part of the response.

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