Elizabeth Quay almost opened

softy
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:02 pm

So does this mean coming from the Narrows is going to be a hell lot easier to connect to Barrack street?

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:08 am

softy wrote:So does this mean coming from the Narrows is going to be a hell lot easier to connect to Barrack street?
Yep.

You'll want to stick to the path west of the bell tower until you get to the lights at Barrack St as the road is ragged paving unfriendly to walkers, riders, drivers and any form of beast. :x
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nachoman
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby nachoman » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:39 pm

Road across this morning. I counted about 10 cyclists and one pedestrian on the bridge, and a bobcat on the approach.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby 방구 똥 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:22 pm

방구 똥 wrote:Set up a strava bridge segment and watch people go for it.
I've done this, but it was hard to judge the beginning and end of the bridge from google maps when there is no path showing and no satellite to judge from :D

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:10 pm

방구 똥 wrote:
방구 똥 wrote:Set up a strava bridge segment and watch people go for it.
I've done this, but it was hard to judge the beginning and end of the bridge from google maps when there is no path showing and no satellite to judge from :D
Are you serious?

My understanding is that the ONLY purpose of a strava segment is for riders to compare their performance. But, not being a strava user, I'm willing to be enlightened. Is there any other function?
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rolandp
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby rolandp » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:02 am

Brand new shared path next to William St blocked by one red i30 and partially blocked by one red motor bike on the ride home this evening. More than one cyclists was red faced with anger, as we navigated around them.

Do the right thing. Don't park on footpaths, shared paths and cycle ways. Reported to City of Perth including photo.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby 방구 똥 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:18 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
방구 똥 wrote:
방구 똥 wrote:Set up a strava bridge segment and watch people go for it.
I've done this, but it was hard to judge the beginning and end of the bridge from google maps when there is no path showing and no satellite to judge from :D
Are you serious?

My understanding is that the ONLY purpose of a strava segment is for riders to compare their performance. But, not being a strava user, I'm willing to be enlightened. Is there any other function?
Yes, seriously, there isn't an updated satellite image showing the bridge yet.
Setting up this segment, I was more interested in seeing how many Strava users pass through this way each day, and at what speed they go through - not as a race :)

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:17 pm

방구 똥 wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:
방구 똥 wrote: I've done this, but it was hard to judge the beginning and end of the bridge from google maps when there is no path showing and no satellite to judge from :D
Are you serious?

My understanding is that the ONLY purpose of a strava segment is for riders to compare their performance. But, not being a strava user, I'm willing to be enlightened. Is there any other function?
Yes, seriously, there isn't an updated satellite image showing the bridge yet.
Setting up this segment, I was more interested in seeing how many Strava users pass through this way each day, and at what speed they go through - not as a race :)
Fair 'nuff.

Strava or not I fear that it will not be long before we get a media story on rampant cyclists shredding pedestrians through there terrorizing walkers and sightseers. Independently of whether there are bad riders or not. :roll:
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby 방구 똥 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:38 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote: Fair 'nuff.

Strava or not I fear that it will not be long before we get a media story on rampant cyclists shredding pedestrians through there terrorizing walkers and sightseers. Independently of whether there are bad riders or not. :roll:
It can be flagged as dangerous, then I think people won't race for leaderboards, but can still see who/when :) It'll be terrible for people to crash into each other while going for records!

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby nachoman » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:06 pm

Looked like the security guard on the eastern end of the bridge was trying to get bikes to dismount 5:15pm this afternoon. While he and a cyclist were debating his request about another 20 bikes rode past without issue.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:55 pm

Rode over ther today, no security.

Must have to say what ever happened to keeping left, peds just wondering everywhere, i was riding really slow, ringing my bell, it was like i wasn't even there. Stopped on the top took some photos. Seems nice and i imagine with time the peds will thin when the novelty has worn off.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SNAKE ® » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:10 am

방구 똥 wrote:
방구 똥 wrote:Set up a strava bridge segment and watch people go for it.
Keen to see who lays down KOM.
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citywomble
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby citywomble » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:34 am

Must have to say what ever happened to keeping left, peds just wondering everywhere
Peds are not required to keep left on shared paths in WA. But cyclists are!

That obligation was removed in 2000 ( under the Road Traffic Code) so that peds could also walk on the right, just as they are obliged to when walking on the road facing oncoming traffic. WA also prohibits riding two abreast on a shared path although, like other states, it is permitted when riding on the road.

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:23 am

softy wrote:Rode over ther today, no security.

Must have to say what ever happened to keeping left, peds just wondering everywhere, i was riding really slow, ringing my bell, it was like i wasn't even there. Stopped on the top took some photos. Seems nice and i imagine with time the peds will thin when the novelty has worn off.
You've got it in one. Everyone will be wandering around looking to see what the fuss is about and soaking up the atmosphere and it'll be like that for a while at least. I doubt that I would be any different under the circumstances.

You didn't seriously expect anything else did you?
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SimoneF » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:00 am

Wow, what an absolute lack of cycling infrastructure, disappointed. What a joke, took a beautiful flat bike path and trashed it. All that money and expertise and skills, what a missed opportunity....

I also almost got caught by that huge kerb drop by the bell tower! They're on The Esplanade shared footpath as well, painted grey of course so you cant see them unless your head is anchored downwards. Dangerous as hell, good luck to first time cyclists round there or if cycling at night!

City of Perth should put a counter at the bridge, cant wait to see cyclists outnumber pedestrians. Being a non-car owner riding in from Queens Park, that Riverside Drive PSP was my safe lifeline to the Narrows/City and beyond. Cant believe they just cut it from one day to the next. Shame shame.

We should all go there and finish the contractors job by removing all those stupid barrier gates and shout Enough is Enough! Sick of this Liberal government denying cyclists human right of accessibility.
Cant believe all that money... and the Designers and Engineers couldn't even create a 'bike-only commuter bridge', like the Windan Bridge PSP? It could've run under or along (at a lower level) the current bridge. Where in the world do the Gov's get away with treating cyclists with contempt? We need a fast lane for commuting, when I ride, its not for a leisurely turn about the forest, I need to get somewhere....fast. Why didn't the designers factor in the truth that thousands and thousands of people used this connection prior as a cycling expressway (so to speak)??

Its typical of this Liberal government, should see the Gateway WA - still no track mats at the end of footpaths so I'm riding over sand pit of blue metal for months, "No Bikes" signs at the overpasses, Main roads new obsession with compacted pea gravel on either side of the footpath. Seriously Main Roads? Your outsourced contractor who outsources to their contractor who contracts to their contractor perform the worst quality, crudest civil construction I have ever seen. Sure enough as soon as the rain came, the pea gravel MARBLES were washed all over the entire footpath, I suppose you deserve an engineering award for that one.

Liberals once again showing their anti-cycling credentials. Don't cut off a smooth, direct, accessible Riverside Drive PSP and tell me to be grateful for your overpriced bumpy, loopy plank bridge.

I wont let this ignorant government stop me (28 year old, cycling for 25 of those years) from cycling where I see fit (safely) for me to do so.
Hope to see all the old riders back on this path in numbers, smoothing out those razor sharp cobblestones! When will agencies learn, road cyclist don't ride on concrete block FOOTpaths with gaps every 2 metres? (Aargh so disappointed)

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Sinner » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:11 pm

Huge kerb drops? I'd use the pram ramps on the shared paths - much easier on the wheels.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby citywomble » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:06 pm

When will agencies learn, road cyclist don't ride on concrete block FOOTpaths with gaps every 2 metres? (Aargh so disappointed)
Perhaps the answer is in your comment.

Perhaps road cyclists shouldnt ride on paths, whether shared or not, just like other road vehicles, unless they tone down their expectations.

The issue here is that road cyclists should be seeking better roads and better BIKE paths. Many people and agencies, and even Austroads, consider that paths are for 'normal' cyclists and not for 'roadies'. In the event that a road cyclist does need to use a busy footpath or shared path (such as are provided through Elizabeth Quay) the perhaps they need to ride as a Pedestrian On a Bike Shaped Object (POBSO) at a slow speed and treating all peds as a Give Way sign.

If you accept that view then perhaps the surface treatments, including concrete block footpaths with gaps every 2metres, is perhaps an appropriate decision.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Scott_C » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:04 pm

citywomble wrote:
When will agencies learn, road cyclist don't ride on concrete block FOOTpaths with gaps every 2 metres? (Aargh so disappointed)
Perhaps the answer is in your comment.

Perhaps road cyclists shouldnt ride on paths, whether shared or not, just like other road vehicles, unless they tone down their expectations.

The issue here is that road cyclists should be seeking better roads and better BIKE paths. Many people and agencies, and even Austroads, consider that paths are for 'normal' cyclists and not for 'roadies'. In the event that a road cyclist does need to use a busy footpath or shared path (such as are provided through Elizabeth Quay) the perhaps they need to ride as a Pedestrian On a Bike Shaped Object (POBSO) at a slow speed and treating all peds as a Give Way sign.

If you accept that view then perhaps the surface treatments, including concrete block footpaths with gaps every 2metres, is perhaps an appropriate decision.
It is a reasonable point of view but there is also a reasonable argument to be made that there was previously a higher quality bike route through this area, that is occasionally labelled as a bike path rather than a shared path, that has been removed as part of these works without any effort to provide an alternative of similar utility for cyclists travelling East-West through the city.

If the changes were at least accompanied with the simple modification of allowing cyclists to ride in the bus lanes on the terrace, providing an alternative east-west passage for road cyclists then I would be more inclined to agree with your view.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:47 am

SimoneF wrote:Wow, what an absolute lack of cycling infrastructure, disappointed. What a joke, took a beautiful flat bike path and trashed it. All that money and expertise and skills, what a missed opportunity....

I also almost got caught by that huge kerb drop by the bell tower! They're on The Esplanade shared footpath as well, painted grey of course so you cant see them unless your head is anchored downwards. Dangerous as hell, good luck to first time cyclists round there or if cycling at night!

City of Perth should put a counter at the bridge, cant wait to see cyclists outnumber pedestrians. Being a non-car owner riding in from Queens Park, that Riverside Drive PSP was my safe lifeline to the Narrows/City and beyond. Cant believe they just cut it from one day to the next. Shame shame.

We should all go there and finish the contractors job by removing all those stupid barrier gates and shout Enough is Enough! Sick of this Liberal government denying cyclists human right of accessibility.
Cant believe all that money... and the Designers and Engineers couldn't even create a 'bike-only commuter bridge', like the Windan Bridge PSP? It could've run under or along (at a lower level) the current bridge. Where in the world do the Gov's get away with treating cyclists with contempt? We need a fast lane for commuting, when I ride, its not for a leisurely turn about the forest, I need to get somewhere....fast. Why didn't the designers factor in the truth that thousands and thousands of people used this connection prior as a cycling expressway (so to speak)??

Its typical of this Liberal government, should see the Gateway WA - still no track mats at the end of footpaths so I'm riding over sand pit of blue metal for months, "No Bikes" signs at the overpasses, Main roads new obsession with compacted pea gravel on either side of the footpath. Seriously Main Roads? Your outsourced contractor who outsources to their contractor who contracts to their contractor perform the worst quality, crudest civil construction I have ever seen. Sure enough as soon as the rain came, the pea gravel MARBLES were washed all over the entire footpath, I suppose you deserve an engineering award for that one.

Liberals once again showing their anti-cycling credentials. Don't cut off a smooth, direct, accessible Riverside Drive PSP and tell me to be grateful for your overpriced bumpy, loopy plank bridge.

I wont let this ignorant government stop me (28 year old, cycling for 25 of those years) from cycling where I see fit (safely) for me to do so.
Hope to see all the old riders back on this path in numbers, smoothing out those razor sharp cobblestones! When will agencies learn, road cyclist don't ride on concrete block FOOTpaths with gaps every 2 metres? (Aargh so disappointed)
Methinks you expect too much. And seemingly a willingness to treat other users with that same contempt you feel is applied to you. Indeed, your statement "City of Perth should put a counter at the bridge, cant wait to see cyclists outnumber pedestrians" indicates that you think it is a competition between you/us and pedestrians. I want to see more of both, not one traded off against the other. Contempt you were saying?

Just be glad that it is finished and meets the basic needs of cyclists, it was never going to be a bike freeway. It is more a pedestrian mall and peds will get a lot of benefit from it. I think we can accept less than a freeway for a couple of hundred metres so that other stakeholders can also enjoy it, just as we expect motorists to accept us sharing the road with them for OUR enjoyment and utility.


I think I know what you are talking about with curb drop near the bell tower, and if so yes, it is unexpected. I posted on it some time ago. No reason for NOT ramping a lousy metre as far as I can see.

But if you almost came to grief on it then you should be looking at yourself too. New space not ridden before? Then you and any other first timers ride appropriately and, yes, cast gaze down and a little closer if need be until it is familiar territory. Moderate speed for a while too. Not much different than driving a car in unfamiliar streets in built up areas. If yo expect instead to be racing through places never before ridden than I'd prefer you not be on the same paths as I am on.

"'bike-only commuter bridge', like the Windan Bridge PSP?" PSP is a Principal Shared Path so by definition that bridge can't be a bike only path.

Are yo aware that the Elizabeth Quay bridge was specifically widened for cyclists in recognition of the difficulty for many to dismount and walk it (think cleats) after agitation by cyclists? And it does just that. I have ridden it and, even at this early stage of lots of curious gawking peds , I find it perfectly safe and easy to ride just not at speed. What, we are incapable of sharing an eight meter wide path with pedestrians? :roll: I trust you do not expect to able to go thru at speed as that is a sure fire way to see bike access reconsidered to the disadvantage of cyclists.

I fail to see much value for money by blasting a lot of money to a separate bridge. So you suggest that we spend tens of millions so that you can accelerate to speed after entry and then decelerate over a span of something under 80 metres. Beccause you should still be riding before and after on essentially pedestrian mall space.

The old route was not perfect for speed either, with subsidence along the water wall to the west (far more cyclists there than your side btw) and pinch points in places and random crossings by peds. And a botch of a job for those entering onto and then riding north along Barrack Street. That has all now been addressed to an extent.

I don't know what barriers you are referring to, not on my route but there are many routes through the area so maybe explore alternate routes.

Yeah, the sharp paving sucks and has elicited much complaint already. Landscapers wet dream.

Pea gravel? Capital L Lethal. Thankfully I have none of that on my routes, honky nuts over winter are dangerous enough. Or used CO2 canisters left by uncaring cyclists to roll across paths.

Bottom line? Ride to the conditions. Get familiar with the new layouts at lower speeds for a time. Recognise that you are not the only user and that no one, motorist or cyclist, gets a totally fast run from home to work in the CBD. And be thankful that you do not have to walk in cleats across the whole lot as was the original plan.
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Sinner
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Sinner » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:08 pm

Well said Colin

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Sprocket » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:15 pm

Once again Colin provides the WA BNA Voice of Reason.
Thanks Colin.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby jonhanson » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:40 pm

I tend to agree with Colin. Simone your disppointment is intense. My experience has been a bit odd. There is a woman ( security guard ?) who stands at one end of the bridge and screams "Walking speed" at cyclists as they cross to much guffawing and scoffing every time I have been over from the cyclists around me. A fairly unrealistic expectation if you ask me. And where have they explained that that is what they are asking for ? Very odd. I don't know if we can actually ride that slowly without falling over. And I love the cobbles - but then I also love Roobaix and watching them race on the cobbles. It's great to have that kind of surface for a change. If we lived in parts of Europe it would be the norm. I ride on the raised bits to get to the bridge so no massive 1 metre drop offs. However I feel much safer than having to go around Elizabeth Quay which was not very nice at all.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby NASHIE » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:16 pm

Had a look today and will be first and last time to ride through. IMO the bridge will need some bike calming devices. Once the security peeps have gone I'm sure want-a-bee racers will be causing havoc through the area. Agree with SimoneF that its not bike friendly and a dedicated PSP needs to run around the whole precinct to keep commuters/racers out. Its a tourist/rubber necker area and peds shouldn't have to looking out for bikes all the time. It really is a walking/jogging pace area and if you can't ride that slow then don't go in there.

softy
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:30 pm

citywomble wrote:
When will agencies learn, road cyclist don't ride on concrete block FOOTpaths with gaps every 2 metres? (Aargh so disappointed)
Perhaps the answer is in your comment.

Perhaps road cyclists shouldnt ride on paths, whether shared or not, just like other road vehicles, unless they tone down their expectations.

The issue here is that road cyclists should be seeking better roads and better BIKE paths. Many people and agencies, and even Austroads, consider that paths are for 'normal' cyclists and not for 'roadies'. In the event that a road cyclist does need to use a busy footpath or shared path (such as are provided through Elizabeth Quay) the perhaps they need to ride as a Pedestrian On a Bike Shaped Object (POBSO) at a slow speed and treating all peds as a Give Way sign.

If you accept that view then perhaps the surface treatments, including concrete block footpaths with gaps every 2metres, is perhaps an appropriate decision.
i will have to correct you there, this is completely wrong. There is no legal or other destinction between bicycles unless outside the definition in the RTC 2000.

A cycle path can be used by all bikes defined under the act. I do think the point being made is, the previous infrustructure was better for commuters on bicyclex entering the city and these routes are the most used on a weekly basis. It is true that the bridge area has no defined path, no keep left and no road markings. It maybe more hazardous due to these advisory information being deleted. I do see the point made earlier although made with emotion.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:04 am

softy wrote:
citywomble wrote:
When will agencies learn, road cyclist don't ride on concrete block FOOTpaths with gaps every 2 metres? (Aargh so disappointed)
Perhaps the answer is in your comment.

Perhaps road cyclists shouldnt ride on paths, whether shared or not, just like other road vehicles, unless they tone down their expectations.

The issue here is that road cyclists should be seeking better roads and better BIKE paths. Many people and agencies, and even Austroads, consider that paths are for 'normal' cyclists and not for 'roadies'. In the event that a road cyclist does need to use a busy footpath or shared path (such as are provided through Elizabeth Quay) the perhaps they need to ride as a Pedestrian On a Bike Shaped Object (POBSO) at a slow speed and treating all peds as a Give Way sign.

If you accept that view then perhaps the surface treatments, including concrete block footpaths with gaps every 2metres, is perhaps an appropriate decision.
i will have to correct you there, this is completely wrong. There is no legal or other destinction between bicycles unless outside the definition in the RTC 2000.

A cycle path can be used by all bikes defined under the act. I do think the point being made is, the previous infrustructure was better for commuters on bicyclex entering the city and these routes are the most used on a weekly basis. It is true that the bridge area has no defined path, no keep left and no road markings. It maybe more hazardous due to these advisory information being deleted. I do see the point made earlier although made with emotion.
No correction required. It is obvious that CityWomble was not talking about the legalities, about which he is eminently aware anyway.

The Road Traffic Code strictly speaking should not be referred to as The Act btw. The RTC is subsidiary legislation made under the authority of the Road Traffic Act 1974. ie Regulation. And, unlike the principal Act itself, that Code is rather limited in it's scope. So if you really are looking at it from the narrow legal POV then you might consider whether the space across the bridge does actually come under the limited scope of the Road Traffic Code in the first place. Because if it does not then those points you made would be irrelevant in most of Elizabeth Quay anyway. There are plenty of paths in public space that are not subject to the RTC contrary to the almost universally held belief of otherwise. I ride a few of them myself.
Last edited by ColinOldnCranky on Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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