Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Scott_C
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Scott_C » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:51 pm

As others have noted the Road Traffic Code and definition of a shared path don't apply to the bridge as it isn't a road or associated with a road.

As far as I can tell the applicable legislation is the City of Perth Thoroughfares and Public Places Local Law 2007 (pdf).

Under this law it is illegal to:
use or allow to be used a bicycle or wheeled recreational device on a thoroughfare so as to cause a nuisance or to endanger, or unduly obstruct or hinder any other person or vehicle lawfully using the same area;
If you riding your bicycle is annoying to any pedestrian on the bridge (presumable this includes the security guards) then you seem to be breaking the law and can be subject to a $125 fine.

Another clause of this same law makes riding in the malls illegal.

dmwill
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby dmwill » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:06 am

I guess the loud freehub that sounds like a pack of wasps gave the impression to the guard that I was going faster.

Same high-vis wearing muppet would probably be unable to gauge the speed of me on a road and drive right infront of me too.

softy
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:57 am

Scott_C wrote:As others have noted the Road Traffic Code and definition of a shared path don't apply to the bridge as it isn't a road or associated with a road.

As far as I can tell the applicable legislation is the City of Perth Thoroughfares and Public Places Local Law 2007 (pdf).

Under this law it is illegal to:
use or allow to be used a bicycle or wheeled recreational device on a thoroughfare so as to cause a nuisance or to endanger, or unduly obstruct or hinder any other person or vehicle lawfully using the same area;
If you riding your bicycle is annoying to any pedestrian on the bridge (presumable this includes the security guards) then you seem to be breaking the law and can be subject to a $125 fine.

Another clause of this same law makes riding in the malls illegal.
Well this can be looked at both ways, if you are keeping left and travelling at a slow pace and peds are walking any where on the bridge, the peds do not have automatic right of way, it may be argued they are the nuisance.

My issue is it is a replacement for the previous PSP, it is a thoroughfare. Therefore why must you dismount? No legal signs are there to indicate this and a security guard has no authority to demand such a request. They have very limited authority, like call the ranger or police. Also a security guard has no training or accreditation to assess volume of traffic or how many children are on the bridge, this dismounting rubbish is basically a infringment of our rights by someone who has no authority to do so. I know this as a friend of mine runs a security business. They don't even have a right to detain you.

cj7hawk
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby cj7hawk » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:04 am

softy wrote:
Scott_C wrote:As others have noted the Road Traffic Code and definition of a shared path don't apply to the bridge as it isn't a road or associated with a road.

As far as I can tell the applicable legislation is the City of Perth Thoroughfares and Public Places Local Law 2007 (pdf).

Under this law it is illegal to:
use or allow to be used a bicycle or wheeled recreational device on a thoroughfare so as to cause a nuisance or to endanger, or unduly obstruct or hinder any other person or vehicle lawfully using the same area;
If you riding your bicycle is annoying to any pedestrian on the bridge (presumable this includes the security guards) then you seem to be breaking the law and can be subject to a $125 fine.

Another clause of this same law makes riding in the malls illegal.
Well this can be looked at both ways, if you are keeping left and travelling at a slow pace and peds are walking any where on the bridge, the peds do not have automatic right of way, it may be argued they are the nuisance.

My issue is it is a replacement for the previous PSP, it is a thoroughfare. Therefore why must you dismount? No legal signs are there to indicate this and a security guard has no authority to demand such a request. They have very limited authority, like call the ranger or police. Also a security guard has no training or accreditation to assess volume of traffic or how many children are on the bridge, this dismounting rubbish is basically a infringment of our rights by someone who has no authority to do so. I know this as a friend of mine runs a security business. They don't even have a right to detain you.
Oh, they haven't updated their bylaws to keep track with changes in state legislation.
“bicycle” means a vehicle with two or more wheels that is built to be propelled
by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not it has an
auxiliary motor)-
(a) including a pedicab, penny-farthing and tricycle; but
(b) not including a wheelchair, wheeled recreational device, wheeled toy,
scooter or a power-assisted pedal cycle (if the motor is operating);
Looks like I'm good to cut loose over the bridge !

Thought I will, of course, ride sensibly.

Regards
David

Sinner
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Sinner » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:13 pm

The bridge is MRA's responsibility, so presumably they employ security.

Scott_C
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Scott_C » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:28 pm

cj7hawk wrote: Oh, they haven't updated their bylaws to keep track with changes in state legislation.
That's not even the worst error, when they define a "bicycle" they say it means a vehicle (as per the WA Road Traffic Code definition) but when they define "vehicle" they exclude bicycle from the definition. So, by their definitions, a bicycle is a vehicle that isn't a vehicle.

Therefore there is no such thing as a bicycle under the definitions in the Law so we should all be free to do whatever we want.

jamesh
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby jamesh » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:26 pm

Scott_C wrote:As others have noted the Road Traffic Code and definition of a shared path don't apply to the bridge as it isn't a road or associated with a road.

As far as I can tell the applicable legislation is the City of Perth Thoroughfares and Public Places Local Law 2007 (pdf).

Under this law it is illegal to:
use or allow to be used a bicycle or wheeled recreational device on a thoroughfare so as to cause a nuisance or to endanger, or unduly obstruct or hinder any other person or vehicle lawfully using the same area;
If you riding your bicycle is annoying to any pedestrian on the bridge (presumable this includes the security guards) then you seem to be breaking the law and can be subject to a $125 fine.

Another clause of this same law makes riding in the malls illegal.
I'm not sure riding your bike on the left at a speed appropriate to the traffic, and not constantly ringing your bell, could be considered to be a nuisance. It would need to be interpreted using some kind of "reasonable person" reference, and take into account the intent of the rider. Otherwise there is no way for someone to know whether they are complying with the law.

Also from that document in section 2.2 (1) (c):
A person shall not, without a permit cause any obstruction to a vehicle or a person using a thoroughfare as a thoroughfare for the purposes of an event, works or other activities
So it would seem that there is no problem blocking the bridge if they have a permit, which they almost certainly have for this event. It'd be interesting to know whether that permit extends to day time use when the Fringe World festival isn't running though. Perhaps it'd be worth asking to see the permit next time I get stopped.

But whatever the legalities, it seems pretty rude to block the path without any signs beforehand to divert traffic.

softy
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:17 pm

jamesh wrote:
Scott_C wrote:As others have noted the Road Traffic Code and definition of a shared path don't apply to the bridge as it isn't a road or associated with a road.

As far as I can tell the applicable legislation is the City of Perth Thoroughfares and Public Places Local Law 2007 (pdf).

Under this law it is illegal to:
use or allow to be used a bicycle or wheeled recreational device on a thoroughfare so as to cause a nuisance or to endanger, or unduly obstruct or hinder any other person or vehicle lawfully using the same area;
If you riding your bicycle is annoying to any pedestrian on the bridge (presumable this includes the security guards) then you seem to be breaking the law and can be subject to a $125 fine.

Another clause of this same law makes riding in the malls illegal.
I'm not sure riding your bike on the left at a speed appropriate to the traffic, and not constantly ringing your bell, could be considered to be a nuisance. It would need to be interpreted using some kind of "reasonable person" reference, and take into account the intent of the rider. Otherwise there is no way for someone to know whether they are complying with the law.

Also from that document in section 2.2 (1) (c):
A person shall not, without a permit cause any obstruction to a vehicle or a person using a thoroughfare as a thoroughfare for the purposes of an event, works or other activities
So it would seem that there is no problem blocking the bridge if they have a permit, which they almost certainly have for this event. It'd be interesting to know whether that permit extends to day time use when the Fringe World festival isn't running though. Perhaps it'd be worth asking to see the permit next time I get stopped.

But whatever the legalities, it seems pretty rude to block the path without any signs beforehand to divert traffic.
What are you talking about, i have seen no event? Just people aimlessly working over the bridge with security guards hanging around.

The bridge is a public access way and has been officially opened to the public. Therfore falls under city of perth law. It is not private property. There is no gates, no signs, no warnings, no event! Anyone can walk, ride, skate, etc, over the bridge.

jamesh
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby jamesh » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:37 pm

I was referring to the Fringe World Fairground on the other side of Elizabeth Quay:

http://www.fringeworld.com.au/fairground/about/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You've got lots of people walking all around the place in the evening. In that context, it certainly looks like City of Perth laws would allow them to close the bridge to cycling provided they had acquired a permit.

softy
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby softy » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:13 pm

All pretty disappointing, one of the main access ways to the city for cyclists and fitness runners and their have made it into a glorified spectacule viewing bridge.

no running, no cycling.

All leading into that death trap Barrack street. Think i will go round on the south of the river to miss it all, much better.

Scott_C
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Scott_C » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:57 pm

Any one feel like taking MRA's Elizabeth Quay Design Guidelines (graphics heavy pdf) back to MRA and asking where the bike path is that MRA said they shall be providing?
Section 2.1.2, Page 14 wrote:The development shall incorporate a bike path linking Elizabeth Quay with the existing cycle network around the site.
It should obviously be noted that a shared path is not a bicycle path and by all reports not even a shared path has been provided if MRA's security guards are requiring riders to dismount.

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rolandp
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby rolandp » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:14 am

Scott_C wrote:Any one feel like taking MRA's Elizabeth Quay Design Guidelines (graphics heavy pdf) back to MRA and asking where the bike path is that MRA said they shall be providing?
Section 2.1.2, Page 14 wrote:The development shall incorporate a bike path linking Elizabeth Quay with the existing cycle network around the site.
It should obviously be noted that a shared path is not a bicycle path and by all reports not even a shared path has been provided if MRA's security guards are requiring riders to dismount.
Also from the guidelines 'The Bridge will also accommodate cyclists and integrate with the network of cycle paths along Elizabeth Quay and into the City.'. I am 99.9% sure as part of BTA I provided comments to these guidelines - need to dig through old correspondence.

We should all note, there are currently no shared path signs installed on the routes over the bridge. In addition, there are signs installed indicating 'no vehicles', of which a bike is a vehicle. You can draw your own conclusion if we can ride or not, as I have personally contacted MainRoads and DoT in relation to several sections of the PSP which didn't and still don't, have the required shared path signage.

BUT, I also have correspondence dating back to July-2015 from MRA indicating 'Access for cyclists and pedestrians will remain and is encouraged, with streets within the locality favouring lower speed to promote shared use activity that is safer for cyclists and pedestrians and generally more comfortable for city workers, residents and tourists.'.

If you want clarification on where we can ride, then contact MRA. The more that do, the more chance they may get around to calming the guards people, installing shared path signs, installing warnings around those solid black fencing, install required warnings around bollard and light poles stuck in the middle of marked shared paths, confirm the speed around this project (take the time to look at speed limit signs there are so many inconsistencies).

It is still early days for this project, so ride carefully.

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Troy C
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Troy C » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:25 am

The UCI Grando Fondo Qualifier at the start of March has its TT course go over the bridge.
Also the strava segments pic up the old riverside drive activity's on the segment
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nachoman
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby nachoman » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:18 pm

also this weekend:

City triathlon to take in Elizabeth Quay
Organisers of the City of Perth Triathlon are expecting a sell-out field of 1600 competitors for Sunday’s event after confirming the course will include parts of the Barrack Square attraction.

The swim leg will start in the inlet and the run will take in the footbridge in what is being dubbed the highlight of the course.

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SNAKE ®
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SNAKE ® » Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:22 pm

According to Strava, someone has already smashed a 54km/hr ride over the new bridge.
Although all the fast times were recorded before the Elizabeth quay was even built. lol
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wexford
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby wexford » Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:29 pm

I've got a pre-EQ Strava KOM that goes through that area. Hopefully it will remain mine forever now :-D

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ColinOldnCranky
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:28 am

cj7hawk wrote:
dmwill wrote:Was told to ride at walking pace this morning. Looked at Garmin, I was already doing 8km/h.

Try riding at walking pace, clipped in with walkers going in every direction.

A simple dividing line and keep left signs on the bridge might work to some extent.
Am I missing something here?

It's a shared path isn't is? And there's an established right for cyclists to use it right?

David
Yeah. And cars have an established right to use the Freeway when the Freeway Ride is on but they are still restricted otherwise on special occasions.

Though I do take your point. For a start those restrcitions relating to cars are publicly broadcast including under what authority they are made.

I wonder if those giving directions have any authority to give those directions. I suspect not. However I expect that if challenged they would soon call the cops who DO have sufficiently broad powers to direct and arrest as to make something stick.

It would certainly be interesting to challenge one of these people to state under what authority they are giving the directions. Certainly in the last couple of decades any penalty notices must state chapter and verse on them to have any legal effect. Mostly being temporary security people or similar I suspect that all they would know is who employed them for the gig and the orders, enforceable or otherwise, that were handed down to them.

Does anyone know who the controlling authority is on the Quay. I am guessing it comes under the City of Perth.
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rolandp
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby rolandp » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:39 am

Does anyone know who the controlling authority is on the Quay. I am guessing it comes under the City of Perth
MRA - they have their own Act which includes planning etc. The area will be handled to City of Perth at some point in the future.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Hugor » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:05 am

I went through there for the first time today at 6am. I really hope they build a path around this whole development.
Its too much of a major thoroughfare and the bridge is not appropriate for fast moving cycle traffic.
I think cycling on the bridge is probably not appropriate at anything above brisk walking pace.
I see there are idiots on strava already clocking 30km/hr across the bridge. They will cause all cycling to be banned from the area.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby NASHIE » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:34 pm

Hugor wrote: I see there are idiots on strava already clocking 30km/hr across the bridge. They will cause all cycling to be banned from the area.
Its only a matter of time IMO. I totally agree the route is not appropriate for bikes.

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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Scott_C » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:02 pm

Was down at the Quay today on foot and it looks like they have posted shared paths signs for the route around the quay (North/South on the path adjacent to William St, East/West along the path along the Esplanade and the North/South cycle lanes on Barrack St). With no dividing lines riders were still having to stop and dismount to wait for pedestrians to clear the path each time a train stopped at the train station and disgorged another blob of pedestrians walking 8 or 10 wide.

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SNAKE ®
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SNAKE ® » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:36 pm

Hugor wrote:I see there are idiots on strava already clocking 30km/hr across the bridge. They will cause all cycling to be banned from the area.
Fair point, but is it ok at 12.30am on a week night when there's no one around?
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dmwill
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby dmwill » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:30 am

SNAKE ® wrote:
Fair point, but is it ok at 12.30am on a week night when there's no one around?
Totally...I regularly head out late at night to set my KOMs.

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SNAKE ®
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby SNAKE ® » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:18 am

As I mentioned earlier, all the fast times through that area were done prior to the bridge construction anyways.
My point was more to do with time and place.
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Hugor
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Re: Elizabeth Quay almost opened

Postby Hugor » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:17 am

No I think that is since the bridge construction due to the title of the segment.

https://www.strava.com/segments/11316152?filter=overall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Each to their own. I'm not sure what belting across a pedestrian bridge proves but I guess its important to some people.

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