David, send this back to enquiries@mainroads.wa.gov.au to make sure that it is formally logged in Main Roads records, not just sitting in some employee's email inbox.cj7hawk wrote:Got a response from Main Roads over my complaint - It's not a good situation, and they've really screwed up. I think Main Roads absolutely deserves criticism for this -
So I sent back the following response;Good Afternoon David
Thank you for your email in relation to the temporary detour of the shared use path along the Graham Farmer Freeway between Lord St and East Parade.
This detour is necessary as we conduct pre works for future improvements to the intersection of Graham Farmer Freeway and East Parade. It was not possible to conduct these works and keep the path open without placing path users in a situation where they would be at risk of injury from the worksite or other path users. By closing the path and providing a temporary detour we are able to reduce the construction time for this work and the overall impact on path users. This decision was not taken lightly as we are aware that the path is used by a significant number of cyclists and pedestrians and was only agreed once all other options had been considered.
Prior notification of the work was placed on the route in the form of variable message signs and as soon as the detour and closure was confirmed our website was updated and an email sent via a number of significant cycling advisory groups for cascade to their members. The closure information and detour is available on our website under pedestrians and cyclists. I am aware that there have been some issues with the onsite detour signs which I understand are being rectified.
The detour that is signposted is the preferred detour and takes into consideration both cyclists and pedestrians. This detour minimises the additional travelling distance for path users and allows for cyclists to cross the railway line without needing to dismount from their bicycles. There are a number of other alternative routes which can be used and I am aware that there are a number of regular path users already utilising routes which are not the signposted detour.
The work will be completed on or before the 24th December 2015 and I will ensure that we update our website once a final completion date is known.
Many thanks for your feedback and please contact me if I can be of any further help
And what did I get back?Are you serious? I can only assume you have no idea then that you're asking bicycle riders to break the law?
According to the Road Traffic Code 2000, it's completely illegal to follow the detour you signposted and provided under WA law without dismounting six times! ( Unless you choose to walk most of the way )
I think Main Roads needs to read the Road Traffic Code 2000 and understand the impact you're having on cyclists with these detours.
Here is a photograph of the Intersection you first hit following the detour to illustrate the problem.
See that red-man light telling pedestrians whether to walk or not? That's what is used to mark a marked foot crossing. You can check that in the definitions section of the Road Traffic Code 2000.
Now please read Section 214 of the Road Traffic Code 2000.
214. No riding across road on crossing
(1) Subject to subregulation (2), the rider of a bicycle shall not ride across a carriageway, or part of a carriageway, on a children’s crossing, marked foot crossing or pedestrian crossing.
Modified penalty: 1 PU
(2) The rider of a bicycle may ride across a carriageway, or part of a carriageway, on a marked foot crossing if that crossing displays bicycle crossing lights and those lights are green.
Can you please advise me if you intend to install a suitable detour for bicycles? Or will we continue having to dismount six times in order to comply with WA laws?
Seriously, there seems to be a major disconnect between Main Roads, the WA Police and the Government, and unfortunately, cyclists bear the brunt of this. I know many cyclists are happy to break the laws, but it's a serious issue when they do and it causes PR problems for all cyclists - and the way Main Roads is designing roads forces many cyclists to cross some intersections on red lights for their own safety - And there are many intersections where you have marked foot crossings in the middle of a major cycle path - Which really leads me to wonder whether Main Roads even realize the dangers and problems you're creating for cyclists with these intersections?
It is a real problem that Main Roads designs cycling infrastructure so poorly that cyclists must dismount at nearly EVERY single intersection when riding on shared paths to comply with the law and generally, we have to fight with cars who have little intention to give way to a pedestrian pushing a bicycle - And now I understand from your response why this situation has occurred and I have to say I'm very disappointed in your apparent lack of knowledge of the road traffic code -
I understand from your reponse that you've contacted a number of cycling advisory groups for provision to their members, but the biggest source of cycling news did not receive any notification and is filled with criticism of Main Roads for making this particular blockage difficult to deal with. I would appreciate it if you could add me to your list then of cycling advocacy group as an individual advocate so that I can at least have a chance to warn my fellow cyclists in future, and perhaps provide some feedback on planned things such as detours, because it's clear that you did not get such feedback from any of your existing bicycling groups contacted - not that it was their responsibility to let you know the detour was illegal for cyclists - I still believe that's a Main Roads mistake.
So yes, please do provide the extra help that I have asked for - and please provide now the information on the detour so at least I can advise other cyclists who will be using this detour - I will personally repost this information to the forums.
BTW - you may want to check the criticism Main Roads has received over this particular incident - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=87346" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Note also - a cyclist was almost killed following your confusing detour signs.. It's all in the threads.
An automatic reply with the following;
I think Main Roads really screwed this one up, and it needs to be pressed or this will happen time and time again. I realize they have to improve our paths and all, but they don't seem to understand even the basics of the laws that affect cyclists and how this impacts us along with their poorly thought out plans and decisions -I am currenly out of the office and will return on 7th December 2015. I have limited access to emails and may not respond until then. This email has not been forwarded
David
East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby wellington_street » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:24 am
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby 1talian.steel » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:53 pm
The four weeks is a furphy; Main Roads' guidelines regarding provisions of paths at roadwork sites in built up areas identifies as 'long term' as anything more than one work shift. They are however taking the position that the signed detour is an 'adequate' replacement. Again, in reference to their guidelines they need to put in place a temporary replacement of the same standard.NewStew wrote:The cynical part of my brain would suggest that the reason it was scheduled to run for under 4 weeks was that according to Main Roads policies and procedures anything less than 4 weeks is a temporary diversion whereas anything longer is a long term diversion which requires them to put in place a detour of similar or close to similar standard as they have done with the two bridge replacements in Maylands and also the installation of the new Service Stations on the freeway down south..... so maybe they scheduled it short to justify the poor detour knowing that any accidental over-run would just have to be dealt with by path users (pedestrians and cyclists).cj7hawk wrote:Just a quick note to add - This is likely to take longer so could conceivably head off into the new year - If you read through Main Roads comments, they don't actually know when this will be finished, so 24th December is "wishful thinking" - not planning - and they still haven't put an end date up yet -
When they do, the end-date will be here. https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/UsingRo ... nance.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also personally I avoid going up East Parade and just stay on Kensington St and head down to the river, under Windan Bridge and then back that way. If it were not for the co-current work by the PTA closing part of the path at the end of Victory Terrace (forcing a off camber tight corner to be negotiated) the only issue would be riding through Claisebrook station which is crowded at times.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:09 pm
I saw several cyclists dodging cars this morning at that crossing. I am truly appalled at what Main Roads is doing here. So I took Wellington Street's suggestion and emailed them, and forwarded it on to Dean Nalder's office as well, since the more I think about this, the risk to cyclists is far greater than I imagined. We have no right of way under any circumstances on any of those roads - If there's any accidents, we are entirely at fault. It's a very shameful situation.1talian.steel wrote:The four weeks is a furphy; Main Roads' guidelines regarding provisions of paths at roadwork sites in built up areas identifies as 'long term' as anything more than one work shift. They are however taking the position that the signed detour is an 'adequate' replacement. Again, in reference to their guidelines they need to put in place a temporary replacement of the same standard.
I spoke then to the ministers office to ensure that it was received ( it was, and has been confirmed by both his electorate office and the cabinet office ) and that it is being reviewed ( it is ).
There is such a lack of due diligence here and foreseeable risk that it's clear gross negligence is present -Cyclists are heading across paths not suited to safe crossing and across which it is illegal for cyclists to cross. Yet every cyclist this morning I saw was breaking this law, unknowing that it was illegal, and trusting that main roads got it right. I pointed out to main roads that they would be potentially liable for any accidents because of this and suggested that they immediately install cycle crossing lights, or "bicycles permitted" signs, or install appropriate separation and partition the road so that it can be used to safe transit.
It's one thing to have these as situations we all face in day to day riding. It's another thing when these dangers are forced on unsuspecting people who may never normally ride through such dangers and may not be aware they have no right of way whatsoever on the detour path.
I hadn't really focused on it before, but I too was nearly cleaned up by a car failing to give way as I crossed on a green light at the lights-only intersection. I too trusted their detour more than I should have - Unfortunately, this only stokes my umbrage when I'd prefer to be tackling this without feeling personally wronged.
My last call was to Dean Roberts who is the head of PR and Media Relations at Main Roads. I emailed him directly with my last response also -
Here is a copy of the policy for path users with respect to closures at Main Roads - Main Roads seems to have missed this entirely -
https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/Documen ... 204999.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby flashpixx » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:37 pm
I don't get why, if you are aware that it isn't safe, that you continue to use it. (I use "you" as in the Royal you, not any particlular person or person/s)
It's a bit like "I'll show them buggers at Main Roads, I'll get myself killed, that'll show 'em it's jolly well dangerous..."
When does the use of common sense get over ridden by the need to make a point.
Don't want to make light of the issue, but when I saw the proposed detour my first thought was... "I'm not using that, I'll find a safer way"
Perhaps I'm just old and cynical and have lost my will to challenge authority....
Good luck with the comms with the many levels of Gov't
Riding: Trek Domane SLR 7
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:52 pm
Hi Flashpix,flashpixx wrote:I get all the furore regarding the lack of a safe detour. I also get that for the irregular user, coming across this detour for the first time isn't the best experience.
It's not just about a safe detour. It's about a legal detour. The detour as provided is not legal for cyclists to follow. ONLY for pedestrians.
As I mentioned, I very nearly got hit by a car while following the detour - I know the laws better than most, but it's difficult to remember that not all green lights are OK when you're looking for nearly non-existent detour signs, and finding your way through an unfamiliar route.
I don't know if you take that route ( you're in the right area ) but it' not like there are other options - The freeway closes off one direction and the train line the other, with the Swan River completing the isolation. We know train line overpasses are challenges for cycles, especially the transperth guards, and wheeling 20kg of cycle down the steep platforms isn't fun either. Hopefully my brakes will keep working
It wouldn't be difficult for Main Roads to establish a safe, legal path for cyclists. They do have policies and guidelines for that, and in this case, they have completely ignored them.
There's a reason that cycling is so dangerous in Perth. Only a small part of that is motorists. Most of it is the result of actions by the WA Police who don't take cycling safety seriously (and so encourage bad driving) and Main Roads who create unsafe situations for us to be in, in the first place. If we don't push them to do the right thing and keep ALL users of roads/paths in mind, they will always see putting cyclists out instead of motorists as the easy path to take. We need to hold them accountable each and every time they are unreasonable. Especially so when they screw up big-time as they have, making snap decisions with just a week's notice to make major cycle path changes.
And in this case, they've also left cyclists exposed to danger. All it would have taken is putting in a cycle crossing in the first place. It's not a big ask is it? Or a proper cycle path detour, as per their guidelines.
Well, hopefully no one will be killed - and no one rides expecting to be killed, but there's an awful lot of cyclists go out just trying to ride to work who end up just another statistic
So I do think this matter is worth kicking up about. I'll let you know how I go -
Regards
David.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby rolandp » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:35 pm
And the get of jail card for MainRoads, which is contained in the preface to the document you have linked to:cj7hawk wrote:1talian.steel wrote:The four weeks is a furphy; Main Roads' guidelines regarding provisions of paths at roadwork sites in built up areas identifies as 'long term' as anything more than one work shift. :..................
Here is a copy of the policy for path users with respect to closures at Main Roads - Main Roads seems to have missed this entirely -
https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/Documen ... 204999.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David.
This set of guidelines has been prepared to provide guidance for personnel engaged in roadworks in built-up areas. It is applicable to both short-term and long-term works on all types of urban roads other than freeways.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this work is occurring against a freeway.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby softy » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:23 pm
As soon as there is a traffic light it is not a freeway, and adjacent to the PSP that has been dug up is the traffic light to East parade.
The detour is a joke, i would never use it. Going to east perth train station then walking your bike over the footbridge is safer and probably quicker.
I have seen some excellent detours when work has happened on PSPs, but this is not one of them.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:35 am
Yes, this is not a freeway - it's more that the freeway blocks any other path that we might have, so the bridge over the freeway in question is the only way across and there's a dedicated foot/cycle bridge that is normally preferred but has been blocked off. We can't go east of the bridge because a river blocks us and we can't go west of the bridge because a train line blocks us. This is the main path into Perth for all cylists north-east of Perth. It's also the only path into Perth for us to use, without making lengthy detours through areas that have no significant cycling infrastructure to speak of.softy wrote:Wrong,
As soon as there is a traffic light it is not a freeway, and adjacent to the PSP that has been dug up is the traffic light to East parade.
The detour is a joke, i would never use it. Going to east perth train station then walking your bike over the footbridge is safer and probably quicker.
I have seen some excellent detours when work has happened on PSPs, but this is not one of them.
It would be trivial for main roads to do the right thing and install a suitable detour, but the isolation of the intersection affects them too -so it appears that it's more convenient for them to compromise the safety and options of cyclists instead of putting in a suitable detour.
Main Roads guidelines are specifically written so they can't go screwing over minority groups, but I guess they want to push this work forward and don't have the stomach to interfere with the road traffic in the area.
Given the choices main roads is making here to destroy safe transit for an entire sector of Perth over inconveniencing a single wealthy suburb for a few weeks I can't help but wonder if there are some other interests at play here - Did I mention that the Main Roads head office is also in this area? I imagine that a lot of important decision-making Main-Roads employees would also be inconvenienced by a few minutes getting to work if the only clear road into their building lost a lane so that they followed their own departmental policies.
David.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby flashpixx » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:02 pm
Hi Davidcj7hawk wrote:I don't know if you take that route ( you're in the right area ) but it' not like there are other options -
So I do think this matter is worth kicking up about. I'll let you know how I go -
Regards
David.
Yes I am in the area and use the now closed section of the PSP. Instead of taking the "recommended detour" I now continue on towards Windan Bridge past the detour up to East Parade and veer left off the PSP down to the river, turn right ride along the river (has an adequate sealed path) and exit at Claisebrook Cove. Can then head to Claisebrook Station. It adds about 10 minutes to the ride but is so much safer than trying to negotiate East Parade at peak hour.
Yes I do think it is worthy of follow up, I'm just amazed that anyone would actually choose to take the detour as it currently exists.
cheers Gordon
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby softy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:48 pm
I would like to remind cyclists riding over this foot bridge it is hazardous, especially on the 180 degree turns with peds around, there is also advisory signs posted, requesting cyclists to dismount. It has nothing to do with being "lazy" if you may be reading this.
I would just like to say, we expect motorist to respect us as road uses, lets respect peds, especially when we enter areas specifically for there use (and sign posted)
Cheers.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby wellington_street » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:30 pm
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:08 am
Main Roads have now acknowledged that the original detour was poorly put together and claim to have taken action to address this now ( I'll check later this week ) though it's still well below the standard it should be.
Just to cover the lines of inquiry that struck Main Roads out of this;
1. Main Roads. Several complaints via Web Form.
2. Escalated to the head of PR/Media at main roads.
3. Escalated to the Ministers office, still being reviewed by a policy advisor, including allegations that the route was illegal for cyclists to follow.
4. Escalated to the RSC - They can't take action, but did look into the detour and went out to see it. RSC is closely connected to Main Roads. RSC also suggested getting Jeremey Murray's help on this matter.
5. Escalated to the BWA - Thanks to Jeremey Murray for chasing this up - he did a lot to escalated this matter within MRD. Jeremey is the CEO of BWA.
Main Roads response was a little weak, and as I understand it, they blamed the contractors for putting up the signs incorrectly. If nothing else, I think they realize that quite a few of us will get off our backsides and raise heck if they ever try something like this again, which was essentially our main objective. On other matters, it's believed that it might be back to normal by the 21st or even sooner - so some good news there.
And again, thanks to Jeremey Murray for his help in chasing this up - I doubt they'll do anything to fix the detour completely, but at least they know we're watching what they do in future. I know there's some controversy around BWA, but their insurance is pretty good and quite cheap and they are the main recognized advocate of cycling in WA at this time. Membership is worth considering.
Regards
David
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby rolandp » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:41 am
Prior notification of the work was placed on the route in the form of variable message signs and as soon as the detour and closure was confirmed our website was updated and an email sent via a number of significant cycling advisory groups for cascade to their members
One would assume this included BWA.
This was then escalated to BWA via a forum member this week:
Escalated to the BWA - Thanks to Jeremey Murray for chasing this up - he did a lot to escalated this matter within MRD. Jeremey is the CEO of BWA.
If BWA had been advised of this closure as per the information from MainRoads, why didn't they take immediate action to correct? We wouldn't be in this 'pickle' if action had occurred when they were notified (assuming they were).
As an additional observation, a section of the RSP along Riverside Drive is also closed, so if you are taking the long route via the river/causeway you have additional closure, where we are instructed to dismantle, and walk. I just jumped onto the Riverside Dr, but that's not the solution, alternatives are meant to be provided when paths are closed for ALL users.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:33 am
rolandp wrote:I'm a little confused. From a earlier response from MainRoads:
Prior notification of the work was placed on the route in the form of variable message signs and as soon as the detour and closure was confirmed our website was updated and an email sent via a number of significant cycling advisory groups for cascade to their members
One would assume this included BWA.
This was then escalated to BWA via a forum member this week:
Escalated to the BWA - Thanks to Jeremey Murray for chasing this up - he did a lot to escalated this matter within MRD. Jeremey is the CEO of BWA.
If BWA had been advised of this closure as per the information from MainRoads, why didn't they take immediate action to correct? We wouldn't be in this 'pickle' if action had occurred when they were notified (assuming they were).
As an additional observation, a section of the RSP along Riverside Drive is also closed, so if you are taking the long route via the river/causeway you have additional closure, where we are instructed to dismantle, and walk. I just jumped onto the Riverside Dr, but that's not the solution, alternatives are meant to be provided when paths are closed for ALL users.
I'm not defending the actions taken by Main Roads, but an improvement in the signage might be the most they'll do in this instance, short of a significant protest with large numbers behind it - I know they won't care much if it's just me out there with a sign...
Keep in mind that the Minister's office is still investigating and I'll be chasing that up several times as this progresses. It's not over, but I think the original objective was to make sure Main Roads doesn't think that taking away paths and providing detours like this is acceptable.
I spoke to BWA about the "notice" they received, and it seems they got an email on the Friday before it happened - so zero-business-days notice. They did apparently spread news via social media to a few members, but did not include it in communications to members as by the time the next communications went out, it would have been in place a week already -
It's easy in retrospect to wonder why such an important communication as "Main Roads have botched the detour" didn't go out as a special communication, but keep in mind that until I spoke to them, BWA had no idea the site detour was botched. While several advocates had noted that things didn't seem all that good, none had actually gone to the extent of checking and riding the detour and all trusted Main Roads had done it's job... So the first they knew that something was wrong was my email to them. So while they did clarify Main Roads did provide notice, I think we can all see the blame for the lack of effective or even acceptable notification to any advocacy group still rests entirely with Main Roads.
Personally, I still have a few questions for Main Roads, who have not yet responded to me, but I'm not going to stick my nose up at BWA's efforts either - If they are asking questions, Main Roads is going to take notice. Far more than if it's just me, or individuals on this board. And Jeremey has been the first person to gain any traction on getting things improved a little - don't forget, I've been pushing against this for a week already and hadn't achieved that - so I am quite thankful to him.
I know there's questions about the advocacy role being played by BWA with respect to cyclists, but in the two times I've met Jeremey, he's been very helpful and seems entirely supportive of cyclists rights under WA laws.
Regards
David
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby NewStew » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:47 am
The biggest thing I have noticed on my commute is how much less pedestrian and cycle traffic there is on the paths with the works happening in spite of the so called appropriate detour, seems pedestrians and cyclists have spoken with their feet and are probably driving to work - just shows how committed Main Roads and their responsible department is to alternate modes of transport to the private motor vehicle.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby 1talian.steel » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:32 am
Like you, I have used the web form, written to their PR manager, written to the Minister, and also written to Vincent (as the PSP is in their jurisdiction, they are in the position to write an "Official Complaint").
One of my major concerns regarding the detour is for cyclists heading out of Perth along Kensington St in the afternoon rush hour (I come in the opposite direction): I have seen traffic banked up to the corner of Fielder and Kensington St, this is a narrow street with cars parked on the north/railway side and I do not believe there is enough space between the vehicles and parked cars for cyclists to safely navigate - if someone is able to get some photos of this, it would be good to forward to Main Roads as additional evidence of the inadequate nature of the detour.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby Lozzie » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:14 pm
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:37 am
Makes me wonder whether we should arrange a "claim the lane" protest at some future MRD screwup where they don't follow their own guidelines like this? I'm pretty sure a group of cyclists threatening such a protest that would disrupt traffic severely would gain enough media attention that the MRD would probably put a better effort in in future to do it right.
It worked in Sanfrancisco -
David.
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby nachoman » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:02 pm
They have certainly spared no expense with the signagecj7hawk wrote:I checked the route - there appear two new signs
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:49 pm
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby softy » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:04 am
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby Lozzie » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:49 am
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby wellington_street » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:43 am
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby cj7hawk » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:48 am
I think what this highlights is that cyclists will follow main roads advice, and choose another path - and the bridge is the only reasonable alternative to the main-roads mistake-of-a-detour.Lozzie wrote:Well yes because it's not safe. They've had guards there all last week. It's really not a good look that cyclists are still ignoring it.
The other path requires 6 legal dismounts, over no dismounts for the East Perth bridge. Even if it looks bad, it's not illegal to ride over the train bridge - Cyclists Dismount signs have no legal standing. It's purely advisory.
Safe or not, on the bridge, it's still safer than riding across at the lights on the authorized detour. Although I agree it's better to dismount and walk it when there's pedestrians present, at other times there's no reason not to ride over at all.
The most worrying aspect of this entire incident is that Transperth knew weeks in advance and was able to put up signs. On the other hand, cycling organisations got no advance warning whatsoever.
David
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Re: East Perth PSP works - 23rd November
Postby Lozzie » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:49 pm
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The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.
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