When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
- Thoglette
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When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Thoglette » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:40 pm
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Wixxy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:53 pm
It may contain reference to your question.
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Scott_C » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:39 pm
The Road Traffic (Administration) Act defines a "road" as, "road means any highway, road or street open to, or used by, the public and includes every carriageway, footway, reservation, median strip and traffic island on it;"Thoglette wrote:With many more laneways and lanes being sealed and signposted, at what point do they become "roads". Where can one find out which of the roads and laneways are "roads" and which are council property?
Highway or street aren't further defined so they don't offer much guidance in where to draw a line between a street and a lane. Nor does whether it is on private or Government property. In previous discussions I have had the "open to, or used by, the public" section of the definition seems to be where the difference lies. The presence of an access gate or any other form of access control allowing the lane to be restricted would argue against it being classified as a road, similarly, I would argue that if the lane does not offer a through route nor a turn-around location outside of private property then it isn't suitable for use by the public and therefore isn't a road.
For what it is worth, I have been told that closing access to the public at least once a year prevents a private accessway from being classified as a road
Another approach might be to determine if the lane meets the minimum criteria for a road in the Austroads Guidelines, if it doesn't comply then it could be argued that it doesn't meet the common definition for a road.
Unfortunately I don't think you are going to get a satisfactory answer to the question without access to prior judicial decisions in WA as that is the only place where a clear definition could be developed when the definition is the legislation is so fuzzy.
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Graeme H » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:43 am
https://mrapps.mainroads.wa.gov.au/publicmaps/rim
In the older suburbs that have night cart lanes between back yards, many of which are numbered "Right of Way n" rather than named "Something Lane", all such lanes that I can find are classified by MRWA as "Access Road" as well as being identified as "Laneway" in the special use category.
Another clue is to look turn on the "property information" layer in this tool:
https://maps.slip.wa.gov.au/landgate/locate/
to see whether the lane is located within private property, or has its own cadastral reserve.
- Warin
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Warin » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:37 am
1) Who owns it ... is it 'public property'? If 'public property' then the public may have access rights to it (exceptions exist - Defence property springs to mind).
2) Do the 'road rules' apply? Even if the 'property is private' the 'road rules' may apply (a 'public' car park in a shopping centre), or not (a race track).
So .. the answer will depend on the actual question - the question presented does not have enough detail, so the answer could be 42.
- Thoglette
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Thoglette » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:32 am
I'm interested in an answer in the context of the Road Traffic Code 2000.Warin wrote: So .. the answer will depend on the actual question - the question presented does not have enough detail, so the answer could be 42.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
- Warin
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Warin » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:06 pm
If used by the public then I'd think the Road Traffic Code applies.Thoglette wrote:I'm interested in an answer in the context of the Road Traffic Code 2000.Warin wrote: So .. the answer will depend on the actual question - the question presented does not have enough detail, so the answer could be 42.
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby citywomble » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:03 pm
For example, where a laneway exists as a common right of way to properties it is 'open' to the public by virtue of providing right of way access to properties. This right of way, however, might well at one time have existed on title even if presently 'owned' by a residual owner or transferred to the Local Government Authority (LGA). This would be subject to private land ownership and/or local laws and could be gated or closed if all interested parties agreed. Under these circumstances the owner(s) or LGA would be responsible for the rules and could apply regulatory signage.
When made up to an appropriate standard then this could be offered up for 'adoption' as a gazetted road. Once the road is formally gazetted then private owner, or LGA, regulatory signage could not be applied (would be illegal) and Main Roads WA would be the only agency authorised to install regulatory signs to control traffic. For the RTC 2000 to apply does, I believe, require MRWA to be the regulatory body.
- Thoglette
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Thoglette » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:29 pm
Ah, that sounds familiar but I couldn't put my finger on the legislation. The question is then: when do they get gazetted? Particularly with, as happens in older suburbs, old rights-of-way get sealed and named (think Pingrup lane in Scarborough and Double view). Or get the hipster treatment (think Wolf Lane in the CBD). Then there's old laneways that are defacto roads (like Merchantile lane in the CBD).citywomble wrote:While I cannot be definitive, my understanding is that the Road Traffic Code 2000 would only apply to a Gazetted Road.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
- Warin
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Warin » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:03 pm
Parking aisles in Coles/Woolworths are not gazetted roads... but the road rules apply there. The words "used by the public" come into play here. The 'use' does not have to be a legal use ... in other words they could book you (if you had a party on someone else's land as a group of people) not only for being on 'private property' but also under the road rules for being drunk etc.citywomble wrote:While I cannot be definitive, my understanding is that the Road Traffic Code 2000 would only apply to a Gazetted Road.
If you want a real legal opinion ... pay for it locally. What you get here are ideas that can be wrong.
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Rights of way may already be gazetted ... you might have to go back a far way to find them!
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Graeme H » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:12 pm
Those are all roads. They are classified by MRWA as Access Roads (the same as most normal residential streets).Thoglette wrote:Particularly with, as happens in older suburbs, old rights-of-way get sealed and named (think Pingrup lane in Scarborough and Double view). Or get the hipster treatment (think Wolf Lane in the CBD). Then there's old laneways that are defacto roads (like Merchantile lane in the CBD).
Pingrup and Wolf are also designated Laneways but Mercantile is not.
In contrast, look at Bishop St in Morley west of Progress St. It looks and feels like a road but MRWA doesn't map it - it's just a part of the shopping centre carpark.
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Graeme H » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:16 pm
Are you certain of that? Back when I got my licence the road rules did not apply in trafficable private land like shopping centre carparks, but that was a long time ago now.Warin wrote:Parking aisles in Coles/Woolworths are not gazetted roads... but the road rules apply there.
I reckon it's generally appropriate to behave as if they do, whether or not it's technically the case.
- Thoglette
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Re: When is a lane a roadway and when is it not?
Postby Thoglette » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:30 pm
Not quite correct. There is a very small number of rules which are applied to "road like areas" - it is one of a small number of areas where the Road Rules go off the road (if you'll excuse the pun).Warin wrote:Parking aisles in Coles/Woolworths are not gazetted roads... but the road rules apply there.!
Again, I can't find the damn section number. I remember looking it up re: the discussion on shared paths once they move off the gazetted roadway and into council territory
OBTW it is now an offence to not lock your car when you park it. Apparently parking is now a police matter.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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