The brown vinegar trick

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mark field
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby mark field » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:28 pm

ldrcycles wrote:What would be the best way to de rust something that you can't dip? I have a bike with Shimano Positron and i'm deathly afraid of attempting to disassemble the front freewheel arrangement to sort out the rust on the crank arms. Any ideas?
if you go back through the thread you will see the SUNTOUR accushift derailleur i cleaned up as good as new, it was a mix of alloy, spring steel, and chrome and it was completely immersed in the Ranex with no problems other than the alloy lost its shine which was easily restored with some polish. I would suggest not leaving something in Ranex for an hour but preferebly in 10 minuite blocks, then taking out and rinsing and repeat until you are satisfied or dilute it with water if you want to soak and leave it for longer. whatever you do please post some pics for us!!
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HappyHumber
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:31 pm

ldrcycles wrote:What would be the best way to de rust something that you can't dip? I have a bike with Shimano Positron and i'm deathly afraid of attempting to disassemble the front freewheel arrangement to sort out the rust on the crank arms. Any ideas?
By the "front freewheel" I take it you mean the cranks & chain rings?

It's more the old solid core positron shifter cables you've got to worry about with that set up. They become and old brittle, and I don't think anyone has ever cared enough for the positron system to make replacement cables for them.

I think you'd be kidding yourself that you can clean up a part effectively withouth disassembling it first from the frame. Aside from paint stripping or staining, you'd also be likely destroying the properties of the grease in the bottom bracket at the very least.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:52 pm

HappyHumber wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:What would be the best way to de rust something that you can't dip? I have a bike with Shimano Positron and i'm deathly afraid of attempting to disassemble the front freewheel arrangement to sort out the rust on the crank arms. Any ideas?
By the "front freewheel" I take it you mean the cranks & chain rings?

It's more the old solid core positron shifter cables you've got to worry about with that set up. They become and old brittle, and I don't think anyone has ever cared enough for the positron system to make replacement cables for them.

I think you'd be kidding yourself that you can clean up a part effectively withouth disassembling it first from the frame. Aside from paint stripping or staining, you'd also be likely destroying the properties of the grease in the bottom bracket at the very least.
Quite agree with Kym re dissembly and cleaning but just a thought, you don't meanthat you have got one of those 'Shimano Front Freewheel System" gearsets that Shimano produced where the freewheel really was built into the crankset? This video demos it with a low-end model, you could get alloy crank versions too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOyiDEFjE5w
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ldrcycles
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:09 pm

Thanks for the replies, to clear it up, yes i mean the cranks where the chainrings keep rotating when you coast (which looks very weird). I have absolutely no idea how to take it apart and i think i remember reading somewhere that it was a difficult thing to do, with specific tools required.
HappyHumber wrote: It's more the old solid core positron shifter cables you've got to worry about with that set up. They become and old brittle, and I don't think anyone has ever cared enough for the positron system to make replacement cables for them.

you'd also be likely destroying the properties of the grease in the bottom bracket at the very least.
Hadn't thought of the grease issue, but that would of course be a problem. I didn't know the cables were different, i haven't really looked at them but they didn't jump out at me as being unusual. They are pretty rusty so might not be salvageable. If it makes a difference, the RD is labelled Positron II. These bits are on a National Matsushita Electric ladies bike, the frame is in very good condition so even if i can't get the Positron stuff working i can always throw some normal gear on it. I should be able to get some pics up tomorrow night, getting teeth pulled tonight so will be out of action.
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maccayak
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby maccayak » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:41 am

What about whole 27inch wheels? Do you put them in a large container and just keep rotating?

Geoff

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WyvernRH
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:45 am

ldrcycles wrote:Thanks for the replies, to clear it up, yes i mean the cranks where the chainrings keep rotating when you coast (which looks very weird). I have absolutely no idea how to take it apart and i think i remember reading somewhere that it was a difficult thing to do, with specific tools required.
Wow! Haven't seen one of those for decades! IRRC (if you have the alloy version) the cranks came off with a standard puller and the tricky freewheel bit stayed attached to the bottom bracket.
This picture seems to confirm that http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/images/35.jpg
If you have the cottered steel version you are flying solo I'm afraid :wink:
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ldrcycles
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:45 pm

Thanks for that link, was just what i needed to get over my fear and have a go. I know this is a bit OT but it's pretty interesting.

So the crank arms are steel but they come off as per ordinary cotterless cranks. I was very surprised to find they are actually a very small splined spindle, not square taper. I haven't tried to remove the BB/chainring/front freewheel but it looks as though it would undo on the non drive side and then pull out. And the date codes are 1984.

Image

Image

And just out of interest, this pic shows the notches on the Positron II rear derailleur which provide the indexing, unlike SIS which has the clicks in the shifter.

Image

And another interesting one, a Sachs Huret Commander on a Puch ladies bike i am about to restore, which also has notches on the derailleur (although the engagement is VERY different, once i have it complete i will take a video to show), strangely this one has clicks in the shifter as well.

Image
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ldrcycles
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:48 pm

Oh and my sincere apologies for the awful photos, i haven't got a proper camera so i was juggling my mobile phone and magicshine to try and get photos which at least showed what i wanted.
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elStado
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby elStado » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:17 pm

matt1986 wrote:I'd consequently recommend caution when using Ranex on components with anodised parts. If you're interested in stripping off an anodised finish, I find that a mild solution of caustic soda (oven cleaner) does the trick. Here are the before and after photos of a stem I bathed in a solution of caustic soda (2 tablespoons of caustic soda crystals to approx. 1 litre of cold water) and gently scrubbed with fine steel wool. It still requires further polishing at this stage, but will shine up nicely.

Image
Image
I have an after-market 3ttt stem on my Raleigh that I want to use, but it is black like that Merckx stem was and I want to go for a more original polish alloy look.

The results are fantastic. Did you do much cleaning and polishing after stripping the anodising off?

Does this sound right:
1. Soak in the CS mix for X? amount of time until ready).
2. Gently scrub off remaining anodising with fine steel wool.
3. Hit it with 600/800(?) then 1200 grit w&d (using soapy water or running water).
4. Finally, polish using Autosol et al

I'm still trying to find out if the special aluminium Autosol is worth it, as I tried using the regular metal Autosol today on an alloy crank and it seemed to work fine.
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Ferrovelo
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby Ferrovelo » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:13 pm

I havnt tried using CS but I've read that it works. Personally I've just sanded (w&d) throught the anodising. As for the polishing, yep as you have noted. If you have a buffing wheel on a bench grinder and some polishing compound (like tripoli) you can speed up the process. I've made a few notes about polishing here. http://ajsblogcycle.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... frame.html

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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby elStado » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:47 pm

Been soaking some rusted rear dropouts on an old steel Ricardo frame for about 24 hours. Just pulled it out and gave it a light scrub with some steel wool, looking pretty good but still some rust left over.

Will let it soak for another day and see what it looks like. Took before photos so I can compare it.

Also bought a small container of Ranex today to derust some surface spots on my Raleigh frame. Quite expensive though, about ~$40 a litre.
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mark field
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby mark field » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:39 pm

elStado wrote:Been soaking some rusted rear dropouts on an old steel Ricardo frame for about 24 hours. Just pulled it out and gave it a light scrub with some steel wool, looking pretty good but still some rust left over.

Will let it soak for another day and see what it looks like. Took before photos so I can compare it.

Also bought a small container of Ranex today to derust some surface spots on my Raleigh frame. Quite expensive though, about ~$40 a litre.

dump your rear dropouts in the ranex, that will speed up the process a bit. The Ranex is a bit expensive but it can be used time and time again.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby munga » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:45 pm

HCl is pretty cheap. potentially a bit more dangerous than ranex, but we're all big boys and girls.

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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby elStado » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:20 pm

mark field wrote:dump your rear dropouts in the ranex, that will speed up the process a bit. The Ranex is a bit expensive but it can be used time and time again.
Ah, I didn't realise it could be re-used. I'll try dropping the other rusted dropout in the Ranex for a comparison against the white vinegar I used on the other.

Before:
Image

After soaking for 48 hours and a light scrub with some steel wool:
Image

Not bad for something that only costs a couple of bucks for a 2l container.

Can be re-used a few times too. I just let it settle and then drained the vinegar back into the bottle before washing out the remaining crud.

Apparently cola and lemon juice are also pretty effective rust removers. Lemon juice would be too much work even if you had a big tree, but cola is sometimes cheaper per litre than vinegar.

Worth a try.

Anyone tried removing rust using electrolysis?

http://www.chip.com/buick/techtips/rustremoval.html
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mark field
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby mark field » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:01 pm

well done for posting those pics, it really hits home the effectiveness of the brown vinegar, rust removal with no effort and a nice etched surface that is perfect for painting. cant beat it.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby elStado » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:31 pm

mark field wrote:well done for posting those pics, it really hits home the effectiveness of the brown vinegar, rust removal with no effort and a nice etched surface that is perfect for painting. cant beat it.
I used white vinegar :)

Does it just remove the rust, or does it also neutralise it? I remember reading somewhere that the chemical reaction caused by the vinegar will prevent future rust as well as removing it.

And then there's this factor:
Vinegar is acetic acid. After removing the rust, it will continue to slowly eat away at the part. It will also leave the part with a "pickled" or weathered look. As such, you must be careful if you're using vinegar (or any acid) to remove rust from parts that aren't destined to be painted.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby brasstinman » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:56 am

I heard Coke is a good rust remover, my dad said they used to use it to clean up old coins and bits in the garage when he was a kid. Probably why I don't drink Coke. :)

It would be interesting to see how Coke compares to brown vinegar.

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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby mark field » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:41 am

brasstinman wrote:I heard Coke is a good rust remover, my dad said they used to use it to clean up old coins and bits in the garage when he was a kid. Probably why I don't drink Coke. :)

It would be interesting to see how Coke compares to brown vinegar.
theres an episode of mythbusters that trialled coke for that, ill see if i can find it. i never drink the stuff either but i recon brown vinegar on a salad is better than coke on a salad, and a nice tall glass of ice cold brown vinegar with ice wont hold up as well on a summers day as coke :lol: :lol:
when i was young some mates and i were walking past an old guy who was tipping a can of coke onto his driveway, all four of us just stopped and quietly watched as we were contemplating what his problem was, he looked up at us and casually said "gets rid of oil stains, better on the driveway than in your stomach" we said nothing and walked off...... to 7-11 for a coke slurpee. kids will never listen.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby maccayak » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:25 pm

I went to Bunnings to get some Ranex, everyone must have been reading this forum because they only had jumbo containers left, but they had this stuff the lady said was the same called white knight rust converter. I bought some and dropped some rusty clips and a crappy looking front derailieur in it. Two hours later, they came out looking brand new without any polishing. I did not take before and after photos because I was not too confident.

I am currently doing two 80's racers at the same time, a really small framed National for my son and a larger Centurion for me. Trying to teach my son about bikes. These days kids just get it to easy! Anyway, this stuff will help keep costs down as I can re use a lot of stuff> Thanks Mark and others for your tips.

Geoff

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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby elStado » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:36 pm

maccayak wrote:I went to Bunnings to get some Ranex, everyone must have been reading this forum because they only had jumbo containers left, but they had this stuff the lady said was the same called white knight rust converter. I bought some and dropped some rusty clips and a crappy looking front derailieur in it. Two hours later, they came out looking brand new without any polishing. I did not take before and after photos because I was not too confident.
Well next time you de-rust some parts can you do before-after pics, as well as an accurate count on how long you had to soak it.

I also saw the White Knight stuff, but skipped over it as I'd heard of the Ranex before and knew it would perform.
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Ferrovelo
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby Ferrovelo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:33 pm

If you can't find Ranex, there's another brand of this stuff that bunnings sell called 'rust-off'. From memory it was about either $12 or $17 for a litre. (although googling just now I see that you can get 5L*** for $20 at whitworths marine)
***[EDIT, my bad, its 1L for $20, so nothing special about that price]

Its 30-60% phospohroic acid , Ranex is 10-35% phosphoric acid. So they both have the same active indgredient, with the rust-off is being potentially a little more for your money (depending on what Ranex costs?) as the instructions are to dilute with water anyway.
I can confirm it works well.
http://www.chemtech.net.au/cne_rustoff.html
Last edited by Ferrovelo on Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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mark field
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby mark field » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:40 pm

amrjon wrote:If you can't find Ranex, there's another brand of this stuff that bunnings sell called 'rust-off'. From memory it was about either $12 or $17 for a litre. (although googling just now I see that you can get 5L for $20 at whitworths marine)
Its 30-60% phospohroic acid , Ranex is 10-35% phosphoric acid. So they both have the same active indgredient, with the rust-off is being potentially a little more for your money (depending on what Ranex costs?) as the instructions are to dilute with water anyway.
I can confirm it works well.
http://www.chemtech.net.au/cne_rustoff.html
Whitworths marine, is that the one on Victoria rd Gladesville ?
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Ferrovelo
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby Ferrovelo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:56 pm

https://www.whitworths.com.au/customer_ ... 120&ID=118

or just buy an onion apparrently?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQd6navSSw0 "...works on bicycles..."
Don't you just love the interwebs!

Hmm, not sure about that one. The rust-off (and I assume Ranex is just the same) is good stuff though. I'd previously been using oxalic acid but I now prefer this - none of the yellow deposit to clean off that you can get a little bit of with the oxalic acid.

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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby jbchybridrider » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:58 pm

Here's a perplexing one, I have this seat post I thought was steel but when removed from the bike I noticed how thick the tubing is and it's very light.
So it must be alloy with some kind of coating. The thing is how did it rust like this.
It's never been inserted right down in the frame so there's been no reaction with the frame tubing.
I've had it soaking in brown vinegar for four days but there's been no effect whatsoever, so I'm stumped on this one and I don't want to ruin the metal look coating sanding it off. Any suggestions.
Image

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Ferrovelo
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Re: The brown vinegar trick

Postby Ferrovelo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:02 pm

Doh, I just checked and looks like that was 1L for $20 at whitworths marine site, not 5L.
I must have miss-read it. Sorry, I'll edit my post above too.

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