if you go back through the thread you will see the SUNTOUR accushift derailleur i cleaned up as good as new, it was a mix of alloy, spring steel, and chrome and it was completely immersed in the Ranex with no problems other than the alloy lost its shine which was easily restored with some polish. I would suggest not leaving something in Ranex for an hour but preferebly in 10 minuite blocks, then taking out and rinsing and repeat until you are satisfied or dilute it with water if you want to soak and leave it for longer. whatever you do please post some pics for us!!ldrcycles wrote:What would be the best way to de rust something that you can't dip? I have a bike with Shimano Positron and i'm deathly afraid of attempting to disassemble the front freewheel arrangement to sort out the rust on the crank arms. Any ideas?
The brown vinegar trick
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby mark field » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:28 pm
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby HappyHumber » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:31 pm
By the "front freewheel" I take it you mean the cranks & chain rings?ldrcycles wrote:What would be the best way to de rust something that you can't dip? I have a bike with Shimano Positron and i'm deathly afraid of attempting to disassemble the front freewheel arrangement to sort out the rust on the crank arms. Any ideas?
It's more the old solid core positron shifter cables you've got to worry about with that set up. They become and old brittle, and I don't think anyone has ever cared enough for the positron system to make replacement cables for them.
I think you'd be kidding yourself that you can clean up a part effectively withouth disassembling it first from the frame. Aside from paint stripping or staining, you'd also be likely destroying the properties of the grease in the bottom bracket at the very least.
Hit me up via the BNA dm; I'll get an alert. If y'know, you know.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby WyvernRH » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:52 pm
Quite agree with Kym re dissembly and cleaning but just a thought, you don't meanthat you have got one of those 'Shimano Front Freewheel System" gearsets that Shimano produced where the freewheel really was built into the crankset? This video demos it with a low-end model, you could get alloy crank versions too.HappyHumber wrote:By the "front freewheel" I take it you mean the cranks & chain rings?ldrcycles wrote:What would be the best way to de rust something that you can't dip? I have a bike with Shimano Positron and i'm deathly afraid of attempting to disassemble the front freewheel arrangement to sort out the rust on the crank arms. Any ideas?
It's more the old solid core positron shifter cables you've got to worry about with that set up. They become and old brittle, and I don't think anyone has ever cared enough for the positron system to make replacement cables for them.
I think you'd be kidding yourself that you can clean up a part effectively withouth disassembling it first from the frame. Aside from paint stripping or staining, you'd also be likely destroying the properties of the grease in the bottom bracket at the very least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOyiDEFjE5w
Cheers
Richard
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby ldrcycles » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:09 pm
Hadn't thought of the grease issue, but that would of course be a problem. I didn't know the cables were different, i haven't really looked at them but they didn't jump out at me as being unusual. They are pretty rusty so might not be salvageable. If it makes a difference, the RD is labelled Positron II. These bits are on a National Matsushita Electric ladies bike, the frame is in very good condition so even if i can't get the Positron stuff working i can always throw some normal gear on it. I should be able to get some pics up tomorrow night, getting teeth pulled tonight so will be out of action.HappyHumber wrote: It's more the old solid core positron shifter cables you've got to worry about with that set up. They become and old brittle, and I don't think anyone has ever cared enough for the positron system to make replacement cables for them.
you'd also be likely destroying the properties of the grease in the bottom bracket at the very least.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby maccayak » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:41 am
Geoff
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby WyvernRH » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:45 am
Wow! Haven't seen one of those for decades! IRRC (if you have the alloy version) the cranks came off with a standard puller and the tricky freewheel bit stayed attached to the bottom bracket.ldrcycles wrote:Thanks for the replies, to clear it up, yes i mean the cranks where the chainrings keep rotating when you coast (which looks very weird). I have absolutely no idea how to take it apart and i think i remember reading somewhere that it was a difficult thing to do, with specific tools required.
This picture seems to confirm that http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/images/35.jpg
If you have the cottered steel version you are flying solo I'm afraid
Cheers
Richard
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby ldrcycles » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:45 pm
So the crank arms are steel but they come off as per ordinary cotterless cranks. I was very surprised to find they are actually a very small splined spindle, not square taper. I haven't tried to remove the BB/chainring/front freewheel but it looks as though it would undo on the non drive side and then pull out. And the date codes are 1984.
And just out of interest, this pic shows the notches on the Positron II rear derailleur which provide the indexing, unlike SIS which has the clicks in the shifter.
And another interesting one, a Sachs Huret Commander on a Puch ladies bike i am about to restore, which also has notches on the derailleur (although the engagement is VERY different, once i have it complete i will take a video to show), strangely this one has clicks in the shifter as well.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby ldrcycles » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:48 pm
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby elStado » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:17 pm
I have an after-market 3ttt stem on my Raleigh that I want to use, but it is black like that Merckx stem was and I want to go for a more original polish alloy look.matt1986 wrote:I'd consequently recommend caution when using Ranex on components with anodised parts. If you're interested in stripping off an anodised finish, I find that a mild solution of caustic soda (oven cleaner) does the trick. Here are the before and after photos of a stem I bathed in a solution of caustic soda (2 tablespoons of caustic soda crystals to approx. 1 litre of cold water) and gently scrubbed with fine steel wool. It still requires further polishing at this stage, but will shine up nicely.
The results are fantastic. Did you do much cleaning and polishing after stripping the anodising off?
Does this sound right:
1. Soak in the CS mix for X? amount of time until ready).
2. Gently scrub off remaining anodising with fine steel wool.
3. Hit it with 600/800(?) then 1200 grit w&d (using soapy water or running water).
4. Finally, polish using Autosol et al
I'm still trying to find out if the special aluminium Autosol is worth it, as I tried using the regular metal Autosol today on an alloy crank and it seemed to work fine.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby Ferrovelo » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:13 pm
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby elStado » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:47 pm
Will let it soak for another day and see what it looks like. Took before photos so I can compare it.
Also bought a small container of Ranex today to derust some surface spots on my Raleigh frame. Quite expensive though, about ~$40 a litre.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby mark field » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:39 pm
elStado wrote:Been soaking some rusted rear dropouts on an old steel Ricardo frame for about 24 hours. Just pulled it out and gave it a light scrub with some steel wool, looking pretty good but still some rust left over.
Will let it soak for another day and see what it looks like. Took before photos so I can compare it.
Also bought a small container of Ranex today to derust some surface spots on my Raleigh frame. Quite expensive though, about ~$40 a litre.
dump your rear dropouts in the ranex, that will speed up the process a bit. The Ranex is a bit expensive but it can be used time and time again.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby munga » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:45 pm
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby elStado » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:20 pm
Ah, I didn't realise it could be re-used. I'll try dropping the other rusted dropout in the Ranex for a comparison against the white vinegar I used on the other.mark field wrote:dump your rear dropouts in the ranex, that will speed up the process a bit. The Ranex is a bit expensive but it can be used time and time again.
Before:
After soaking for 48 hours and a light scrub with some steel wool:
Not bad for something that only costs a couple of bucks for a 2l container.
Can be re-used a few times too. I just let it settle and then drained the vinegar back into the bottle before washing out the remaining crud.
Apparently cola and lemon juice are also pretty effective rust removers. Lemon juice would be too much work even if you had a big tree, but cola is sometimes cheaper per litre than vinegar.
Worth a try.
Anyone tried removing rust using electrolysis?
http://www.chip.com/buick/techtips/rustremoval.html
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby mark field » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:01 pm
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby elStado » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:31 pm
I used white vinegarmark field wrote:well done for posting those pics, it really hits home the effectiveness of the brown vinegar, rust removal with no effort and a nice etched surface that is perfect for painting. cant beat it.
Does it just remove the rust, or does it also neutralise it? I remember reading somewhere that the chemical reaction caused by the vinegar will prevent future rust as well as removing it.
And then there's this factor:
Vinegar is acetic acid. After removing the rust, it will continue to slowly eat away at the part. It will also leave the part with a "pickled" or weathered look. As such, you must be careful if you're using vinegar (or any acid) to remove rust from parts that aren't destined to be painted.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby brasstinman » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:56 am
It would be interesting to see how Coke compares to brown vinegar.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby mark field » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:41 am
theres an episode of mythbusters that trialled coke for that, ill see if i can find it. i never drink the stuff either but i recon brown vinegar on a salad is better than coke on a salad, and a nice tall glass of ice cold brown vinegar with ice wont hold up as well on a summers day as cokebrasstinman wrote:I heard Coke is a good rust remover, my dad said they used to use it to clean up old coins and bits in the garage when he was a kid. Probably why I don't drink Coke.
It would be interesting to see how Coke compares to brown vinegar.
when i was young some mates and i were walking past an old guy who was tipping a can of coke onto his driveway, all four of us just stopped and quietly watched as we were contemplating what his problem was, he looked up at us and casually said "gets rid of oil stains, better on the driveway than in your stomach" we said nothing and walked off...... to 7-11 for a coke slurpee. kids will never listen.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby maccayak » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:25 pm
I am currently doing two 80's racers at the same time, a really small framed National for my son and a larger Centurion for me. Trying to teach my son about bikes. These days kids just get it to easy! Anyway, this stuff will help keep costs down as I can re use a lot of stuff> Thanks Mark and others for your tips.
Geoff
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby elStado » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:36 pm
Well next time you de-rust some parts can you do before-after pics, as well as an accurate count on how long you had to soak it.maccayak wrote:I went to Bunnings to get some Ranex, everyone must have been reading this forum because they only had jumbo containers left, but they had this stuff the lady said was the same called white knight rust converter. I bought some and dropped some rusty clips and a crappy looking front derailieur in it. Two hours later, they came out looking brand new without any polishing. I did not take before and after photos because I was not too confident.
I also saw the White Knight stuff, but skipped over it as I'd heard of the Ranex before and knew it would perform.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby Ferrovelo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:33 pm
***[EDIT, my bad, its 1L for $20, so nothing special about that price]
Its 30-60% phospohroic acid , Ranex is 10-35% phosphoric acid. So they both have the same active indgredient, with the rust-off is being potentially a little more for your money (depending on what Ranex costs?) as the instructions are to dilute with water anyway.
I can confirm it works well.
http://www.chemtech.net.au/cne_rustoff.html
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby mark field » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:40 pm
Whitworths marine, is that the one on Victoria rd Gladesville ?amrjon wrote:If you can't find Ranex, there's another brand of this stuff that bunnings sell called 'rust-off'. From memory it was about either $12 or $17 for a litre. (although googling just now I see that you can get 5L for $20 at whitworths marine)
Its 30-60% phospohroic acid , Ranex is 10-35% phosphoric acid. So they both have the same active indgredient, with the rust-off is being potentially a little more for your money (depending on what Ranex costs?) as the instructions are to dilute with water anyway.
I can confirm it works well.
http://www.chemtech.net.au/cne_rustoff.html
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby Ferrovelo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:56 pm
or just buy an onion apparrently?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQd6navSSw0 "...works on bicycles..."
Don't you just love the interwebs!
Hmm, not sure about that one. The rust-off (and I assume Ranex is just the same) is good stuff though. I'd previously been using oxalic acid but I now prefer this - none of the yellow deposit to clean off that you can get a little bit of with the oxalic acid.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby jbchybridrider » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:58 pm
So it must be alloy with some kind of coating. The thing is how did it rust like this.
It's never been inserted right down in the frame so there's been no reaction with the frame tubing.
I've had it soaking in brown vinegar for four days but there's been no effect whatsoever, so I'm stumped on this one and I don't want to ruin the metal look coating sanding it off. Any suggestions.
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Re: The brown vinegar trick
Postby Ferrovelo » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:02 pm
I must have miss-read it. Sorry, I'll edit my post above too.
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