Black Bike - Oz or Not?

[WyvernRH]

I would like to invoke the collective wisdom concerning a frame I have just purchased from a group member. (I have used a couple of Mark's photos here)
Now I have a strong hunch from a UK point of view as to what this bike is but given my ignorance of 1930’s/40's Oz bicycles I would like to run it past the folk here for suggestions as to the make and date.


Points of interest.
(1) Most obviously the Russ forks – anybody in Oz use them? No frame number or tubing stamp on fork steerer but stamped with the number '4'
(2) High mudguard stay mounts and rear reflector mount on r/h stay. Lamp boss on r/h fork (so it's from a country that drives on the left )
(3) Brampton clamp style headset BUT it’s a late model that fits ‘Continental ‘type head lugs
(4) Chater Lea dropouts and frame fittings with square type seatstay tops.
(5) Oiler port on r/h side of bottom headlug (and on l/h side of B/Bracket of course)
(6) Frame number stamped on front of bottom headlug 318771(see picture)
(7) Forkcrown is not drilled for brakes but has tapped hole in rear to take mudguard mounting


(8) Rear brake bridge (sic) is drilled vertically (for mudguard?) not horizontally


(9) Different pump pegs


(10)Weird braze-on on inside of r/h chainstay about 130mm forward of rear dropout (see picture) My best guess is a chain hanger for holding the chain during wheel changes or a spring hook for some sort of old derailleur (like the Cyclo Tourist, but that would have a hook WAY up the stay, not in this position)


(11) Will take 27" wheels but given the generous clearances of the period may be built for 26" of some description

The previous owner said the bike came with Lautewasser bars and matching short stem.
So does this line up with any Oz builders from the 30s/40’s?
I will share my ideas and the reasons if no-one can positively ID the frame and we can compare arguments
Cheers
Richard

[GaryF]

Hi WyvernRH,

that looks to be a very interesting frame. Unfortunately I can't help with any information. I'm just writing to say that I am interested to see if anyone can shed some light onto the frame's origins. My guess is that it could be an English frame and it had a foot brake with mudguards, a lighting set (Dynamo), a mattress saddle a set of handlebars suitable for upright riding and a bell. A bike suitable for a daily ride across the suburb to work or school.

[Torana68]

[quote="WyvernRH"]
:} pretty quiet on this one
some general comments....
the rear brake bridge is more British than the usual Oz tube type
never seen those pump pegs on a Oz bike
Head Lug oiler port wasnt used on the vast majority of Oz frames after the early 1900's (BSA type)
the head bearings would be English on a Oz bike of the 30's, 40's mabe continental but very rare, have they been cut down from English ones?
mudguard hole normal for Oz/Pom of the time
I've seen the chain stay brazeon before c 1930's Oz but Im also not 100% sure of its use other than a chain hanger for flip flop hubs?
Its possible the frame has been updated with the touring bits, can you check the colour of the brazing filler on tham and on the lugs?
the front tapped hole is earlier than the drilled through method but probably doesnt help (tapping at the rear was used by Oz framemakers)

(6) Frame number stamped on front of bottom headlug 318771
is this also an English thing? I would guess it could have been done by an Oz importer?(11)
Will take 27" wheels but given the generous clearances of the period may be built for 26" of some description
26" would be English, 27 would be post 30 somethig or other but unlikely if the frame was originally a touring frame/b]
The previous owner said the bike came with Lautewasser bars and matching short stem.
touring bars more likely English
So does this line up with any Oz builders from the 30s/40’s?
not really but anything is possible, really it looks English

[WyvernRH]

Thanks chaps, before I came up with my ideas I just wanted to make sure that no-one would say 'Well of course that's a Flying Wallaby from Mudgee' or similar.

What I think I have here is a slightly later version of these:




They have Russ forks, oiling point in the lower headlug and a basically identical frame geometry/frame fittings. Also designed for Resilion brakes from new (no drillings) and have lauterwasser bars on short stem (as had mine originally). My frame has never had a headbadge which also matches a Sun-Wasp of the period as these had 'Sun Lightweight' transfers. What also sways my opinion is that I have a Sun-Wasp tandem in the shed which has exactly the same seat lug/seat stay junction setup.
I would say mine is from the late 30's or just post WWII as it has the late model Brampton headset with press-in cups.
HOWEVER, one point against. The frame number is stamped into the bottom headlug. I thought Sunbeam was the only British manufacturer that did this so maybe it is a Sunbeam 'Sports Tourist' model like this:

However, no Russ forks, no oiler in headset and it doesn't seem well finished enough for a Sunbeam.... So maybe not....
I am swayed to the Sun-Wasp solution as it does seem to match the specs and standard braze-ons that were used by Sun at that point in time. It also has a few places where the brazing finishing is OK but well, a little clumsy, which I don't think would have got past the foreman at Sunbeam.
I am still open to any suggestions as to the heritage of the bike and if anyone can put any holes in my logic (such as it is ) feel free to comment but at the moment it is going to be restored as a just post WWII Sun-Wasp Tourist with Lauterwasser bars on GB stem, front and rear Resilion brakes, 27" alloy Weinmanns on single speed Harden hubs, Nicklin steel cottered cranks and finished off with black alloy mudguards.
Cheers
Richard

[barkmadly]

It's great research you have done. It makes me think that the original Lautterwaser bars and alloy stem, re-chromed and polished respectively (for which I bought the frame) should accompany the frame that I sold you to maintain the bikes integrity.
I would be interested in trading them for parts - I am into old bikes - pre WW11 back to year dot. If you are keen let me know. I don't know how you message without it appearing in the forum. Cheers.

[WyvernRH]

Well, this one just flew together. I had all the bits on the shelf and I was given a present of a pair of Soma Lauterwasser bars! I aimed at a just post WWII- early 50's Clubman's bicycle such as a CTC member might ride with a 'used' look so nothing was polished to excess. I got the Sun-Wasp decals off of eBay, nowhere near as good as Greg Softly's and a bitch to apply but they look OK when they are on the bike.
The Specs as finished are:
Short GB alloy spearpoint stem
Soma Lauterwasser bars
Nicklen steel cranks with 50t 1/8" chainwheel
Lyotard steel cage/alloy body pedals with half clips
Harden 32/40 hubs, 19t fixed sprocket rear on 27" alloys
Resilion cantilever brakes and levers(chrome pre-war back, black post-war front)
Dunlop 'All Weather' saddle on nickeled steel post.
Philidyne lights with a Lucas 'Sports' dynamo (which all work!)




The frame is really built for 26x1 1/4 or 26x1 3/8 wheels as the 27" rear wheel can only be fitted into the frame with the tyre deflated (you can inflate if when the wheel is in place OK ) so I need to look out for some 32/40h 26x 1 3/8 rims (alloy or stainless pref'). The Resilion brakes are a bit of a mix and match to make the set and the silver front 'lightweight' (sic) cable stands out a bit but it was the best condition one I had.
Bike comes in at 12kg exactly (circa 26lb) which is pretty good for the period.
It rides nicely, I am out of practice on fixed but I got around town fairly smartish and the handling is 'fast' for the period with the Russ forks soaking up a fair bit of the crap road surface around here. The Dunlop 'rubber' saddle will be replaced ASAP tho. I can see why they didn't catch on.
Oh yes, modern mudgurads don't fit the narrow fork crown so I need the old alloy 'racer' type with 'squeeze' or cut out to go under the crown (see advert above). If anyone has a set or even just a rear ( I have a repairable front) then I'm interested
Cheers
Richard

[ldrcycles]

Absolutely stunning, nice work .

[dropbars]

Hello, just thought it may be worth mentioning that a British company that used to stamp it's frame numbers at the bottom of the headstock like this one was Joe Cooke on his famous Imperial Petrel cycles. Not all of them were of the Supergrid, or Jug Handle type.
Regards.
Dave

[Torana68]

better late than not seeing the info "Imperial Petrel cycles" sounds terribly English New decals required?

[WyvernRH]

Hello, just thought it may be worth mentioning that a British company that used to stamp it's frame numbers at the bottom of the headstock like this one was Joe Cooke on his famous Imperial Petrel cycles. Not all of them were of the Supergrid, or Jug Handle type.
Regards.
Dave

That's Interesting, I didn't know that. Being that I'm a London lad I've only ever seen one Imperial Petrel and that was a long time ago which was of the 'Jug Handle' design. As I didn't know better I had assumed that was his trademark like the Bates Gate or Thanet cross frame designs.

I did a fair bit of digging on the Web and I think I'm still reasonably safe in keeping the Sun-Wasp transfers on the bike for the minute, mostly cos the frame number stamped on my frame is way out of sequence to known Joe Cooke frames and has never had a head badge. Also I couldn't find a picture of a Petrel with Russ forks and my frame has sharper (for the 30's -40's) head angles than any Petrel I have found a photo of (so far). However, one or other of the Petrels in the pictures I found did sport most of the other features of my bike. Like being designed for Resilions, having oiler points in the head, square tipped chainstay tops, Chater Lea ends etc.

I still can't be 100% sure it is a Sun-Wasp, it could be a BSA maybe or from a multitude of small builders who were around at the time and used head transfers instead of expensive badges but personally I'm still up there in the 90% sure bracket.

Richard