Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:05 pm

Without trawling thru the entire thread, have the All City bikes come into the discussion at all, specifically the Space Horse :

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looks to be nicely made and works in both 700/650 formats. I must admit to lusting after one now as appears to be a nice merger of old/new....just wondering is all.
Campagnolo for show, SunTour for go

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baabaa
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby baabaa » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:35 pm

Agree all-is-good with a good all-city bike....have a 2016 red and white 61 cm Macho Man Disc built up from a frame with shed bits, they are a well built frame for the price
Comments and thoughts only here so..............
I am 191cm and would need to work hard to get over 80kgs. I "think" I have several fancy bikes bought because of the frame design and materials and really don’t care what the bikes looks like when I am riding, more so how well they rides. The all city MM is my heaviest/ most solid frameset.
See I still don’t quite get why try and retro fit a 126mm in the rear hub frame to try and even get 40mm into the rear end? It is a fine bike as it is so just enjoy it and even if you moved the studs you may also have to crimp in the inside of chainstays to prevent tyre rub and you may have all the chain line issues of getting a chain around a wider treaded shoulder tyre. If punctures are a huge issue try some lightish 700c cx tyres with a bit of tread, (I) have found for commuting even a bit more rubber between the road and tyre casing helps prevent them. A bit of sun or a good light and it is easy to dig the glass shards out with a sharp bullet nail. Had a really good run with all the mix of the ritchey cx tyres.

While I still like old bikes all this what-if fuss is kinda why I went a disc frame in 2007 with a salsa lacruz when a roadish type bike with discs was pretty rare. Now have four disc frames which in a simple and quick wheel swap from bike to bike I can go from 32 mm ( or less if I need) up to 50mm. Have so many different combos of cx, drop bar 29er, touring and "adventure" type bikes. Being light-ish and lanky on a good 60cm ETT frame I don’t need float so try and avoid riding more than 40mm on tar and even in good dirt as it is just extra work and never much fun so I have really have had no need to go 650b to date. I am really not sure why people think they can or would even want to ride very fast all the time on dirt roads and If things are dicey out in the dirt (or mud) I just slow down, BUT with discs I could just drop in a 650b wheelset and go. My old 26 inch touring bike and 700c ss canti cross bikes sit sad and lonely in the shed. Nil regrets in moving onto a modern bike format that use discs and BB7 offer more than power that I need while I don’t think I have ever had an issue with the stopping power of cantis with Scott-Mathauser pads. I just don’t miss the mucking about with all the what ifs of rim brakes in any way what so ever.
My latest bike is a XL ritchey ascent ( spp. breakaway) which runs a touring dyno wheelset with 1.9 inch 29er tyres. If you need a one can do it all bike these and even the VeloOrange disc type of designs do it really well and with the one frame and say a 700c or 29er with a 650B wheelset and you are more or less good to go with wide range of riding. I blame the old salsa fargos but the market now has plenty of nice bikes from quality brands at good prices so why not just forget about “the Jan Heine look” and take the leap get all the good options that come with discs? Oh and what you save in time and effort sell the house and kids and put some real $$ down and get a true 1950s french 650B beauty .

Edit some pics
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singlespeedscott
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:55 pm

I commute 165-260km a week. I have a good idea of what I want and need based on experience and requirements. I simply have no need for discs on the road. Having done 100’s of 1000’s of metres of descending, wet and dry, I have never had an issue with caliper brakes. Caliper brakes work and are easily serviced and the pads last a lot longer in the wet. On my MTB discs brakes have a place for wet muddy events but the pads disappear in short order. I have used Avid BB’s and other Avid disc brakes and when it comes to discs I’ll take Shimano every time...on the single track.

On the road disc brakes still have a way to go, standards still have not settled. Also Shimano hydraulic brakes are limited to STI levers, something I don’t want or need for my commuter.
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Bendo
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Bendo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:36 am

ChrisCrash wrote: But here's what gets me on these - I was quoted $2,700 for what I know is a $1,700 bike in the US. Of course with the current exchange rate, I guess that's not too bad, but still, $2700 for a basic cro moly frame with a steerer tube that looks like a beer can? No thanks.
It's called the Australia Tax and we've been paying it for years. Still, we have decent publicly-funded health care so I'm not complaining... ;)

But to be serious you're right that we pay too much. It's one of the reasons that I went from assembling everything second-hand, to a custom bike bought from overseas. I totally bypassed the mainstream market because I could tell it was nearly always hype driving prices and very little actual innovation or value-for-money. When I was at the Toei workshop, Yamada san asked me why I was buying a frameset from them. "Don't you have framebuilders in Australia?" I couldn't tell him that a custom bike from an Aussie builder with a fraction of Toei's experience would cost more than twice as much. b

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Bendo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:39 am

singlespeedscott wrote:I commute 165-260km a week. I have a good idea of what I want and need based on experience and requirements. I simply have no need for discs on the road. Having done 100’s of 1000’s of metres of descending, wet and dry, I have never had an issue with caliper brakes. Caliper brakes work and are easily serviced and the pads last a lot longer in the wet. On my MTB discs brakes have a place for wet muddy events but the pads disappear in short order...
OK so the wheel-changeability thing with discs, yes. But then on the other hand this. ^^^^

I guess I'm a little allergic to marketing. And whatever the peloton is doing. :D

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:39 pm

Well I’ve finally crawled into the 650b rabbit hole. My Pacenti 650b Brevet rims turned up today.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:39 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Well I’ve finally crawled into the 650b rabbit hole.
:-)
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby ademack » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:44 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Well I’ve finally crawled into the 650b rabbit hole. My Pacenti 650b Brevet rims turned up today.
No doubt you investigated sources of 650B machined sidewall rims ... find any in Australia?

(Asking for a friend)

(Asking for myself actually)

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:09 pm

ademack wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:Well I’ve finally crawled into the 650b rabbit hole. My Pacenti 650b Brevet rims turned up today.
No doubt you investigated sources of 650B machined sidewall rims ... find any in Australia?

(Asking for a friend)

(Asking for myself actually)
The rim brake 650b rim choice is pretty much non existent in Australia. Of all the rim brake 650b choice the Pacenti gets the most wraps and is apparently easy to setup tubeless. I bought them directly from Pacenti in the US. Shipping was free and the price is the same as Compass cycles.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:08 pm

singlespeedscott wrote: Shipping was free
That's mucking farvelous!

I was quoted $70 to ship two tyres a week ago
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby ademack » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:21 pm

singlespeedscott wrote: I bought them directly from Pacenti in the US. Shipping was free and the price is the same as Compass cycles.
You, sir, are my favourite person on the internets today.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:06 pm

Glad I could help mate. Would be even better if the Aussie peso was actually with something against the green back.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby savvas » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:16 am

Hi Folks, At long last the beautiful red-treaded Hetres on my rSogn have given up the ghost. They still have plenty of tread but the walls are shredding and bulging all over the place. I'd appreciate it if I could be afforded some recommendations for replacements - light weight, easy rolling 650B tyres that'll cope with a variety of conditions, won't break the bank and - most importantly - will last and not self-destruct like these blxxxy things! Locally available in Oz would be great too. I'm thinking around 40-42mm. I still use tubes (Velocity rims). Ta, Sam

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:51 am

My choice would be the file tread, Panaracer Gravel Kings. Although the sidewall is more of a brown than beige.

In 700c, I have found them to be more durable then the tyres from Compass and they don't seem to roll any slower. They are avalible in both 38mm and 42mm widths.

The cheapest prices I have found are from Merlin, a pair delivered to Australia for $100.

https://www.merlincycles.com/en-au/pana ... 11240.html
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby ademack » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:02 pm

Commuter Cycles in Melbourne probably have the largest range of 650B tyres in Oz.

Edit: But yes, that price on Gravel Kings is hard to best.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:47 am

Even better than Scott’s deal on Pacenti rims, for previous buyers of their rims back when Kirk owned the company (and I did buy a pair of SL23s back then) they have a “rim amnesty” with big discounts on current rims. I can get a pair of Brevets with tape and valves here in Melbourne for AUD155 or asymmetric disk Forzas for 175. Trouble is, the discount takes the total below the USD150 where they offer free postage and at USD40 I lose over half the savings. I can’t get any interest among my 3 sons -anyone want to go into this with me? Postage to other cities once they get here is whatever the cheapest 3kg is from 3095 Eltham. $15 to Brisbane or $25 to Perth for instance.

Edit - we might get pinged for GST on the way into Australia too - but it doesn't change the favourable nature of the pricing. I already have one taker, and will accept up to one more.

Andrew

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:50 pm

Hows the amnesty work? I would like some 700c rims but they only have them in 32 hole atm.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:27 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Hows the amnesty work? I would like some 700c rims but they only have them in 32 hole atm.
Basically you tell them who you bought from and when, and your name and they email back a code. USD 75 off each pair of aluminium rims, 25% off misc stuff and some other fixed amounts off built wheels and carbon rims in their store. Seems the new owners are clearing out to change emphasis of the business. It's explained better on their website. I doubt whether they checked with Sean and Anna at Rawland (the source of my old SL23s) before giving me a code. It's for buyers of SL23s and SL25s, but I think whilst there have been the odd comments about cracking of those, it's been nothing like the level of noise about the PL23s. Just a way of clearing stock to mostly friendly previous customers, I'd say. They've got the Forzas in 700c rim brake 28h.

And the 32h Brevet 650b rims have just gone.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby ademack » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:49 pm

This thread was quite helpful when I was considering all the ways to make/build/buy a 650B low-trail bike. Especially finding out that I could buy rims direct from Pacenti!

So although I did not buy a modern or mass-produced 650B rando frame, here's the current final outcome.

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The frame I've had since the mid 90s, when it was a Shogun Alpine GT touring bike.

To go 650B & low trail, I had Joe Cosgrove make me a fork with the same axle to crown measurement as the existing one, but with the canti posts in the right place for 650b wheels, and with the extra rake to make it low trail.

Joe also cut off the posts on the rear seat stays, and added new ones in the new correct position.

Joe's business is called Cycle Design. http://cycledesign.com.au

The bike is great to ride with a front load, as anticipated. I would call the ride 'stately' rather than 'plush' or 'supple'. It's no lightweight, but then neither am I.

It's not only the bike I choose to ride to work each day, but increasingly its the one I take on just about any ride in the country. It's the best for anything other than a bunch road ride, or a proper singletrack mtb ride ...

Component highlights:
  • • Pacenti Brevet rims, front hub is SP dynamo, the rim brake one, rear hub is a Shimano Tiagra.
    • Panaracer Gravel Kings in 42-584, running tubeless.
    • Shimergo drivetrain: Campag Record 10-speed brifters with J-tek thingo to Shimano Alivio 9-speed rear derailleur, 9-speed 11-34 cassette. Front chainrings are 42-30.
    • Tektro CR720 cantilever brakes.
    • B&M lights, the front one is IQ-X, rear is a Secula (how good are dynamo lights!)
Last edited by ademack on Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:50 pm

ademack wrote: So although I did not buy a modern or mass-produced 650B rando frame, here's the current final outcome.
Looks good!
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:18 pm

ademack wrote:
So although I did not buy a modern or mass-produced 650B rando frame, here's the current final outcome.

Image
Great build.

Ironically I have seen Joe a couple of times over the last week with a Raleigh Royal frame, built from a full complement of Reynolds 531 Special Tourist tubing, that I picked up super cheap. I was going to get Joe to move the cantilever posts for a 650b conversion but I couldn't bring myself to do it as the frame and paint is in excellent condition.

All I ended up doing was to get Joe to adjust the alignment and chase the headset race for an ISO headset. As such my planed randonneur is going to be a 700c build.

One day the 650b will happen :roll:
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby ademack » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:19 pm

Ironically I have seen Joe
... best way to interact with Joe for sure

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:33 pm

ademack wrote:
Ironically I have seen Joe
... best way to interact with Joe for sure
Definitely, however they usually turn into a long visit. The last few times I’ve seen him we’ve spent nearly 3 hrs talking about bikes :lol:
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby ademack » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:11 am

The last few times I’ve seen him we’ve spent nearly 3 hrs talking about bikes
When I turned 40, which I think was 2004, I got Joe to build me a road / light touring frame. I still ride that one as well ... I love having a bike that was mostly made about 2km from my home.

But imagine the amount of time you have to spend in conversation with Joe for him to actually make you a whole bike. I think he probably spent more time talking to me than he did fillet brazing.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:34 am

ademack wrote:
I think he probably spent more time talking to me than he did fillet brazing.
:lol:
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