Bates or not?

[WyvernRH]

I bought this frame, finished really nicely with hand painted BATES logos and linework at the recent Vintage meet in Sydney. The seller (sorry we were introduced but my memory for names....) told me it was an 'English' frame that had been refurbished by Bates for the wife of the chap he bought it from. hence the name on the chainstays. Now I can quite believe this as Bates seem to have been a bit free and loose with their company finish. Over the years I have seen Repcos, Malvern Stars and Speedwells with their quite specific lugwork that have been 're-labelled' by Bates when they have refurbished the frame. Well whatever it was, it will now stay a Bates as the finish after a bit of tidying is very nice, The top coat had been soft at one point and had absorbed road crap, hand sweat etc which looked bad but with a bit of work with cutting paste and fine wire wool cleared away leaving a tastefully faded orange finish.
I must admit I walked past this a few times until I noticed that it was totally brazed up (lugless), had offset pump pegs and 50's Simplex dropouts with a hanger specific to the chainpull type derailleurs. Also the seller offered a really good deal! I am actually quite excited about building this one up to see how it rides.
So, question is, what is it really? Is it actually a Bates of Melbourne or really a refurbished English frame? Did bates buils lugless? The forks reveal the frame number 05742 but no tubing marks, although the light frame weight betrays it as 531 or Accles. Offset rear facing pump pegs suggest touring pretensions? My original guess was a Claud Butler or Holdsworth custom but the finish of the lugless brazing does not seem up to Claud standards (still very good tho') nor does the frame number quite match a Claud sequence. The rear dropouts suggest anytime from late 40's to late 50's as a time frame. There are cable stops for front and rear derailleurs (original?) Any ideas? All comments appreciated.
Still a bit of tidying to do before rebuilding, I think it will be having 60's touring parts fitted rather than 'original' mid to late 50's gear as I would like to ride this one around the countryside a bit.
Sorry about the mess in the photos, been working late so these were a bit rushed...






So, what is the group wisdom?

Richard

[ldrcycles]

Only 2 thoughts-

1. Those dropouts are interesting.

2. Your idea of "mess" is my idea of "cleanroom".

[singlespeedscott]

The smooth finished head tube and rough bottom bracket suggest a Jack Taylor. Maybe why it has the French fittings and rear mounted pegs for the pump. I know nothing though it's only a guess

[Torana68]

Nothing there that says "Bates" to me , did they make lugless? look for an English make that had those offset pump pegs.

[feelthewheel]

If it assists, all the Bates' in my collection have either an "L" or "R" stamped above/near the serial number (all are located underneath the bottom bracket). I think this either meant a "Leo" or "Rupe" built frame. Can anyone else concur?

[singlespeedscott]

The more I look at your frame the more I think it's a Jack Taylor - The serial number on the fork matches up with those that are built in 1967, The lugless fillet brazed frame with a roughly finished bottom bracket area (apprently Jack couldn't see the point of cleaning up the area as it would only get covered in grime anyway ), The fork crown lugs look right for the era, as well as the rearward facing pump pegs.

Have a look on here - http://www.blackbirdsf.org/taylor/serials.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[WyvernRH]

Oo-err - it does look very like a couple of the Tour of Britain examples....

Richard

[Tinker]

Possibly a Ken Dickie painted Bates.

[WyvernRH]

Oops frame number correction its 05274.
Right numbers, wrong sequence - sorry!
Still in the same ballpark tho.

Richard

[WyvernRH]

Ok, decision made, as I have no intention of doing a re-spray this one is going to be re-built as a mid to late 70's 'upgrade' <sic> with early Japanese kit of the 50's touring frame that this so obviously is. It is (almost) certainly from the UK, highly likely on current evidence from the Taylor brothers workshop. Especially as it seem to have been built for 650B or maybe 26x1 1/4 wheels fro the problems that I have had trying to get brakes to fit the 700c wheels I have fitted.
I decided to modify the rear gear hanger as little a s possible. It already had a notch cut ito it but it was basically useless, any derailler that might fit was locked into one position. So. I went for an early 70's Suntour gear. These appear to have been designed as a compromise to fit he later Simplex hanger or the Campag standard. I wanted to minimize the mods to the hanger so the 50's style hanger ended up like this. (see earlier photo for original.)


This allowed free movement of the early 70s Suntour gear with the flat backed alloy hanger and rear lock nut with minimal mods to the original hanger. I can still go back to the push-pull Simplex one day if required.
It had to be an early SunTour as after a certain point (late 70's?) Suntour went totally for the Campag dropout and the hangers changed with no lock nut and minimal clearances to the adjustment stop block prevent fitting to the 50's style hanger without major mods.
The assembly all went well initially and I hoped to have completed photos to show BUT the SunTour V-Luxe 'S' I fitted would not traverse the 14-28 Ultra 6 block I fitted. It had the capacity but physically could just not move far enough left to reach the innermost 28t sprocket. The cage bodies closed up and locked! Comparison with a slightly later VT GT Luxe model showed why. The cage bodies on the later mid 70's model had a much wider gap twixt the parallelogram bodies so they could move to more extreme adjustments - Oh suck....Have to pull the drive train apart and fit a GT of the period with a longer chain. I have a Raleigh branded version of this http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Sun ... 00%29.html and I also have one of these slightly earlier models http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Sun ... 00%29.html. Not sure which to use just yet, opinions?
Maybe a opportunity to use that Nervar Triple chainset that has been sitting on the shelf?

Richard

[WyvernRH]

Hmm. ended up using the Suntour version of this which was the only model able to cope with the big offset of the early Simplex hanger and reach the inner sprocket (just)

Works really well, right period... but.... heading for a re-think on components for this project I feel.

Richard

[Torana68]

...... but.... heading for a re-think on components for this project I feel.
Richard

But of grinding, some Pink powder coat and fixie it?

[singlespeedscott]

Hmm. ended up using the Suntour version of this which was the only model able to cope with the big offset of the early Simplex hanger and reach the inner sprocket (just)

Works really well, right period... but.... heading for a re-think on components for this project I feel.

Richard

Would look good with Simplex gears, Stronglight cranks and MAFAC brakes.

[WyvernRH]

Would look good with Simplex gears, Stronglight cranks and MAFAC brakes.

This is very true, The Stronglight cranks (or possibly Nervar) are on the way. However...MAFAC or any other centrepull is sadly precluded as the headset stack has no space for the front hanger. I could go with the drilled GB stem of course but using a rear hanger with a lugless clamp is awkward.. I think the bike is intended for sidepulls, maybe GB or MAFAC? Simplex gears are the other worry. If I was restoring to 'original' Then the type of Simplex gear that fits that specific hanger has a very small range and the bike would become a ' Fair day-small hills' only ride. Now,I don't get that vibe from this bike, it wants to be ridden, so it will need gears that I can use in the Hunter Valley (I have tried to fit aperiod Simplex 'Touriste' and it just doesn't fit...) Later Simplex gears that coped with larger ranges need the later model Simplex hanger which would have required significant mods. So, given the BATES re-paint job I went for early 70's SunTour gears which only required I modify the existing notch on the hanger.
Now the brakes are awkward. The short reach period sidepull brakes I possess (Modulo) will work with 27" wheels(just at bottom extreme) but not 700c. The long reach brakes (GB Courier or Shimano Tourney) will sort of work with 700c (top extreme) but not 27". Hmm maybe long reach with 650B or 26x 1 1/4"?
Interestingly the bike has a low bottom bracket height (I will measure it to-morrow) But standing next to my Carlton from the same period it is a good half inch or more lower with the same wheels (15mm or so for the imperially challenged). I am pretty sure the bike was intended as some sort of club bike or tourer from the mid to late 50's. The hints being the offset pump pegs allowing for large tyres and mudguards, the low bottom bracket. But then why the specific Simplex dropout which limited you to the TDF typeracing gears?
I think the answer may be that it is a 'Fast' tourer/club bike intended for CTC runs at the weekend and lightweight 'saddlebag only' touring when required. There were a lot of these around when I was a lad in the UK. Bikes that could handle a bit of light touring or rough stuff but were also a little 'sporty' to massage the ego of the rider.
So, at the moment, still going with SunTour gear setup but mulling over what brakes and wheels to use.

Richard

[piper]

Firstly nice pick up, it is a lovely frame with interesting features.

I'm curious as to whether there is a serial number stamped on the left hand rear dropout as well as on the steerer tube? Perhaps opposite where the Simplex stamp is?

Look forward to seeing your build.

[WyvernRH]

I'm curious as to whether there is a serial number stamped on the left hand rear dropout as well as on the steerer tube? Perhaps opposite where the Simplex stamp is?

Sadly no... I went back and had a really good look but there is no sign of numbers on either face of the l/h dropout. Out of interest I did get the verniers out and measured the thickness of both the right and left dropouts. Turns out the left is noticeably thinner (0.5 mm) Not sure if this is by design as the r/h dropout has to support the gear hanger or someone has filed the l/h one back at some point for nefarious purposes?

Richard

[WyvernRH]

Right, Initial build completed after some part swapping amongst the collection. As I said above, this is an attempt to represent the bike as it might have been after it's re-paint - a early-mid 70's fast tourer. Also makes it rideable for unfit old me around the Lower Hunter! So the build ended up as:
Stem - GB late version alloy diamond badge
Bars - GB Randonneurs
Brakes - Weinmann Synchron (yes those...) with modern pads
Chainset - SR Maxy 52/40
Pedals - SR platform (these will be changed)
Freewheel - Suntour Ultra 6 speed 14-28
Front Derailleur- Suntour AX (a little out of period)
Rear Derailleur Suntour Seven long arm
Hubs - SR low flage 36h q/r
Rims Weinmann 36h
Seatpost - simple alloy
Saddle - Wrights leather

Bike as built is very light even with the half steel derailleur and leather saddle I can't tell you exactly til I by a new set of scales...
Rides very well, handles tightly but soaks up the road shock (even on the skinny tyres fitted while I wait for 28c's to arrive) Brakes work fine with modern pads. The mid range SunTour derailleurs as usual, are excellent, changing across the block cleanly and silently..except... getting onto the smallest sprocket is a bit of an effort for the derailleur, probably due to the weird derailleur hanger?
All in all very nice but I'm considering changing the chainset for a Nervar triple. However, I'm waiting on a Nervar bottom bracket to try this as the Nervar cranks do not fit well on Japanese axles or Stronglight axles. Maybe TA taper?




Richard

[grantw]

Very nice.

[singlespeedscott]

It turned out very nice. Re the bottom bracket. I had been lead to believe that the Japanese JIS standard was the same as the French taper.

[old steel Bikes]

Great bike Richard

How does the rear changer handle such a wide spread of teeth size on the chain wheels and cluster.

Danny

[WyvernRH]

How does the rear changer handle such a wide spread of teeth size on the chain wheels and cluster.
Danny

Very well is the short answer. Suntour gears of this period were the only gears with the slant parallelogram so the long arm versions like this mid range 'Seven' cope very well with a wide range. I am considering a 52/42/32 triple and I am sure the gear would handle that adequately.
Gears that did not have the advantage of the slant parallelogram did not handle this range so well. I have a Dawes set up with a contemporary Shimano long arm gear and in truth it struggles a bit over a 52/44 to 14-28 range. It was not until the engineering weirdos like the Huret Duopar and Shomano 'Stag' Deore hit the market in the early 80's (?) that Suntour really had any competition in the touring world. Even then the complications like multiple pivots and such incorporated into these derailleurs were soon abandoned when the slant pivot patent expired and everybody used it.

Richard

[WyvernRH]

Well, SingleSpeedScott got his wish for this bike to have French cranks. Half way around Grahamstown Lake the left crank fell off due to the thread stripping on the axle stud rendering the axle useless. So, opportunity to fit Nervar triple from spares box!
This is how the bike ended up. I fitted the Nervar 52/42/32triple with Lyotard alloy touring pedals and added a set of mudguards.



Richard

[singlespeedscott]

It turned out a treat. Very nice.

[GaryF]

I'd like to join in on the congratulations - congratulations - a very nice bike and appropriately assembled. It looks like it would really suit your 'fast tourer' purpose.

[Imwit]

I really like that.
Happy that SSS got his way.
What is it going to carry? (apart from yourself I mean)