Trikes vs U-Bar Chicanes?

[Downhill]

Hi all,

I've been asked to get some information on the needs of trike riders when it comes to the placement of U bars, bollards and posts.

The design of U-bar chicanes on paths and access ways leaves a lot to be desired when it come to trike access. Design guides for paths take into account road bikes, wheelchairs and mobility scooters, but not trikes! (By "trikes" I mean all types, e.g. deltas, tadpoles, uprights, hand trikes, etc.). So my questions are:

1. What should be the minimum clear path width around U-bars, posts and bollards? Would 1 m be adequate for most trikes?
2. What should be the minimum distance between two U bars forming a chicane?

I'm not a trike rider myself, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[OldBloke]

I would think 1m would be enough for most trikes but 1.2m would be better as it gives a margin of error.

Where I have the most trouble is with three interleaved barriers when they are too close and can't be negotiated without getting off the trike and lifting it around.

By interleaved I mean the barriers that look like this:
|--- |
| ---|
|--- |
They may also be called offset barriers. They need to be at least 2.5 to 3.0m apart to accommodate a trike turning circle, ie 5m min between the first and third leaf of the barrier.

Just my thoughts for what they're worth.

OB
Sent from my GT-I8750 using Tapatalk

[chuckchunder]

Hi Downhill

Hhmmm, going to have to think about this one. Will get back to you!

[Baalzamon]

They are a PAIN. If I couldn't get under them out I get and manhandle the trike around the U-Bar chicanes.

[Downhill]

I would think 1m would be enough for most trikes but 1.2m would be better as it gives a margin of error.

Where I have the most trouble is with three interleaved barriers when they are too close and can't be negotiated without getting off the trike and lifting it around.

I hadn't considered that. You raise a very important point. Not all trike riders are able to lift their trikes around. For some disabled riders that would be extremely difficult. Good design would allow riders to negotiate the barriers without having to exit the trike (or having to execute a 3-point turn).

Assuming that the trike had a 5 m turning circle and 1.2 m clearance, would a minimum of 2.5 m between barriers be enough to allow this?

[Downhill]

Hhmmm, going to have to think about this one. Will get back to you!

Thanks! All feedback most welcome.

They are a PAIN. If I couldn't get under them out I get and manhandle the trike around the U-Bar chicanes.

It makes sense to go under the bars where possible. What then should be the minimum height for U bars? Some trikes and riders are higher than others.

[recumbenteer]

Velomobiles??

My rotovelo in Sydney...

[OldBloke]

Assuming that the trike had a 5 m turning circle and 1.2 m clearance, would a minimum of 2.5 m between barriers be enough to allow this?

Maybe not. It would need some experimentation with barriers and some different trikes. My trike has a longer wheelbase than some others and hence a larger turning circle. I think hand-powered trikes may also have a larger turning circle.

The worst type of barrier is those abominations that have a 'gate' that swings from one side to another within a corral, where you enter the contraption, swing the 'gate' across and then back out, I can't use those at all. They aren't long enough for me to fit my trike into and be able to swing the gate. We have a number of them along the Fernleigh Track in Newcastle and I can't use any of them. If I needed to exit the track at any of those points I would need to lift the trike over the fence. They would provide a complete barrier to any user with a disability or restricted mobility.

OB

[OldBloke]

The narrowness of the path is also a factor. On a broad path you have more room to be able to get at an angle to the chicane, on a narrow path you would need a much greater distance between the U-bars.

OB

[find_bruce]

The question is what are you trying to block? If you are trying to block motorbikes from going through, it will be too narrow for wheelchairs, trikes, trailers. Once you accept you can't block motorbikes, it only has to be narrower than a small car - maybe 1.5 m

[Bartek]

I think you also need to consider upright bikes towing child trailers, plus special needs trikes which can be standard size DF bike converted to twin rear wheels with a width of approx 800mm!

[zebee]

I think you also need to consider upright bikes towing child trailers, plus special needs trikes which can be standard size DF bike converted to twin rear wheels with a width of approx 800mm!

Or recumbents towing trailers come to that.

As find_bruce says, you have to decide what you are blocking. If the brief is "block motorcycles" then the answer is "can't". Because a small trailbike is not that much bigger than a recumbent and a barrier that blocks that will block a bent or trike.

Forget motorcycles - the twonks riding the illegal minibikes won't be stopped by barriers that bicycles can get through and few if any barrier-managed paths are of interest to motorcyclists as shortcuts. You might get the occasional scofflaw on a trail bike but is a once or twice a year thing worth stopping legit users?

If you have contacts with planners, maybe offer to get a few odd sized bikes together along with some chalk and some poles and the planners can play with ideas and see how they work. Engineers are often better when they can see things.

If you and they are in NSW I'm happy to bring a 'bent and trailer and for this I can arrange it during working hours anywhere within 10km of a cityrail station. Between me and recumbenteer's velo we will probably cover the extremes of length and width.

[geebee]

Another way to deal with recumbent trikes is to have the U bar tall enough to go under, Thats how I deal with a local one that is too skinny at the gap to allow a 30" track through.
I just pull the flag and ride straight under

[zebee]

Another way to deal with recumbent trikes is to have the U bar tall enough to go under, Thats how I deal with a local one that is too skinny at the gap to allow a 30" track through.
I just pull the flag and ride straight under

Tall enough and wide enough.... the ones in the photo above are too narrow for some trikes - a friend's Greenspeed won't fit for example.

And I bet an Anura won't go under most of them.

[Roinik]

Seriously though, you have to sort out the simple questions of:

* Why is there a problem? What is leading to the requirement of the loops? If it is to keep cars out them place lower than handlebar height concrete barriers on either side, no more than 1.5m apart at the narrowest point. I'll post a photo up here tonight of another option that has been implemented in Radelaide, a modification of which would probably be ok.
* What are you trying to achieve? Is it to stop cars? If so, refer to question 1 regarding why. Is it to provide cyclists with a leaning rail? If so, place it off to the side of the path. Is it to slow people down? If so place a few tactile tiles and a sign stating "SLOW DOWN BEFORE YOU HURT SOMEONE FOOL!" or equivalent in gentile speak.

Bike hoops/staples, bollards and other obstructions are a PITA when on a path. It's like placing a power pole in the middle of a road - it creates a safety issue so you just don't do it. If you are concerned about a path junction then a simple give-way sign and some paint works well. So does splitting the path and planting something like a paperbark tree in the middle. If you're worried that bike riders are harassing walkers then there is often fault on both sides. Walkers often can't hear you coming due to headphones, they are wandering all over the pathway, they have straying dogs with them or there is one of those retractable leads that acts like a garrote wire connected between the owner and the wandering pet.

If you want to make a real difference to the area and it is walker-rider relations that you're after, spend some time out at the pathway talking to walkers about keeping left and keeping their pets under control. For bike riders, take a stash of bells with you, plus screw drivers and make sure that bike riders have bells on their bikes. Talk to them also and get their opinions. If people see someone making an effort, most of the users will improve their habits or give you constructive feedback on the design and operation of the infrastructure.

[Roinik]

Velomobiles??

My rotovelo in Sydney...

I see that the battery powered grinders are fairly cheap and can easily rectify the issue. Just wear similar work clothes to the council workers, plus a reflective vest and not one person will query your being there. If someone does, you make up a line like "We've had a number of complaints around this installation not being accessible so we're making some adjustments by removing one staple". Most people will buy that if you're nice about it.

[yugyug]

+1 to Roinik's first post immediately above (not do much for the second one ).

U-bars are totally antiquated. Also can be dangerous because cyclists attempt to ride through them at slow speed, causing balance issues. It would be worth checking best practice in the Netherlands, Denmark etc for better alternatives.

[geebee]

Another option that the local council recently implemented on our MUP is to remove the U bar from one side completely as the single bar stops cars still and ther is not a great deal you can do about motor bikes if they want to be idiots.

[Roinik]

This is a great option. No chance of cars getting through. Staples are used as stabilising hand holds. Trees add shade and are on the house side of the footpath so that they don't obstruct vision. The kerb is extended slightly so that sight lines are improved. It is straight, wide and flat. The biggest annoyance is that there is a stop sign opposite where the stop signs should be on the road that goes across the picture (I'm working on the council to change the priority so that bikes don't have to stop).

http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Roini ... sort=3&o=0

[chuckchunder]

Hi Downhill

I've spent some time this morning playing with a tape measure and chalk and my three trikes. So you can look them up if you care they a Catrike 700, a Steintrike Mad Max Evo3 and a Greenspeed Anura.

Using a path width of 2100mm (this seems to be the usual width in Gosnells for concrete paths along the river, in parks and on the roadside) with a chicane arrangement they needed 1200mm, 1100mm and 1370mm respectively. Experience tells me that though the path may be that width there is usually space either side, so then the posts can be closer together as the angel of attack becomes more acute. The width needed between a chicane arrangement will change depending on the available approach space, so I know I can navigate very narrow arrangements if there is sufficient space on approach and departure.

As examples I can navigate through the UWA underpass which has a three U-rail chicane without a problem on both the tadpoles, but not the Anura due to its length. I could not get through those on my Greenspeed GTS due to its wider track compared to the two tadpoles I now have, in spite of its tighter turning circle. I negotiate the chicane on the path between Shelshaw St and Windfield Rd near Melville High School easily, but need to use more than the path width on approach -

https://www.google.com.au/maps/(AT)-32.047 ... g1EhMg!2e0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can not get through the rail crossing where the freight line crosses Kewdale Rd in Kewdale, nor where the railway crosses the Great Northern Hwy in Belhus on any of the trikes.

hope that is of some use.

While simply riding along a local path I have been run off the path, sprayed with sand and rocks, spat on, abused and threatened on numerous occasions by unlawful motorcyclists. I would welcome a chicane similar to the UWA three rail design which would prevent the use of the path by the motorcycles, even if it meant I had to carry the trike over it to get through.

[Baalzamon]

Here is a design which was very painful for my trike to get thru. Like impossible unless the 1st horizontal rail has been vandal. I have to get off my bike almost to get thru there as well.

[chuckchunder]

ah yeah, couldn't get the trikes through that, the UWA one has less overlap. the knuckle draggers around here would have cut that wire fence before you could say "nicely tensioned" to get around.