Living with a velomobile

John Lewis
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Wed May 16, 2012 10:41 pm

Well it seems that the velo really is faster even with my worn out engine.

I went into town today and back. On the way in I went straight down the highway and averaged 21 kmh door to door. On my trike that would have been about 12 kmh and 15 if I was lucky on the two wheel swb.

I was a bit slower on the way back because I went a different way and used a bit of dual use path as I didn't want to hold up traffic on a steep uphill bit. Just as well as I almost didn't make it. I need much lower gears for sure. None the less I managed an overall average of 18 kmh so pretty satisfied. Total of only about 12 km or so.

My top speed on a bit of downhill was 50 kmh again and I wobbled just as bad as the last time. I am a bit unsteady anyway as my hands shake a bit and the speed makes it worse. Don't have that trouble on the trike even with an 80 kmh downhill. Heres hoping I improve with practice.

Managed to scrape again today. I think this will be inevitable around this town the way the build speed humps. They call them speed cushions would you believe. Here they often have rough jutting chunks of granite in them to encourage drivers to slow down more.

With luck tomorrow I'll get a nice long ride in.

John

nitramluap
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Sat May 19, 2012 2:28 pm

John Lewis wrote:Well it seems that the velo really is faster even with my worn out engine.

I went into town today and back. On the way in I went straight down the highway and averaged 21 kmh door to door. On my trike that would have been about 12 kmh and 15 if I was lucky on the two wheel swb.

I was a bit slower on the way back because I went a different way and used a bit of dual use path as I didn't want to hold up traffic on a steep uphill bit. Just as well as I almost didn't make it. I need much lower gears for sure. None the less I managed an overall average of 18 kmh so pretty satisfied. Total of only about 12 km or so.

My top speed on a bit of downhill was 50 kmh again and I wobbled just as bad as the last time. I am a bit unsteady anyway as my hands shake a bit and the speed makes it worse. Don't have that trouble on the trike even with an 80 kmh downhill. Heres hoping I improve with practice.

Managed to scrape again today. I think this will be inevitable around this town the way the build speed humps. They call them speed cushions would you believe. Here they often have rough jutting chunks of granite in them to encourage drivers to slow down more.

With luck tomorrow I'll get a nice long ride in.

John
Great to hear John.

The only advice I can give to minimise scraping on some speed bumps is to take them at a slight angle... or ata slower speed if possible.

As for the steering: at high speeds I don't 'twist' the steering column at all. I use it like a boat tiller (billy cart steerer) and keep it stable against my body/belly while making simple and small left-right movements. Moving it right turns the velomobile left of course as you have discovered - like a billy cart.

At very high speeds I find this imperative as you only need the tiniest of steering inputs.

As you get better at judging corners, hills, etc you will find your average speeds continue to rise. It takes a while to learn how to effectively conserve energy in a 30kg velomobile. Once you do though, it is extremely satisfying. :)

Regards,

Paul
My bike is heavier than your bike. :D

John Lewis
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Sat May 19, 2012 8:52 pm

Hi Paul,
30 kg Velo! When I tow the dog with the trike I have 14.5 kg of trailer, 20 kg of trike and 18 kg of dog. :D . The trike fortunately has some very low gears and the dog can run if need be. Most of the bikes/ trikes I built were around 25 kg anyway but again lower gears than the Mango. I'll have to compare the mango and LWB lowracer on the same bit of road some day. I know the lowracer is pretty fast for as long as I can keep it up.
A bit of good news is I have mostly sorted out the tensioner catching problem. Harry said that shorties can only get perhaps two gears when in 30 ring. That worked well enough except when I forgot and crunched it a couple of times. It was always a worry in the back of my mind and stopped me from enjoying the ride as much as I might.

Today I decided to tackle it a different way. I moved the BB forward as far as was necessary to stop the tensioner snagging the big ring. I then moved the seat forward to match. It is a bit far forward but I'll live with that for the moment. My shoulders are level (fore and aft) with the bulge where the bolts to hold the top are. I'll have to pad it a bit but that's OK.

The control stick is a whisker close. I reclined the seat a bit and that helped but I might need to shorten it (the stick). I'd still like to raise the seat a touch but its as high as it will go. I'll leave it be for a while and see how I adjust.

Now at least I can go out for a ride without worrying about jambing things up. It was quite frustrating and I was about to put the machine in the shed and leave it until a solution was found.

I'm a bit disappointed with Sinner there. They knew my height, knew the problem and didn't tell me ahead. I might have gone with a Dual Drive for instance had I known or even a different velo. I think they need to find a solution to the problem anyway. Buy a 30 speed machine and be told you can only use 22 of them. Imagine if it was a road bike I was buying from LBS.
To be fair of course, If I could have gone to the factory for set up they would probably have sorted it out just fine. For me here its trial and error.

John

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Riggsbie
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Riggsbie » Sat May 19, 2012 9:28 pm

Hmmmmm.... Not good John..... There must be a solution ?
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John Lewis
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Sat May 19, 2012 10:46 pm

Yep. I need to get some longer legs grafted on.

I'm continuing to look at it and sooner or later I'll dream something up.
Now I do have all 30 gears and so I'm happier.

Here's how it was catching. The trick is to move the BB further away but then you need longer legs or move the seat forward. Thats what I did. Not far really only about 30 to 40 mm forward. The BB a bit less because the seat runs up a sloping tube.

If the chain comes off or the rear deraileur swivels as it can then that tensioner will still hit the ring. I'd have to go quite a bit further forward to prevent that. Just hope I'm not pedalling furiously if it happens.

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John

nitramluap
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Sun May 20, 2012 6:43 am

John Lewis wrote:Yep. I need to get some longer legs grafted on.

I'm continuing to look at it and sooner or later I'll dream something up.
Now I do have all 30 gears and so I'm happier.

Here's how it was catching. The trick is to move the BB further away but then you need longer legs or move the seat forward. Thats what I did. Not far really only about 30 to 40 mm forward. The BB a bit less because the seat runs up a sloping tube.

If the chain comes off or the rear deraileur swivels as it can then that tensioner will still hit the ring. I'd have to go quite a bit further forward to prevent that. Just hope I'm not pedalling furiously if it happens.

Image

John
Hi John,

What they need to do is just put a limiter on the frame to prevent the bottom bracket from being moved so far aft that it can touch the large chainring.

When I received my Mango I never touched the bottom bracket, I only adjusted the seat position. I probably sit quite forward too but I don't have anyone to compare my position to and it works for me.

As for the gears, you're not really missing out on much gearing in reality if you only get the two gears on the small chainring (and the two larger sprockets on the mid-drive)... My gear-inch range is about 33 to 121 (roughly) and the overlap occurs when I'm on the 4th sprocket on the rear.

In other words, the combination of small chainring and 4th sprocket on the mid-drive is identical to being on the middle chainring and the largest sprocket. That is, I only ever use 4 gears when on the small chain ring anyway. Once I get to gear 2 or 3 I then shift onto the middle chainring.

So, despite it being annoying, you're not missing any gears of significance and you still have your lowest gears.

Another thing, have you room to remove some chain links? That may also be your problem, preventing the jockey mechanism from swinging forward too far, particularly if you have moved the bottom bracket closer. This may solve your problem but only if you can do so and still reach your highest and lowest gears. As I didn't need to move my bottom bracket from the factory my chain was just he right length. Terry had to add quite a few links in contrast.

Let us know how you go. You should also get that smaller mid-drive sprocket and install that too. That will lower all your gears.

Let us know how you go.

Paul
My bike is heavier than your bike. :D

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Sun May 20, 2012 7:09 am

John Lewis wrote:Hi Paul,
30 kg Velo! When I tow the dog with the trike I have 14.5 kg of trailer, 20 kg of trike and 18 kg of dog. :D .
I'm talking about the empty weight... and in combination with an aerodynamic bike. Few bikes have these combined.

My cargo bike weighs 40kg and that's with nothing in it... and it is rated to take 200kg. The most I've had was a 70kg load. It's about as aerodynamic as a brick so I don't ride it like the velo - there is no point trying to attack rolling hills at speed, unlike in the velomobile.

Ultimately weight is only an issue when accelerating or climbing and that can largely be negated with the right gears anyway. I smile quietly when I pass people spinning in full kit on their 5kg carbon TT bikes uphill on my 25kg old school 3-speed steel Dutch granny bike. They don't seem to like it...

The smaller mid-drive sprocket and the removal of a chain link or two may well address your concerns. I'd be very reluctant to cut down the steering column though... Mine sits just below my xiphisternum.
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John Lewis
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Sun May 20, 2012 5:18 pm

Hi Paul,
I was aware of the not missing much in gears as I did a spread sheet to show me what I had and what the jumps were. Admittedly I used nominal 20" wheel but near enough.
The only problem occurred if I forgot and overshifted.

The change I made now allows me to use all of gears with the small ring. I suspect though that the chain may be just touching the middle ring as it passes it. I may need to move the BB a whisker further or move the tensioner slightly sideways if that is possible.
I need to rig a stop so the tensioner can't jamb if the chain breaks or comes off even though it is probably unlikely. Just my belt and braces approach.

I rode this morning and gave it a good try out and it works OK. I d need to adjust the derailleur a whisker as the changing is a little erratic now. I much prefer non index shifters.

As delivered my BB was back toward me as far as it would go. It was hard up against the weld. I've moved it forward about 25 -30 mm I think. That was just enough. To move it further I'd need to add chain.

I had ordered the smaller mid drive cogs 22 and 24. I see they had them on my order as 22 and 30 but they were not sent with the mango so I am waiting to get them. I think the 22 will be going on.

I think I can recline the seat a bit more now. I left it more upright. It might also be possible to drop the seat one hole at the front.
The steering column for me is about 20 mm above the bottom of the xiphisternum. Laying the seat back a bit will change that.

John

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Sun May 20, 2012 6:02 pm

John Lewis wrote:Hi Paul,
I was aware of the not missing much in gears as I did a spread sheet to show me what I had and what the jumps were. Admittedly I used nominal 20" wheel but near enough.
The only problem occurred if I forgot and overshifted.

The change I made now allows me to use all of gears with the small ring. I suspect though that the chain may be just touching the middle ring as it passes it. I may need to move the BB a whisker further or move the tensioner slightly sideways if that is possible.
I need to rig a stop so the tensioner can't jamb if the chain breaks or comes off even though it is probably unlikely. Just my belt and braces approach.

I rode this morning and gave it a good try out and it works OK. I d need to adjust the derailleur a whisker as the changing is a little erratic now. I much prefer non index shifters.

As delivered my BB was back toward me as far as it would go. It was hard up against the weld. I've moved it forward about 25 -30 mm I think. That was just enough. To move it further I'd need to add chain.

I had ordered the smaller mid drive cogs 22 and 24. I see they had them on my order as 22 and 30 but they were not sent with the mango so I am waiting to get them. I think the 22 will be going on.

I think I can recline the seat a bit more now. I left it more upright. It might also be possible to drop the seat one hole at the front.
The steering column for me is about 20 mm above the bottom of the xiphisternum. Laying the seat back a bit will change that.

John
Well, it sounds like you're getting closer to your ideal position. It took me a few weeks to get it right!

I'm surprised that they configured it with the bottom bracket in such a position that it would contact the tensioner pulley mechanism... Probably an oversight as they couldn't find a short Dutchman to test ride it! :)

When I visited the factory (small shed, really) I felt like a toddler as they were all so tall!

Hopefully you can get the seat recline into a position where the tiller feels more natural. I sometimes ride with it held up, closer to the body of the Mango, particularly when twitchiness isn't an issue - low speeds, etc.

The smaller mid-drive sprocket should make a difference. Is 22 the smallest they offer? I think it may be. You could also add a larger sprocket to the rear wheel although I'm not certain that this is possible. Sinner would know I guess.
My bike is heavier than your bike. :D

John Lewis
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Mon May 21, 2012 12:06 am

nitramluap wrote: The smaller mid-drive sprocket should make a difference. Is 22 the smallest they offer? I think it may be. You could also add a larger sprocket to the rear wheel although I'm not certain that this is possible. Sinner would know I guess.
Sinner advised me that the smallest mid drive cog is 22 and the rear wheel sprocket is always 18 when I inquired.

John

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Riggsbie
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Riggsbie » Fri May 25, 2012 10:36 pm

Hey John,

Another week has gone, so is your Mango adapting to you better now ?

What progress in setting it up to your liking ?

Riggsy
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John Lewis
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Sat May 26, 2012 10:19 pm

Riggsbie wrote:Hey John,

Another week has gone, so is your Mango adapting to you better now ?

What progress in setting it up to your liking ?

Riggsy
Hi Riggsbie,
Yes, I managed to get the tensioner a bit better. Moved the BB to just clear and moved the seat forward. Probably about 30 -35 mm or so. I do need to rig a stop because if the chain breaks or comes off the tensioner will still hit the ring.

I had to lay the seat back a bit to get a bit more room for the steering column. Reckon it should be called the joystick like in a plane.

It is not too bad now. May need the odd tweak but pretty good.
I've managed just over 100km in the last few days. It gets pretty squirrilly at speed but I'm getting better and downhill at 50 was reasonable. First few times I was all over the lane.

I was trying it out up a slight incline of about 2%. I got it up to 30 kmh but didn't last long. Up our 4% street I managed 22. On the steep hill in town I was crawling at about 5 and almost blowing my knees.

I was never very fast. My trike average is 12 to 13 kmh. The velo which is a bit heavier I'm managing around 15. That was in traffic with starting and stopping, roundabouts etc.
One day I went out with Helen and she had the dog in the trailer. I'd shoot past and then wait or else just plod along. Killed the average something cruel.

I still have an odd clicking noise that occurs about twice per pedal revolution. If I stop pedaling, pedal back a bit and start pedaling it often goes away. It sounds to be behind me but I'm sure it can't be. I've checked the usual suspects with no luck. Often when I start out it's not there but starts up when I have to pedal harder.

There is quite a bit of chain noise that may be from the chain tube or because the chain is at a sharpish angle on the tensioner due to the shortness. Then again it could just be its all amplified by the shell.

One thing I found was that one of the front shocks was looser. At the top there is a rubber/composition washer, a metal washer, nut and lock nut. On the right side it was loose enough I could twist the washers easily like a tuning knob on a radio. The other side not. I tightened it up to about the same tension as the left side. I wonder how tight it should be?
I had hoped it might kill the click but no luck.

I think I need the lower gearing for round here. I had ordered the 22 and 24 mid drive cogs but they didn't show up. I emailed Sinner but no reply as yet. I think I'll try the 22 first up.
That should give nominal 26 Gi instead of 30 GI. Actually they will both be a bit less because I calculated that on a nominal 20" wheel and it will really be 19 point something.

I got caught in the rain so recalled Paul mentioning using the skirt. I put it on along with the flevo roof and stayed pretty dry which was nice. The only snag was I could barely see over the edge of the skirt. I need to grow a bit. :D .

What I need to do is go out on a good long ride. None of the rides so far have been over about 20 km with stops. A good long non stop ride will soon tell me if I have it dialed in.

Hope yours and Ben's turn up soon.

John

nitramluap
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Sun May 27, 2012 6:51 am

John Lewis wrote:I still have an odd clicking noise that occurs about twice per pedal revolution. If I stop pedaling, pedal back a bit and start pedaling it often goes away. It sounds to be behind me but I'm sure it can't be. I've checked the usual suspects with no luck. Often when I start out it's not there but starts up when I have to pedal harder.

There is quite a bit of chain noise that may be from the chain tube or because the chain is at a sharpish angle on the tensioner due to the shortness. Then again it could just be its all amplified by the shell.
I had a click like this, althought it was once per pedal stroke, and the culprit war the cadence sensor on the left crank arm. If it is timed regularly with the pedals it surely must be somewhere down that way?
For me to would only occur under load as this was just enough to move the crank closer to the sensor.
The body shell of the velomobile reflects sounds so it can be very difficult to work out where noises are coming from! It is also why your chain is noisy - it probably isn't but as all the sound is contained (and your ears are lower in the Mango than mine) that's largely what you hear.
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Joeblake » Sun May 27, 2012 10:06 am

nitramluap wrote: The body shell of the velomobile reflects sounds so it can be very difficult to work out where noises are coming from! It is also why your chain is noisy - it probably isn't but as all the sound is contained (and your ears are lower in the Mango than mine) that's largely what you hear.
Many years ago I fitted a full touring fairing to my Triumph motorcycle and it reflected so much (previously inaudible) engine noise I thought it was about to explode. However, I got used to it.

Joe
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nitramluap
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Sun May 27, 2012 10:25 am

I should also add that when I ride over a paved surface or cobblestones I can't hear a damn thing! :-D
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby burnt » Sun May 27, 2012 12:17 pm

Paul, I've worked out that's why you always ride with earphones in-I wear them sometimes myself, it certainly is nicer listening to music than the cacophony and not really dangerous. With the mirrors you are very aware of the traffic scenario behind.

nitramluap
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Sun May 27, 2012 12:31 pm

burnt wrote:Paul, I've worked out that's why you always ride with earphones in-I wear them sometimes myself, it certainly is nicer listening to music than the cacophony and not really dangerous. With the mirrors you are very aware of the traffic scenario behind.
Indeed. My situational awareness is very good with mirrors, etc.
On rough surfaces and when travelling about 35km/h (which is often) the noise, particularly from the wind is very loud. The earbud headphones are helpful as they dull the wind noise and I can still hear around them with the music playing (I don't have it too loud). When I'm on smooth bikeways (like along the River) I can actually hear reasonably well, particularly with the hood on and visor down (no wind noise). On rough surfaces it is a different matter entirely!
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Sun May 27, 2012 12:53 pm

Being a bit deaf has some advantages then.
I'll check the cadence sensor Paul but I don't think thats it. I suspect its somehow associated with the tensioner and the chain angle.
What I'd like to do is make a tensioner with sliding toothed wheels so they can always line up. When on the rear that happened automatically as it moves with the shifter. If the wheels could slide and the cage was a bit wider they would then line up and I suspect kill some noise.
Some noise I have is the chain on the edge of the chain tube which is just cut off square. When I make chain tubes I heat the end and then push the end of my plumb bob in. That makes a nice tapered entry and helps a lot. I don't want to have to remove the tubes to do that at present but might get around to it later.
I should have mentioned in the last post, If I've not done so previously, that I did have my best speed average ever for any of my bikes in the velo a while back.
I got a good run into town. There may have been a bit of tailwind and its down as I come down to near sea level. Anyway coming in I averaged 22.1 kmh.
Going home I did a bit on a dual use path and it slowed me so the overall average was around 18 kmh.

Since I moved the seat I've not done as well. May need to be a bit closer to the pedals or perhaps I have the seating too open (laid back). I seem to recall an optimum angle between body and legs being talked about at some time. A bit of video, I tried shows head rocking but I see that on a lot of velo vids. Might be a case of reaching for pedals too much.

On dual use paths. Here they put a tight S in them, more like a Z that takes them down the street. The idea I think is to cause cyclists to have to dismount. Doesn't stop the kids as they just jump and go straight across on their BMX's.
It is dangerous in that cars often have to have turned before they see you whereas if they went straight across you are visible as the come up to the turn. Also the law says that if you are crossing the cars must give way I think. Not that I'd trust that to happen.
Problem with the velo is that at each sharp turn. Four of them at each crossing I have to stop and do 3 point turns to get around. I doubt that complaining to the council will help.

Their other one is pairs of staggered U bars to stop cars and motorcycles on the path. Recumbent trikes, LWBs, Tandems and velos simply cant negotiate them.

Enough with the complaining. I'm going out for a ride.

John

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby nitramluap » Mon May 28, 2012 8:13 am

John Lewis wrote:Being a bit deaf has some advantages then.
I'll check the cadence sensor Paul but I don't think thats it. I suspect its somehow associated with the tensioner and the chain angle.
What I'd like to do is make a tensioner with sliding toothed wheels so they can always line up. When on the rear that happened automatically as it moves with the shifter. If the wheels could slide and the cage was a bit wider they would then line up and I suspect kill some noise.
Hi John,

Yes, I see what you mean about the jockey wheels in the tensioner. I suppose the reason I don't have any noise here is because I'm mostly on the large chainring which it is quite well lined up with the tensioner's pulleys.

Cheers,

Paul
My bike is heavier than your bike. :D

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Rhubarb » Mon May 28, 2012 8:16 pm

Here's a good video showing the speed advantages of a velomobile on a downhill.

Check him pass the roadies at about 0:57 and 1:23.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... WHakeD7uA0

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Mon May 28, 2012 11:02 pm

Crows and Velos

Rode down to the feed place to get 10 kg of bunny pellets. I wanted to see how it would affect the ride. They fitted in back fine and I think the Mango was better for the extra weight on the back wheel. I didn't notice any real difference going up the hill back home either.

But I digress.

When I arrived I pulled up under a tree in front of the store. I heard the crow but thought nothing of it.
Next thing I was hit by a large and sloppy T#$D. Yuk. All over the bonnet.
I was lucky. 40 cm further forward and it would have landed in the cockpit and all over me.
Not too sure what the crow had against the Mango. :mrgreen:

John

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il padrone
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby il padrone » Mon May 28, 2012 11:36 pm

Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

John Lewis
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Tue May 29, 2012 11:23 pm

il padrone wrote:Crows like mangos
How about that.
This blighter obviously didn't. :D

John

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Tue May 29, 2012 11:35 pm

nitramluap wrote: Hi John,

Yes, I see what you mean about the jockey wheels in the tensioner. I suppose the reason I don't have any noise here is because I'm mostly on the large chainring which it is quite well lined up with the tensioner's pulleys.

Cheers,

Paul
Whereas I am seldom in the big chain ring. I think the 30 and 42 are high enough for me. I could do with an even smaller one. 42 30 22 perhaps.

I've been reading of some of the speeds the guys do on the level in MPH. I'd be pleased to do those numbers in Kmh but it's unlikely.

I'll be pretty happy if I can average 15 kmh over distance . Current lack of low enough gearing knocks me up pretty quick. &0+ years might have something to do with it.

I read that Harry Leiben had removed his chain tube. Probably not the return one though and that might help lower noise and drag.
I notice considerable drag in the system. It's way more than on any of my other bikes/trikes. Must be losing a watt or three there I think and I need all I can get.

The clicking noise persists. Its not the cadence sensor although it was close enough to touch.
I thought it was the wire that holds the chain tube near the idler. I could see where it was rubbing on the aluminium tube. I put a bit of smooth velcro there but it made no difference.

Next will be to check the bearings in the mid drive. Not much left to check after that.
John

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Tue May 29, 2012 11:41 pm

Lube
I note in the owners manual it suggests giving the chain a dose of lube every 500km and also a drop to the front shocks. It mentions Morgan Blue oil and says some is supplied. That may have been but none was supplied to me so perhaps the manual is out of date.
Anyway Paul and Terry, what are you using. I don't think Rock and Roll Gold would be quite the deal here particularly for the shocks.

John

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