Derailleur gears? Hub gears?

[il padrone]

http://thenextchallenge.org/cycle-toure ... hub-gears/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Quite a surprise realy !

[outnabike]

HI IP,
I reckon it all to do with cost as well, but I find it hard to understand why we still use chains and cogs.

We talk of Health and safety and then use an antiquated system of gearing from grand dads bike of years ago.
Industrially speaking imagine a sealed hub spinning, against a stack of un-covered cogs at say a metre high. The thing is a trap and needs covering. You wouldn't get away with it for five minutes.
And yet when a race is on and 20 blokes get into a tangle of sharp spinning gears , we say "that's racing"

It looks like what it is, a mass of dirt collecting, sharp obstacle grabbing junk, that they can only modernise by putting an electric changer on them.

What is wrong with placing the gearing where the BB is and having a drive shaft to the rear wheel all protected? If BMW could do it with motor bikes why are we not going down that path in the modern era? It sure aint cost as the top end open geared bikes aren't cheap.
Is it weight? Probably, but take away the chain, the cogs and the BB, and use that in the gearing would deflect some of that weight. The rear stay could carry the shaft and that is more weight gone.
Not being smart here just saying... Yes I know they are out there but why not more common?

[Calvin27]

As an ex'hub gear owner here are some problems:

- Limited gear range for the affordable variety. 8sp alfine was about 300% 11 speed was about 400% which is more comparable to geared bike but look at that price. Rohloff is the granddaddy but that is worth a bike in its own right.
- Customisation of gears is lacking, you pretty much need a new hub for any changes in gear ratio. Roadies complain about cadence.
- MTBrs are not sure about the robustness of the hub. Super low gearing is not practical. The hub gears hate the massive torque and the hub stress is not proven either.
- Linking systems are still in infancy. A drive shaft is good but has some design problems that probably could be resolved. Belt drives are a bit more mature, but have some niggling problems, namely moving away from common vertical dropouts or eccentric bottom bracket. Then there is the split in the frame. Some die hard cyclist will object to this.
- Limited drop bar options. Versa's stuff is good but some complain about it's ergonomics.
- Replacement costs. People who ride a lot hate the idea that after wearing their hub, they will have to rebuild the wheel. Compare this with the cost of a new cassette and chain. This is anecdotal, but I definitely felt a difference between my used alfine and a mates brand new one (same bike).

They are not unsolvable problems, but the design and standardisation is not quite there yet. Some quick fixes might be:

- Disconnect the hub from the spokes so you can just pull it out and stick a new one in. This should be easy to design but might add some weight.
- More variety of hubs, maybe have a double road, double MTB for starters. Make the road have closer higher gears and the MTB lower wider with up to 200mm rotor capacity.
- Most of all there needs to be more competition to shimano. SRAM had their own thing for a while but it was impossible to buy and they didn't really try to promote it. Maybe Microshift can inject some competition. The alfine prices are pretty high which is why you'd struggle to see
- Carbon fibre - it solves everything.
- Stick some pro athletes on it - UCI would have issues with this?
- the biggest issues is the standard frame with vertical drops needs to change to something else. I previously looked at trying to find a track style 135mm dropout with disc tabs and a threaded (bit to adjust chainstay length). Something like this needs to become the norm for hubs to take off. Look at all the hub gear bikes at the moment and you will notice they either have the horizontal slider arrangement (expensive) or an eccentric bottom bracket (slightly more expensive and has its own issues). An alternative is to make chain/belt tensioners that are not so ugly. Some of the SS stuff could really do with a steve jobs edit.

[RonK]

As the owner of a particularly overrated and overpriced brand of internally geared hub, I find it quite easy to understand the majority preference for "antiquated" chains and cogs

[outnabike]

As the owner of a particularly overrated and overpriced brand of internally geared hub, I find it quite easy to understand the majority preference for "antiquated" chains and cogs

I read your thoughts and I know what you mean. You certainly have a good case for cogs etc. Cogs is what I ride and it is ok. Just saying, if they can design some moon buggy thingo, why cant the make a modern functional bicycle from all the engineering knowledge on the planet?
I know it's a volume industry but I would have thought that some one would get the ball rolling on a decent design.The whole thing looks like a mobile pencil sharpener, with a stupid chain tensioner made of crap that bends in case of a prang. Yes I know fall to the left...

If the chain comes off, there goes the chain stay if made from fibre materials.So to allow for this engineering shortfall we wrap an additional guard over the chainstay. If you get really lucky the tensioner gets into a blue with the spokes and is all bad news from there.
I know its not all bad news and when making a point we always go to extremes as I have here. Just wondering that's all.

[il padrone]

As an ex'hub gear owner here are some problems:

- Limited gear range for the affordable variety. 8sp alfine was about 300% 11 speed was about 400% which is more comparable to geared bike but look at that price. Rohloff is the granddaddy but that is worth a bike in its own right.
- Customisation of gears is lacking, you pretty much need a new hub for any changes in gear ratio. Roadies complain about cadence.

My son rode in his first road race last weekend - a time trial. He began in E grade with Blackburn on the Yarra Boulevard. 5 riders. He came second, 7 seconds behind the leader and 52 seconds ahead of the next rider.


He did this on his only practical bike - the Giant Sedona, 20 yo steel MTB set up for touring, with lights (dynamo running as TT rules demad a tail-light on), mudguards, racks, kickstand...........and........ a Rohloff hub

- MTBrs are not sure about the robustness of the hub. Super low gearing is not practical. The hub gears hate the massive torque and the hub stress is not proven either.

A friend of mine spinning fast up a 20% grade in the Nicholson State Forest. The hub gear can handle a pretty damn low gear - something south of 17".



Please do not lampoon the gent for dress sense nor bike choice. The frame is just one that he has built specifically to suit his build and riding needs. The Rohloff has been doing service since I first struggled up a steep Vic alpine climb (hoofing it) in 1997 to watch John spin right on by The hub is still in service, many tens of thousands of kilometres later.

- Linking systems are still in infancy. A drive shaft is good but has some design problems that probably could be resolved. Belt drives are a bit more mature, but have some niggling problems, namely moving away from common vertical dropouts or eccentric bottom bracket. Then there is the split in the frame. Some die hard cyclist will object to this.

Shaft-drive. One of the Five Horsemen of the Cycling Apocalypse Been 'in development' since the 1890s. Frequently re-invented. It's never going to happen.

Belt-drive has other issues. Suffice to say that after an initial 'WOW' factor and the gleaming newness, I have come to the conclusion that the belt is a solution looking for a problem. The good durable and easy-to-work-with chain will do me for quite a long time yet.

- Disconnect the hub from the spokes so you can just pull it out and stick a new one in. This should be easy to design but might add some weight.

Removing the Rohloff (for replacement mainly) is a relatively simple process. About eight torx screws removed and the complete hub internals just pull neatly right out of the shell.

[mikedufty]

I got a hub geared belt drive bike for commuting a couple of years ago. It has been a bit of a disappointment really. Mostly because the belt requires very precise tension and alignment to run quietly without slipping. The best I can manage it to have it only squeak under heavy load (steep hills). The hub gear (Alfine is nice and smooth in operation, and it is nice to be able to change when stationary sometimes, but it has started to play up. After only 6500km it cannot be trusted not to skip/slip when loaded hard. If this happens while standing it can result in a swerve into traffic. Life has not been a lot more than you would get out of a chain and cassette. Looking online for solutions it seems a number of people say you can not stand on the pedals with the hub gears without risking damage. A simple reliable derailleur and chain set up is now looking quite attractive.
The plus side is that the belt adjustment only needs to be done every few thousand km after a puncture or tyre change, and I don't have to oil the chain.

[Calvin27]

Belt-drive has other issues. Suffice to say that after an initial 'WOW' factor and the gleaming newness, I have come to the conclusion that the belt is a solution looking for a problem. The good durable and easy-to-work-with chain will do me for quite a long time yet.

Dude, you just had to tell me again how good a rohloff is... *puts liver for sale on ebay. But seriously that's part of the problem. No one has been able to make it cheap enough. Alfine 8 is good but too many limitations and slightly too expensive.

I'm a fan of belt drive but only for commuting though. The lack of grease is a real plus, but like you said, I'd fail to see why you'd use it in a race unless it was for weight savings (that possibly get eroded when you add the split link).

[outnabike]

This is what we need ...people that can take an idea and improve it. This bloke doesn't take any thing laying down.
http://www.wimp.com/hydraulicchair/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tmac100]

I have mixed feelings about internal geared hubs...

I toured AU twice (with my custom built Arvon1) with derailleur and 3 chainrings. Minimal issues - just the COST of carting it to and from Australia. In an attempt to overcome the cost I had a totally "dissassemblable" bike built with 20" wheels and it fit into a 20" X 20" X 12" box. I started with it (the Arvon2) in late June from Perth riding east and didn't even get to Brookton. The SA 8 speed hub became a boat anchor. It kept slipping out of the bottom 4 gears or got stuck and I could not shift it. When the cable started popping off the shift lever I knew there was major trouble. The shops in Perth said to "nurture it" which was their way of saying they knew NOTHING about how to repair it. The SA distributor's mechanix in Richmond Victoria said they had not much luck with that hub.... They also suggested that I replace the SA with a Shimano internally geared hub. Yeh sure - just spent several $K on a bike and now spend maybe $500 on another hub... Once burned, ...

Oh well, rent a car and throw the gear in the back and travel around WA. That was the plan and that is what happened - for 7353 km with the rental Corolla. The bicycle fit nicely in the back and I didn't put it back into the box until I flew out of Australia. Saw a LOT of WA and did a bunch of wild camping so all was not lost. Taking the Indian Pacific from Perth sure was faster than bicycling

OTOH, there have been few reported issues in Canada where the bike was built! At Christmas I return to Canada with the hub to see what SA-Canada will do with it. I have now lost confidence in that bit of kit

Next year I return to AU with the Arvon1 and will hopefully and finally ride (June-Aug) from Perth towards Adelaide (actually Peterborough SA). In hindsight, I should have purchased a Rolhoff instead of the SA. Hindsight is always 20-....

[ldrcycles]

As il padrone said, shaft drives have been tried, found wanting and abandoned. Modern manufacturing may address some of the issues but it is still a fundamentally flawed design. Nothing will beat the efficiency of chain and cogs, and as far as safety goes fitting a chain case to a hub geared arrangement presents no trouble.

[Leaf T]

Given the issues I've had with my hub this might be surprising but I still think the Rohloff is excellent for touring or a deluxe commuter if you can lock it up securely.
As RonK stated it is expensive and it can be over rated but there are fan boys for most things these days. I won't go too far into the positives here as they're better worded elsewhere but they are all pretty much true. It is a very good system at a price.

The negatives for me was I had severe oil leak issues and then the shell flange cracked at the spoke. The dreaded built Monday hub I guess. Rohloff fixed it all at no charge to me other than postage to QLD. Was a hassle not having my bike but it was sorted out in the end and turnaround from Rohloff was very good. Rohloff customer service both here and in Germany were excellent.

[chillimagnum]

Hope the country has a reliable postal service. Bix box worth over $1500 sent to Germany.

There was a comment in another thread about the seals possibly leaking if the hub is laid on its side. Is there any way to prevent this such as for travel? Or do we need the airport checkin sticker "This way up. Do not lay flat. Rohloff inside.".

[il padrone]

It was I who made that comment. It is not a huge issue - quite OK to lay the bike down, just if you leave it that way overnight say, you may have some leakage. Not a huge problem anyway, as the hub can run well until the next service having lost all oil - enough oil will remain on all the internal surfaces to keep it running. We are talking about a pretty tiny amount of oil also - I fill it with 15ml. My bike travelled by air to Europe and back (as have many others) and no oil leak occurred.

The stickers or labelling of 'this way up' & 'do not lay flat' are very advisable for all bikes, for other reasons.

[Wingnut]

For me, the thing I love about my Rohloff is I don't need to clean the gears and chain all the time, the initial cost should outweigh the cost of cassettes, chains and derailleurs...the lack of maintenance and durability is great.

The only real downer is the weight penalty but the good definitely outweighs the bad...

[outnabike]

I still remember my three speed Sturmy Archer gears as a kid. I did many miles on it and only ever had to put one new cable on it. We had no second thought to ride from Dandenong to Luna park in St kilda.And it was on the Princes Highway as well. (Can't ever remember being blasted either)

A mate had the racing gears of the time and had to adjust things all the time. But as kids we did not have much knowledge of their adjustments.

[Leaf T]

I still remember my three speed Sturmy Archer gears as a kid. I did many miles on it and only ever had to put one new cable on it. We had no second thought to ride from Dandenong to Luna park in St kilda.And it was on the Princes Highway as well. (Can't ever remember being blasted either)

A mate had the racing gears of the time and had to adjust things all the time. But as kids we did not have much knowledge of their adjustments.

I wish we had a "like" button on the forum after reading that.

[il padrone]

A friend of mine had a 5-speed Sturmey. That was really cool (he must have had rich parents )

[Shred11]

My first bike (a dragster) had a Shimano three speed hub, back when the Shimano didn't carry the street cred it has now. The only maintenance it needed was a few drops of oil in the little oil port and occasionally I had to adjust the cable tension. You adjusted the tension until a red line etched in the metal lined up in a little window.

My main concern with modern hub gears is efficiency though. How much of your effort is lost just in the hub itself, compared to a derailleur?

[il padrone]

From Rohloff



The Rohloff is the white band, the derailleur gear (3x8) is the broader grey band - broader because the measurement looked at new drivetrains and the drivetrain after 1000 kms. The derailleur suffered greater efficiency losses as a result of wear.

How much of your effort is lost just in the hub itself, compared to a derailleur?

In my subjective experience when riding with friends on derailleur bikes - nothing that is perceptible. Riders on derailleur bikes ride faster than me (but so do some on Rohloffs). Riders on Rohloffs ride slower than me too (but so do many on derailleur bikes).

Tyre pressure and brake rub would be of a much greater consequence than the Rohloff hub. Mind you I'm not suggesting it is a racing hub - but it is very durable, low maintenance and easy to use. Great for touring.

[RonK]

Haha - you would do very well to take Rohloff's marketing hype with a very large pinch of salt.

I can definitely feel the drag from my hub. Add to that rough shifting and very loud noise (even after the 5000km oil change) and there's a couple of claims debunked straight away. A quick web search will reveal issues with bearings, oil leaks and flange failures - so much for the reliability claim too.

And personally I don't find the even spacing between the gears particularly helpful.

Overhyped, overpriced and overrated. I can afford it easily, but wouldn't waste my money on another.

[il padrone]

You keep harping on about these trials you've had RonK, and your displeasure with your Rohloff. It is a real shame that things did not work out for you.

I can definitely feel the drag from my hub. Add to that rough shifting and very loud noise (even after the 5000km oil change) and there's a couple of claims debunked straight away.

Strange enough my experience has now been just over 21,000 kms. Yes the hub is a heavy hub, kinda expected that. However I have found shifting every bit as smooth and quick (in some cases a good bit better) than my derailleur bikes. I will admit I'm not comparing it to top rank Duurace or such, just recent MTB derailleur gears (LX). Noise has long diminished considerably in the lower range and is silent in 7-14. I ride with a lot of friends with derailleur bikes and have no drag concerns - mostly I ride and roll at least as fast.

Oil leaks - generally inconsequential and fairly rare as a problem. Just put 15 ml instead of 25 ml in (25 is really too much, hence the leakage).
Flange failures - very rare. They may occur due to an incorrect wheel build - regardless it is a straight warranty replacement of the shell.
Bearing failure - that is a new one that I've not heard about.

But I do see my friend John still riding the Rohloff I first saw him riding sometime back around 1997 - I think his hub serial no. is down around 15000 (my son's Rohloff purchased earlier this year is number 190969).

Just my 2c (and that of many others I talk with).

[Wingnut]

They must of seen you coming RonK...

Mine is quiet, smooth and shifts very well...I read more complaints about noisy SRAM drivetrains, Shimano Dura-Ace cassettes breaking and Campagnolo rear derailleurs snapping at the hanger pivot than I hear about Rolhoff hubs having issues...

[RonK]

You keep harping on about these trials you've had RonK, and your displeasure with your Rohloff. Fine, we get it.

And you keep glossing over the very real deficiencies. I get it too - you're in love. But it's not a criticism of you personal choices, just a warning to others that all is not quite so lovely as presented by Rohloff (and fanboys).

Rohloff is marketed and priced as a premium product - for that I expect flawless operation.

Anybody looking at Speedhub needs to carefully consider whether it actually delivers the the value they expect of it.

[RonK]

They must of seen you coming RonK...

Mine is quiet, smooth and shifts very well...I read more complaints about noisy SRAM drivetrains, Shimano Dura-Ace cassettes breaking and Campagnolo rear derailleurs snapping at the hanger pivot than I hear about Rolhoff hubs having issues...

Hardly surprising given there are 66.4% of derailleur systems out there, and that just on touring bikes. But break a derailleur and you can just go to the lbs or even the local tip shop and find a replacement to get you going. Will you be able to do that when the housing of your Rohloff cracks?