Why are my spokes breaking?

[ianganderton]

I've recently brought a 2013 Focus Planet TR 2.0 and I've just had my second spoke pop in the rear wheel for seemingly no reason.

The rear hub is an Alfine 8 with chain drive

The bike is 2 years old and doesn't look to have had much use (brake pads aren't showing any wear). Person I brought it off said it had been kept underground at work for a year not being used.

Both spokes snapped in the middle of the spoke. First time was just after I got the bike, I was riding along a smooth road. I had it repairs at Cheeky Velo in Randwick. Second time was yesterday while waiting at a set of lights on red.

I'm interested in the various causes of spokes breaking. Before this all the spokes I've broken have been because of a trauma to the wheel

Any thoughts?

[MattyK]

Sounds dodgy. Alfine should have lots of spokes and excellent spoke angles.

[Nobody]

Just get the wheel re-spoked with quality double butted spokes. If done correctly it should be a problem solved for a number of years.

[Duck!]

Breaking in the middle is a sign of poor quality spokes. A full rebuild is the best solution.

[find_bruce]

Going with Duck's advice is always a safe bet.

The large flange of the alfine hub and 3 cross spoke lacing can cause an issue with the angle at the rim, BUT that causes the spoke to break at the point where it enters the nipple. Similarly a variety of issues with the wheel build, such as inadequate tension, spoke wind-up, inadequate stress relief, can cause the spoke to break, typically at the j bend.

Breaking mid spoke however, in the absence of impact, says there is a problem with the spoke itself - such as manufacturing defect or corrosion. If 2 are dodgy for either of these reasons, what are the chances of the other 30 being good ?

[ianganderton]

I was figuring that a rebuild was going to be required [emoji17]

The guy in the bike shop suggested corrosion but how could this be in a bike that is to my mind very very young?

What could cause corrosion so soon in the life of a wheel/spoke

Interestingly I have a feeling one of the wheels has been rebuilt. The front has silver nipples, the rear black. Seems unlikely that Focus would have specced this.

[ianganderton]

I've never built a wheel, I've always run a bit scared of spokes n stuff. I feel I should be more competent and maybe the best way to become more competent is to build up a wheel. Would there be any problems with doing an Alfine as a first wheel build?

It's also quite a deep rim

http://www.maddux-wheels.com/Rim-road-sr-300.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[il padrone]

Sapim spokes I'll wager

Spokes do not normally break in the middle ever - always at the hub 'elbow', or less frequently at the nipple on the rim. Sapim had a batch of bad spokes about 5-6 years ago, that got corrosion fracturing and would break while sitting still. I had 5 spokes break on my road bike wheel, while it was on the storage hook, unused for several months.

Check your spokes - do they have little lumps like dirt along them? This is the corrosion; it won't rub off. You will need to get the wheel rebuilt with new spokes.

[queequeg]

Sapim spokes I'll wager

Spokes do not normally break in the middle ever - always at the hub 'elbow', or less frequently at the nipple on the rim. Sapim had a batch of bad spokes about 5-6 years ago, that got corrosion fracturing and would break while sitting still. I had 5 spokes break on my road bike wheel, while it was on the storage hook, unused for several months.

Check your spokes - do they have little lumps like dirt along them? This is the corrosion; it won't rub off. You will need to get the wheel rebuilt with new spokes.

Funnily enough, that's what happened to my front wheel a couple of weeks ago, sapim spokes. There was not even a "ping", the spoke literally just fell apart.

[koshari]

Are these sapim spokes not stainless steel?

[ironhanglider]

Are these sapim spokes not stainless steel?

There was a bad batch a few years ago.

Cheers,

Cameron

[ColinOldnCranky]

find_bruce aluded to the lacing pattern.
If you add one more crossing to the lacing pattern you will likely not have any problem. That will involve replacing all spokes (you will need slightly longer) and a miniscule extra weight.

In my day on performance bikes we typically had two-crossing pattern at the front and three at the rear. Because I carried a lot of weight in my panniers I broke rear spokes a few times mid ride but, as expected, rebuilding with a four-crossing pattern fixed it for ever.

[Nobody]

Are these sapim spokes not stainless steel?

I've had "stainless" spokes corrode before. Ride close enough to salt water and lower spec stainless can corrode. It needs to be a marine grade to be immune, but then it might not be strong enough.

Having said that, the double butted DT silver spokes I replaced the previous unknown black "stainless" spokes with haven't corroded yet. So quality appears to matter.

[il padrone]

Sapim spokes were breaking because the stainless steel was flawed in some way. My wheelbuilder rebuilt my wheels at no cost, no questions asked, once he saw it. He would have then chased his distributor for the Sapim warranty.

Re 4-cross spoking pattern - I used to use it back in the day, but my wheelbuilder built 2-cross front and rear with Rohloff/Son28 hubs on 26" rims. He said 4-cross would be far too flexible a wheel. I have had no problems in 5 years of regular use.

[MelodyWheels]

I've never built a wheel, I've always run a bit scared of spokes n stuff. I feel I should be more competent and maybe the best way to become more competent is to build up a wheel. Would there be any problems with doing an Alfine as a first wheel build?

No there'd be no problem building an Alfine on your first wheel and anyone can learn to build a wheel. As others have pointed out the issue with your wheel is most probably spoke quality. This isn't an exclusive Sapim problem, there have been bad batches of DT spokes as well. However most spokes break because of fatigue which is a very different issue. There are a lot of excellent resources online however with some things you have to take with with a grain of salt. Wheel builders tends to have passionate opinions about what is 'the right way'. I'd recommend reading The art of wheelbuilding by Gerd Schraner as a good starting point. I use it as a background reading/textbook for the my wheel building course that I teach in Perth.

[ianganderton]

Thank you muchly for all the feedback folks. Really is appreciated.

Ok going to consider doing it myself

Have I read somewhere that it's worth considering using a 2 cross pattern on an Alfine to help with the angle of some spokes at the nipple?

Part of me thinks it makes sense to just rebuild using the same pattern as original as obviously a big company like focus knows what it is doing

But

Their wheel keeps breaking [emoji19]

[koshari]

I use the 3 cross patern myself, 2 over , 1 under. Simply because thats what pretty much all mt 26 wheels are laced. It makes sense to copy the existing patern as the spoke lengths are then just coppied.

[ianganderton]

Another question on building a wheel myself:

How much of a well built wheel is about the "feel" of the builder? How much is art? Aren't my first few wheels going to be crap because I don't have the feel for it? Unless I keep my eye in and build wheels regularly won't this always be the case?

[bychosis]

I've built a couple of wheels, but the last set for my fixie I was having a bit of trouble getting it right towards the end. Out of time and patience, I ended up getting them tensioned and trued by a pro. Saved money on the build by lacing myself, got it trued and tensioned properly without any headaches.

[find_bruce]

Have I read somewhere that it's worth considering using a 2 cross pattern on an Alfine to help with the angle of some spokes at the nipple?

That's what I understand, but it depends on the combination of rim and nipple. My alfine is mated to a Mavic A 719 rim which has a double eyelet which makes the nipple sit at a particular angle. Using sapim polyax nipples mostly overcame the issue.

Personally I think that wheel building is a skill rather than an art. Like all skills, you can improve with practice. Building wheels for yourself you will never be as skilled as someone who builds wheels for a living. I expect that the full time wheel builders will build more wheels in a week than I would in a lifetime. Feel helps to be faster, but methodical will get you there in the end.

As a home builder you have but one advantage - you are not paying for your time. If you make a mistake in lacing the wheel, pull it apart & start again. If you are not happy with how the tension has come up, back it off & do it over. I like to think I build a decent wheel, but I am slow & hopefully methodical.

[softy]

Thank you muchly for all the feedback folks. Really is appreciated.

Ok going to consider doing it myself

Have I read somewhere that it's worth considering using a 2 cross pattern on an Alfine to help with the angle of some spokes at the nipple?

Part of me thinks it makes sense to just rebuild using the same pattern as original as obviously a big company like focus knows what it is doing

But

Their wheel keeps breaking [emoji19]

yep give it a go, it is not rocket science, i would say most lbs aren't doing a super top job anyway.

if you have a high hub flange arrangement going 2 cross might reduce the angle, if to sharp they break after about 500km. I experienced this with my hub motor build. I had two bike shops have a go and in the end i researched the internet and built it myself. I ended up with a better job and no breakages.

There is heaps of advice on this forum to help you. True for roundness first, then centring. I then went around and around making the pitch of the spokes very even, this took a while. Most lbs don't do this as, they just true.

i greased the nipples to minimise any twisting of the spoke.

good luck, i am sure you won't need it!

[ColinOldnCranky]

A few have mentioned a particular type of stainless steel spoke failing.

Again in my case, as well as changing the crossings, I used boring old cheap dull galvanised (or whatever) spokes. The advice to me was that the stainless steel ones fatigued at the bend near the hub. Which IS where the failed spokes all snapped.

It may not be the brand of stainless steel spoke that is at fault, but all stainless steel spokes.