Custom Wheel Builds
-
- Posts: 395
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:24 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
Custom Wheel Builds
Postby jackthelad » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:51 pm
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.
this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built
SantaCruz Blur XC Carbon
Kona Kula Supreme(Retired/Spare)
Surly Karate Monkey
Ribble Rd Bike
- queequeg
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby queequeg » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:29 am
a) Did you tell the wheel builder you were 100kg+?jackthelad wrote:So....
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.
this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built
b) Did you factor it carrying any gear as well?
c) 2 Cross is fine - the number of spokes is more important
d) No, you can't relace the wheels to 3 cross using the same spokes. The spokes will be too short.
Would I be annoyed? Well, if I asked for 3 cross and he built 2 cross...yes. If you didn't specifically ask for it, the builder made a choice.
With 32 spokes front and back, you should have a wheelset that will take at least a 115kg rider weight, and probably a fair bit more. I'm not sure about your rims though, and whether they are rated for certain load.
-
- Posts: 395
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:24 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby jackthelad » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:13 am
The shop knew i was over 100kgqueequeg wrote:a) Did you tell the wheel builder you were 100kg+?jackthelad wrote:So....
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.
this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built
b) Did you factor it carrying any gear as well?
c) 2 Cross is fine - the number of spokes is more important
d) No, you can't relace the wheels to 3 cross using the same spokes. The spokes will be too short.
Would I be annoyed? Well, if I asked for 3 cross and he built 2 cross...yes. If you didn't specifically ask for it, the builder made a choice.
With 32 spokes front and back, you should have a wheelset that will take at least a 115kg rider weight, and probably a fair bit more. I'm not sure about your rims though, and whether they are rated for certain load.
i am the kitchen sink, medical, spares person, around 110 to 120kg with gear
i wasnt asked what cross, i would like...
and custom bike.. emails sent back and forward etc..
Flows are good for up to 250lb's so within range
SantaCruz Blur XC Carbon
Kona Kula Supreme(Retired/Spare)
Surly Karate Monkey
Ribble Rd Bike
- queequeg
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby queequeg » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:27 am
I think you'll be fine. Main thing is you got lots of spokes on a solid rim. I have recently built two wheelsets. One was 32 with 2-cross, the other I did as 36H 3-cross (as it was new rims and spokes on existing hubs, so I matched my previous lacing). Both sets of wheels are incredibly strong.jackthelad wrote:The shop knew i was over 100kgqueequeg wrote:a) Did you tell the wheel builder you were 100kg+?jackthelad wrote:So....
i am over the 100kg mark, with gear on..
i had a Custom bike made up.
this included wheels,
32 hole hubs to 29er Flow rims
i believe they have only been made 2 cross
would you expect this or 3 cross, with a person of over 100kg?
Should i be annoyed? is it worth saying something to the shop or move on..
Can it be recrossed, using same spokes.
would you be annoyed? if you werent asked while being built
b) Did you factor it carrying any gear as well?
c) 2 Cross is fine - the number of spokes is more important
d) No, you can't relace the wheels to 3 cross using the same spokes. The spokes will be too short.
Would I be annoyed? Well, if I asked for 3 cross and he built 2 cross...yes. If you didn't specifically ask for it, the builder made a choice.
With 32 spokes front and back, you should have a wheelset that will take at least a 115kg rider weight, and probably a fair bit more. I'm not sure about your rims though, and whether they are rated for certain load.
i am the kitchen sink, medical, spares person, around 110 to 120kg with gear
i wasnt asked what cross, i would like...
and custom bike.. emails sent back and forward etc..
Flows are good for up to 250lb's so within range
- Duck!
- Expert
- Posts: 9857
- Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
- Location: On The Tools
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby Duck! » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:05 am
-
- Posts: 395
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:24 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby jackthelad » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:38 am
on Boost 148 rear /110 boost fork 15mm axle
SantaCruz Blur XC Carbon
Kona Kula Supreme(Retired/Spare)
Surly Karate Monkey
Ribble Rd Bike
- Duck!
- Expert
- Posts: 9857
- Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm
- Location: On The Tools
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby Duck! » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:41 am
- bychosis
- Posts: 7250
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm
- Location: Lake Macquarie
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby bychosis » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:03 am
- foo on patrol
- Posts: 9008
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:12 am
- Location: Sanstone Point QLD
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby foo on patrol » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:50 pm
Foo
Goal 6000km
-
- Posts: 395
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:24 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby jackthelad » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:22 am
Nt shop purchased from
SantaCruz Blur XC Carbon
Kona Kula Supreme(Retired/Spare)
Surly Karate Monkey
Ribble Rd Bike
- biker jk
- Posts: 7001
- Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
- Location: Sydney
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:31 am
Might be ok but not ideal. Three cross on a 32 spoke disc brake wheel is ideal. I guess "custom" build in this case means the builder's habit of using insufficient spoke crossings.jackthelad wrote:Dropped in on a local shop, on a ride . and he said 2 cross should be ok ...
Nt shop purchased from
- RonK
- Posts: 11508
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
- Location: If you need to know, ask me
- Contact:
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby RonK » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:58 am
It's not always easy to see all the crossings. One will be very close to the hub flange and is easily overlooked. Post a photo.
- queequeg
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:14 am
I guess it depends. Here's an extract from the Roger Musson Wheelbuilding BookRonK wrote:It's hard to believe any competent wheel builder would have built your wheels two-cross.
It's not always easy to see all the crossings. One will be very close to the hub flange and is easily overlooked. Post a photo.
According to Roger, there is no difference in performance or strength for one cross pattern over another. In many cases it comes down to the hub and the spoke entry angle at the rim. Plus, for weight weenies, more crosses means longer spokes, which means a heavier wheel
The Spoke Calculator (https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/) will warn you if the selected cross pattern for your hub will result in overlapping spoke heads, plus it will also give you the entry angle of the spokes to the rims.
I have just done two wheelbuilds recently. One was a 24F/32R 2-Cross Wheelset, the other was 36F/36R 3-Cross.
Of course, Roger is only one guy, and I have not seen the actual data on 2 Cross vs 3-Cross, but given that both a 2 Cross and a 3 Cross wheel have only one spoke touching against another in each cross, I fail to see how one would be stronger than another. The only difference is the angle that the spokes cross at (with the exception being a 0 Cross/Radial Lacing)
- P!N20
- Posts: 4032
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:50 pm
- Location: Wurundjeri Country
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby P!N20 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:53 am
http://docplayer.net/32700824-Bicycle-w ... acing.htmlqueequeg wrote:I have not seen the actual data on 2 Cross vs 3-Cross, but given that both a 2 Cross and a 3 Cross wheel have only one spoke touching against another in each cross, I fail to see how one would be stronger than another.
Let's jump to the conclusion:
In this analysis the 3x/3x wheel provided the best combination of strength, stiffness, power transfer and reliability. The 3x/3x wheel outperformed the two half radial wheels because allof the spokes share the power. In the half radial wheels, only the crossed spokes transfer power – the radial spokes only support rider weight. The 2x/2x wheel matched the 3x/3x wheel in stiffness and power transfer, but the 3x/3x wheel won on fatigue strength. This is because the spokes emerge from the hub at an angle nearly tangent to the hub flange. This is true with a 28 spoke wheel; however, as the number of spokes in the wheel increases or decreases, the number of spoke crossings would need to be adjusted to maintain the tangent condition. Accordingly, 2x lacing should be used with 20 spokes or less, 3x lacing should be used with 24 or 28 spokes, and 4x lacing should be used with 32 spokes or greater. So it is concluded that the best rear wheel is cross laced on both sides with number of crossing chosen to make the spokes as close to tangent to the hub flange as possible.
- biker jk
- Posts: 7001
- Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:18 pm
- Location: Sydney
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 am
A high cross number helps, so the spokes leave the hub at a larger effective radius.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/torque-spoking.html
- queequeg
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:12 pm
So, if I read that correctly, the correct number of crosses for any given wheel has nothing to do with strength, but is a factor of the hub flange only. Based on this, my 3x wheel should actually be a 4x wheel (although the spoke heads would overlap), and my 2x wheel should be a 3x wheel, and my factory wheels were built sub-optimallyP!N20 wrote:http://docplayer.net/32700824-Bicycle-w ... acing.htmlqueequeg wrote:I have not seen the actual data on 2 Cross vs 3-Cross, but given that both a 2 Cross and a 3 Cross wheel have only one spoke touching against another in each cross, I fail to see how one would be stronger than another.
Let's jump to the conclusion:
In this analysis the 3x/3x wheel provided the best combination of strength, stiffness, power transfer and reliability. The 3x/3x wheel outperformed the two half radial wheels because allof the spokes share the power. In the half radial wheels, only the crossed spokes transfer power – the radial spokes only support rider weight. The 2x/2x wheel matched the 3x/3x wheel in stiffness and power transfer, but the 3x/3x wheel won on fatigue strength. This is because the spokes emerge from the hub at an angle nearly tangent to the hub flange. This is true with a 28 spoke wheel; however, as the number of spokes in the wheel increases or decreases, the number of spoke crossings would need to be adjusted to maintain the tangent condition. Accordingly, 2x lacing should be used with 20 spokes or less, 3x lacing should be used with 24 or 28 spokes, and 4x lacing should be used with 32 spokes or greater. So it is concluded that the best rear wheel is cross laced on both sides with number of crossing chosen to make the spokes as close to tangent to the hub flange as possible.
Update: I read the linked article. So, the fatigue strength was taken to be the wheel with the lowest tension range. I'm not really sure what to make of that, given that the spokes they used were nowhere near the limits of their max tension. Would be interesting to see how that translates into a real world scenario. For example, a 3x laced wheel would expect X spoke failures over Y years, whereas the 2x lacing would result in X * some number over Y years.
What I did find interesting was that the 2x and 3x wheels had identical power transfer and strength.
- P!N20
- Posts: 4032
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:50 pm
- Location: Wurundjeri Country
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby P!N20 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:30 pm
- find_bruce
- Moderator
- Posts: 10579
- Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
- Location: Sydney
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby find_bruce » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:41 pm
He then has a table that lists spoke numbers & preferred & optional crosses as followsRoger Musson wrote:The number of crosses to use is based solely on the number of spokes in the wheel. When it comes to the number of crosses there is a recommended number for each spoke count which ensures the spokes do not overlap on the hub flange putting an unnecessary bend in the spoke close to the elbow, the overlap also makes replacing a broken spoke more difficult. For example, a 32 spoke wheel can have a maximum of 3 crosses; once you go to 4 cross the spoke wraps over the head of the inside spoke.
36 3 4
32 3 2
28 3 2
24 2 -
- queequeg
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:09 am
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:58 pm
The table is included in my post abovefind_bruce wrote:As always I rely on Roger MussonHe then has a table that lists spoke numbers & preferred & optional crosses as followsRoger Musson wrote:The number of crosses to use is based solely on the number of spokes in the wheel. When it comes to the number of crosses there is a recommended number for each spoke count which ensures the spokes do not overlap on the hub flange putting an unnecessary bend in the spoke close to the elbow, the overlap also makes replacing a broken spoke more difficult. For example, a 32 spoke wheel can have a maximum of 3 crosses; once you go to 4 cross the spoke wraps over the head of the inside spoke.
36 3 4
32 3 2
28 3 2
24 2 -
- baabaa
- Posts: 1574
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:47 am
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby baabaa » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:21 pm
- MelodyWheels
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:30 pm
- Location: Fremantle, Western Australia
- Contact:
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby MelodyWheels » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:33 am
3-cross is better IMHO on a 32h hub for managing torsional breaking loads and having less stress on the hub flanges. Some wheel builders go 2-cross for wider bracing angles. Its not a deal breaker.
I wouldn't recommend re-lacing with a new lacing pattern. This will just ovalise the spoke holes, that will create more play at the spoke head and stress on the flanges.
-
- Posts: 395
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:24 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
Re: Custom Wheel Builds
Postby jackthelad » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:26 pm
Thank you, Just never had 2 cross, since i've had wheels made for 20 years .. was just odd noticing itMelodyWheels wrote:I woudn't be too concerned.
3-cross is better IMHO on a 32h hub for managing torsional breaking loads and having less stress on the hub flanges. Some wheel builders go 2-cross for wider bracing angles. Its not a deal breaker.
I wouldn't recommend re-lacing with a new lacing pattern. This will just ovalise the spoke holes, that will create more play at the spoke head and stress on the flanges.
SantaCruz Blur XC Carbon
Kona Kula Supreme(Retired/Spare)
Surly Karate Monkey
Ribble Rd Bike
- General Australian Cycling Topics
- Info / announcements
- Buying a bike / parts
- General Cycling Discussion
- The Bike Shed
- Cycling Health
- Cycling Safety and Advocacy
- Women's Cycling
- Bike & Gear Reviews
- Cycling Trade
- Stolen Bikes
- Bicycle FAQs
- Serious Biking
- Audax / Randonneuring
- Retro biking
- Commuting
- MTB
- Recumbents
- Fixed Gear/ Single Speed
- Track
- Electric Bicycles
- Cyclocross and Gravel Grinding
- Dragsters / Lowriders / Cruisers
- Children's Bikes
- Cargo Bikes and Utility Cycling
- Road Racing
- Road Biking
- Training
- Time Trial
- Triathlon
- International and National Tours and Events
- Cycle Touring
- Touring Australia
- Touring Overseas
- Touring Bikes and Equipment
- Australia
- Western Australia
- New South Wales
- Queensland
- South Australia
- Victoria
- ACT
- Tasmania
- Northern Territory
- Country & Regional
- The Market Place
- Member to Member Bike and Gear Sales
- Want to Buy, Group Buy, Swap
- My Bikes or Gear Elsewhere
- Cycling Brands
- Cannondale
- Garmin
- Giant
- Shimano
- Trek
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
- All times are UTC+11:00
- Top
- Delete cookies
About the Australian Cycling Forums
The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.
Bicycles Network Australia
Forum Information
Connect with BNA
This website uses affiliate links to retail platforms including ebay, amazon, proviz and ribble.