Chosing the right saddle

Mersch
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Chosing the right saddle

Postby Mersch » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:33 pm

Hi all,

So I have recently installed some mini clip-on tt bars on my road bike to be used for sprint & olympic distance triathlons, however when I am in the aero position my current stock saddle gets too uncomfortable. Just wondering which saddle you would reccomend for a road bike for shorter distance triathlons? Appreciate your help.

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:18 pm

Unfortunately this is very much person-specific. I have a Selle Italia X1 which follows me from bike to bike, but what works for my undercarriage may not work for yours...
Campagnolo for show, SunTour for go

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Thoglette
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:19 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:Unfortunately this is very much person-specific.
Yup. And the comfortable set up for the tribar position probably won't be as comfortable in the drops nor when sitting upright. Sorry.
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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:43 am

Noseless. You need to be able to rotate your pelvis forwards without crushing your junk.

ISM, Cobb, dash, Fizik Mistica, SMP T series...

Also flip your seatpost to offset forwards, or find one that can if yours can't. This will open up your hip angle and be much more comfortable.

FWIW I have an ISM Attack, though mainly because it was really cheap on ebay.
<edit: from this guy> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ISM-Adamo-A ... 2758466206

https://www.slowtwitch.com/bike/Product ... j6333.html

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g-boaf
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby g-boaf » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:24 am

Another option is Specialized Sitero:

https://www.specialized.com/jp/en/sitero-pro/p/133006

I'm using this on my TT bike at the moment, but it's up to you to try them all and find which one works and which one doesn't. I'm using the TT bike a lot at the moment for intervals. I'm just wearing normal cycling kit though, not the stuff aimed at triathlon with less padding.

Mersch
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Mersch » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:57 pm

I was hoping for a more "road shaped specific saddle" as it is on a road bike and would only be used for shorter races. Has anyone tried the Fizik Arione?

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:21 am

There are some old style soft nose skinny tri saddles around, but they have largely fallen out of favour these days, because they still put pressure on your soft tissue.

I think you have two (good) options:

a) change your perception of what a "road shaped specific saddle" is. You *can* use a noseless saddle on a road bike perfectly well, you just need to slam it back a long way and get over the stigma you feel. (Have a look at any number of women's race bikes, ISMs get plenty of use.)

or

b) buy a new seatpost as well as a noseless saddle, then you can swap it in about 30 seconds on race days. As I said above, you probably want the saddle in a different position for aero bar use anyway, so this makes the most sense to me (see my thread just below this one).

Anything else (ie road style saddle) is still going to be shoving a long skinny bar into your perineum.

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Derny Driver
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:23 pm

MattyK wrote:
I think you have two (good) options:

a) change your perception of what a "road shaped specific saddle" is. You *can* use a noseless saddle on a road bike perfectly well, you just need to slam it back a long way and get over the stigma you feel. (Have a look at any number of women's race bikes, ISMs get plenty of use.)

or

b) buy a new seatpost as well as a noseless saddle, then you can swap it in about 30 seconds on race days. As I said above, you probably want the saddle in a different position for aero bar use anyway, so this makes the most sense to me (see my thread just below this one).

Anything else (ie road style saddle) is still going to be shoving a long skinny bar into your perineum.
Matty is 100% correct.
I hang around my local bike shop, my local racing club, all my mates ride ...I see hundreds of bikes weekly and every saddle is different. No-one gives a rats what sort it is or what it looks like. Every bum is different and whatever is comfortable is the right one. If you are 18 years old with a skinny arse then maybe you can ride a Fizic Arione. A noseless saddle is the way forward. Many people are using them on their track bikes and time trial bikes now because of the UCI measurement from the tip of the saddle to the bars. If you want to have your seat forward - which you should if you are using clip on bars - then a normal saddle will be illegal. I know triathlons don't have the UCI rule but my point is that noseless saddles are quite common for a lot of reasons. You should try one.

If you end up using a normal road saddle, then make sure you slide the thing forward if you are using the clip ons, and back if you are using the road handlebars. That will alleviate some of your issues. Or use mattys idea of having a road saddle and post, and swapping it out for a different saddle and post which is set about 5cm forward of the road position. The forward position also requires you to have the seat about 1cm higher than your normal road riding position as well.

Mersch
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Mersch » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:14 pm

Great thanks alot for everyones feedback! I will definately buy a separate saddle and post for races/ being in the aero position and leave my current saddle and post for just normal training rides. What should I look for in a seat post? For example should I go with an Inline or Layback post? and what are the differences between the two?

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:16 pm

You’re welcome. Seatposts are offset or straight just to help put the saddle in a certain position for comfort, fit, etc. usually offset rearwards on a road bike but more forwards in TT/tri position.

get either a straight one, or one with an offset that you can mount reversed so it’s offset forwards. Not all posts can do this due to limitations of the clamp angle. Mine came from China via eBay. A 3T Ionic post would work well

In a nutshell, your tri position should be very similar to your road position in terms of body angles, but with everything rotated forwards, pivoting around the bottom bracket. Hence, saddle forwards and a little up, and bars forwards and down.

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Derny Driver
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:03 pm

MattyK wrote:You’re welcome. Seatposts are offset or straight just to help put the saddle in a certain position for comfort, fit, etc. usually offset rearwards on a road bike but more forwards in TT/tri position.

get either a straight one, or one with an offset that you can mount reversed so it’s offset forwards.
Not sure you'd need to mount the post backwards. A straight post with the seat slid forward on the rails should be plenty.

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:27 am

Depends on the saddle's rails and the bar position. See my Ugly bike thread, I'm using a 25mm offset post, saddle nose is still about 5cm behind the BB and my body position is pretty good. That's with an ISM that has very long rails and no nose, which would effectively be even more forwards. I wouldn't want it further back.

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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Deus_Ex_Machina » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:51 pm

Depends how hard core you are I suppose. I have done both Sprint and Olympic and had a lot of trouble getting comfortable. After much research my conclusion is comfort trumps everything else. If you are in pain it doesn't matter how aero you are you wont put the power down. For what it's worth I now have a Fizik Aliante and Profile Design T2+ bars. The Aliante is meant to be for inflexible "bulls" but I can put my hands flat on the ground with straight legs but it's comfy. My flat stock seat killed me. I don't mess with the seat post or fore aft much as the bars are extremely adjustable fore/aft. With weight on the bars and power on the pedals I don't find junk squashing too much hassle as there isn't a tonne of weight transmitted there anymore anyway. Maybe I have small junk.

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:41 am

Deus_Ex_Machina wrote:Depends how hard core you are I suppose. I have done both Sprint and Olympic and had a lot of trouble getting comfortable. After much research my conclusion is comfort trumps everything else. If you are in pain it doesn't matter how aero you are you wont put the power down. For what it's worth I now have a Fizik Aliante and Profile Design T2+ bars. The Aliante is meant to be for inflexible "bulls" but I can put my hands flat on the ground with straight legs but it's comfy. My flat stock seat killed me. I don't mess with the seat post or fore aft much as the bars are extremely adjustable fore/aft. With weight on the bars and power on the pedals I don't find junk squashing too much hassle as there isn't a tonne of weight transmitted there anymore anyway. Maybe I have small junk.
Curious to see your posture on the bike, do you have a profile photo?
By the sound of it, if you have good back flexibility, a curved saddle, and move your aero bars back to compensate for a rearward saddle position, then you're probably in a pretty bunched up position with your pelvis quite upright. Might be comfortable on the undercarriage, but could be flatter/more aero and more comfortable on a different saddle?

You are 100% right about comfort though.

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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Deus_Ex_Machina » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:01 am

I can get way more "aero" and actually love the feel of being flatter and lower but have had a lot of upper glute/lower sides of the back (crest of pelvis) pain beyond 15klms or so especially when putting the power down, to the point where I have to slow down as it hurts.

I have pulled the tri bars back, flipped the stem back up but the saddle made the biggest difference. I'm more upright but am still on the tapered pubic ramus not the "sit bones" or ischial tuberosity as that's where I feel it the next day. I'm not much of a rider so may just take adaptation and time for me to be able to stretch out more.

I could shift the seat and bars forward to achieve a similar result with less twitchy steering but figure then I'm messing with my knee, quad, glute loading and fundamental pedal stroke.

Fit's didn't seem to help so I'm just trial and error now. Also excuse the suit :lol:

Image

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:23 pm

Not surprised you're comfy on that saddle, you're basically in a road bike position.

I'm not a bike fitter but if I was, I'd rotate you forward. A Lot. It wouldn't change any of your body angles, so you shouldn't have any pain issues.
As an example, though you could probably go even more aggressive than this:
Image
The only exception to comfort being how you sit on your saddle, which would require a suitable saddle.

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Derny Driver
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:55 pm

Spot on MattyK

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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Deus_Ex_Machina » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:37 am

So sorry to hijack your thread but how would you facilitate that on my current bike? Would I need a different seat post like the PD fast forward and go from there moving tri bars forward and dropping the stem down? Clearly I have had bike fit in the wrong places as have been underwhelmed.

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:21 pm

Don't sweat the hijack, I don't think OP has come back for a while.

Again, see what I did on my ugly bike in the other thread, but my shopping list would probably be:

a) reversible offset seatpost. Probably don't need the PD, a 25mm offset post will be OK with an ISM saddle, which you can sit closer to the nose of. Something like a 3T Ionic.
or https://www.cyclingdeal.com.au/buy/uno- ... PC612N-272
b) ISM PN3.0 (or PN 3.1) saddle. Without knowing your individual preferences, this is apparently THE model most likely to work for most people. Push it as far forward on the rails as you can (ISMs have long rails).
c) slam your stem as low as possible. Possibly a different (shorter) headset cover cone, or a more aggressively angled (25-30°) and fairly long (120-130) stem. Cinelli Pista, BBB BHS-25, etc
d) Elbow pads roughly directly over your handlebar. Elbows positioned in the cups. Extensions angled slightly up from horizontal. Adjust grip reach for roughly 90-100° elbow angle
e) take a profile angle video of yourself on a bike trainer. (camera perpendicular to bottom bracket and at hip level)
f) submit video to slowtwitch forum for peer/professional review. (default reply: your saddle's too high. But seriously there are some very competent fitters who will tell you if it's wrong)

FYI here was my self-fit with a similar getup:
https://youtu.be/q6N2m4eirnA

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:01 pm

Update on the advice above.
I was at Cycling Deal yesterday and looked at the seat post I linked to above. It's got a tab on the clamp mechanism that engages in a recess in the bore through the head of the post that effectively prevents the head from being fully rotatable (such that it could be used as a forwards offset post). This would probably prevent it from being clamped up on the rails properly in that orientation.

It might be possible to grind down this tab, but unless you're willing to do even more hacking, I can't recommend that particular post.

Deus_Ex_Machina
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Deus_Ex_Machina » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:07 am

Thanks for the assistance. So the Thomson elite layback seems to be a popular one to reverse. Which I think is 16mm offset. The PD fast forward is 38mm. Price diff is not much, its more a it what will get me in a better place. Worried PD might be too much but it is kinda what its made for. Converting 73 to 78 degree geometry

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:21 pm

Quick maths says my 20mm offset post effectively changes the post angle by about 3 degrees (compared to 20mm rear offset). So effectively about a 76 degree post. In combination with a saddle with long rails that can be pushed forwards a lot, and that you can sit on the nose of, you can then simulate a steeper angle. That was enough for me within budget constraints.

Again, assuming a budget, the other saddle to consider is the ISM PR2.0 which is a little cheaper and you might have a better chance of finding second hand than the PN3.0 or PN3.1 which is pretty new. And the ISM Century was the name of the PR2.0 before they renamed everything a few years ago, if you want to hunt for even older ones.

Good luck!
PS if you're in Melbourne which it looks like you are, I can let you trial my ISM Attack (aka PN1.0) if you want. PM me.

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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Deus_Ex_Machina » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:25 pm

Hmmm so it's gonna be some time before I change bikes and if/when I do I'll likely keep my CAAD8 as a trainer and pick up a second hand dedicated "Tri Bike". So what I'm thinking is maybe get the Profile Fast Forward (about $120AUD) and I might need that real kick in distance/angle, hunt around for a cheapy second hand triathlon style saddle. I'm thinking that way I can pop the Tri post and saddle on and ride the aeros (moved forward) then if I want to relax a bit I can put the original post and Aliante saddle on and cruise the hoods. I won't dick with stems until I have played with other stuff first but I have a tonne of drop in the bars if I want. The 6 deg stem can flip to a decline and I have 4-5? spacers underneath still I think. I had it lower and tri bars forward but because I was effectively in a more flexed rainbow shape I felt that may have contributed to my lower back/upper glute pain (even though I have no trouble getting into that position as I'm quite flexible). Even your crude photoshop image gives me a good impression of what I'm trying to achieve though. Everything I read is about "moving forward" but it's more about rotating my position. I'm down in Gtown unfortunately MattyK

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MattyK
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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby MattyK » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:30 am

Deus_Ex_Machina wrote:Everything I read is about "moving forward" but it's more about rotating my position.
Exactly this. Per my photo hack, once you do that your position actually looks pretty good. your body angles all seem pretty sound.

I too would suspect that your previous glute issues were related to a tighter hip angle (ie shoulder to hip to kee), but of course that's the opinion of some random guy on the internet who is not a physio, biomechanic, bike fitter, etc. I just read too much slowtwitch...
(Side note, the other way to help get lower without tightening up the hip angle is with shorter cranks)

You look like a very similar size to me, on a similar size bike (for ref: 185cm, 57cm frame), and on my bike I run about 14cm drop from saddle to bars on my tri setup. I definitely needed the stem to get to my position, and my clip ons are very low stack height above the bar. which is playing in my favour too; less so with the PD T2+. So I suspect you'll want the stem, though a shorter headset cone would get you a fair way there. I found mine for $20 on gumtree, hence the mismatched colour...

A bit more powerpoint hack and this is what it might look like with the handlebars repositoned. Stem added in red for reference to show you what you'd need to move the bars there.
Image

Next stage I will talk you in to adding a base bar, new brake levers and bar end shifters. :wink: (Hint, it's much easier to swap the whole cockpit assembly and re-do the cables than it is to swap the stem and clip on the aero bars and realign everything)

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Re: Chosing the right saddle

Postby Deus_Ex_Machina » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:04 pm

Thanks for all the help MattyK, currently hunting seatposts.

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