FTP vs LTHR

[Jumma]

OK, last night the weather was mild and I was hanging to get out on the road so I threw on my new niterider 700 lumen light got all fluro and was off around 6pm. Ride profile - I did 64 km over 2HR:20 with 1044 vertical climbing all up. MHR reached 172 on one climb and hit high 150's to 160's on a few others. Burned 1800 calories.

The plan was to do an endurance ride, for me this is keeping my MHR mostly in the 130's and my power below 180w. Problem is once I got started I found it very difficult to ride any slower. On the flats it was fine but as soon as a hill came up with my std + 11-25 setup I had to put some decent force through to save myself from grinding and keeping the cadence up. A couple of hills I admit I did attack a bit, so I expected high values from them.

The Strava output has me at based on MHR (37%endurance, 54%moderate,8% threshold and 1%anaerobic.

It also has Power at (based on FTP 240w) (27%Aactive rec, 25% endurance, 17% tempo, 11% threshold and so on up for the remainder).

My thinking is that this is NOT ok for an endurance ride!?? Am I worrying too much about the spread of figures? or is this right? I tried to hold power at or under 180w (my endurance Z2) but to get up even small hills it would raise to over 200w and even on the flats unless I really concentrated it would be up to 190 and over easily. I run an average 100 rpm cadence and often sit on around 105 or so on the flats, just where I feel comfortable.

Do I need to get an 11 or 12-28 cassette on the back to try and keep the hill climb cadence up and torque/leg force down??

What percentage of the ride must be in zone 2 for it to be considered an effective endurance aerobic ride. I know my legs are feeling it today, so they did do some work!!!! According to my power I did about 70% up to and below threshold (max in tempo range) and did the remainder 30% at threshold, V02max and anaerobic zones)....

Or do I just need to stay away from hilly areas during endurance base type rides. My plan was to ride endurance and then do my intervals 3x8/3 this afternoon on the trainer but now I feel I have gone too hard last night and should have a good days rest in between...

I'd post up screen shots of the data but haven't worked out how to post pics here yet.

Feed back appreciated

Thanks

James

[Xplora]

Is this "not OK"? You are correct. This is NOT OK. WAY too much tempo and threshold. The small hills should have you seated in the small ring, the big hills right at the back of the gears. I like Friel's protocol for endurance rides - keep the heartrate at endurance pace, ignore the power. This will naturally suppress your aspirations of quick riding because it's hard to go fast when you are refusing to lift the HR.

Of course you'll go up a couple pinches fast because this is a bike ride, it's not a job. But endurance rides must be slow.

For the record, I have probably only done one dedicated endurance ride in 3 years of riding. The rest I just attacked and ran myself into the ground. Endurance rides require discipline, lots of it, because they are not the cycling culture.

One great way to do endurance rides is 150+kms. You physically can't hold high tempo/threshold that long. You'll be out for 5 hours. Everyone wins.

[Jumma]

Yeah, I thought so

It IS hard to go slow and TEMPO is such an easy zone to fall into .... Damn tempo!

I did climb most of the hills in 39/25 but in order to not grind at all I needed to keep the cadence up, which in return meant higher HR and power. I am guilty of pushing harder than I should have on the flats though.

I see what you mean by using HR to monitor endurance rides and I just knew that I should have been holding my HR around mid 130's to be in the correct zone. I should actually say to myself "stay below 140, stay below 140, stay below...." maybe that will help

What I should do is get out the flat bar bike, heavy alloy, with a triple x 10 on it and ride in the 34 up front on hills, stick to bike tracks as I have 38 tyres on it, use only HR to measure and just cruise next time I do one of these night time rides, probably safer too, anyhow!!!

I'd like to get some 4-5+ hour rides in on Sundays, but I struggle to find anyone that wants to join me.

The other thing is, when you ride on the road, with traffic involved, you tend to ride harder, to keep your speed up also, as it feels a bit safer and more flowing if you maintain a higher speed.

Cheers

James

[trailgumby]

I find that is a major challenge riding home from work. It takes real discipline to focus on keeping my HR down around 130-140 for the duration whilst riding in traffic.

Originally I had 53/39 and 12-25 which was great for training in the morning but found that I had to dig too deep to get up the climbs on the return journey home, and the HR was easily up around 160-170. Didn't sleep a wink. Metabolism was wound right up the whole night.

Ended up switching to 11-28 and 34/50 just so I had the ability to soft pedal and keep the HR down for the ride home.

[Jumma]

Having set my FTP now after one test a month or so ago on the trainer based on the 20 min protocol I have landed at 240W. Based on 95% of average 20 min. The thing is. I held an average HR of about161 BPM for the test and this is around 90% of my MHR. Yesterday I did a session on the trainer at 105% of FTP. This was a 3x8+5 session and I held my power at 140-152w for each 8 min effort. My HR however only averaged 145-150 BPM!? Now this is supposed to be above my FTP and as I understand it 5% above my LTHR or lactic threshold. My LTHR from experience and feeling should be around 152-155 BPM based on MHR 175 BPM. So I feel my LTHR is around 84% of MHR. But in these efforts I am only averaging 75% of my MHR while doing a 5% above my set FTP effort or above LTHR??

Does anyone else experience this? Does this mean my FTP is set too low.

I must admit that even though the 3rd 8 minute effort was harder and my hr averaged closer to the 150 in it, due to some fatigue, cardiac drift I assume, the other two efforts were not really that hard to complete. I thought they would be harder at 105% of my FTP?!?

I also did a hill climb the other day which was a 18 minute hard effort averaging 156 BPM and 285 watts. I could have gone much longer at that climbing pace and effort. So I am guessing this would give me an FTP of just under 260 watts. But yes I understand this is a hill climb and different to an FTP test on a trainer

Anyhow. Any info would be great. Training is going well. Have been managing effort vs time and recovery much better. Keeping a diary and Rest HR is staying low below 50 BPM averaging 45 to 48 most mornings.

Have been getting in 200 km per week typically and making sure the efforts count and not wasting much time at tempo. Ie easy in between and really hard during efforts.

Thanks

James

[Strawburger]

This is the exact reason why you throw away any correlations to heart rate data when you use power meter data!

Also, if you are doing vo2max intervals (5x5 or 3x8min which you are doing), you should be aiming for 265w + if your FTP is 240.

[Jumma]

Ok. I just thought there would be some kind of correlation in general with a variance in HR due to fatigue, stress, sickness etc.

These are not VO2max intervals as I understand it. They are sub-threshold, threshold and above threshold intervals i.e 95%, 100% and 105% of FTP. I have been doing three main sessions mixed up at the moment. They are 2x15 at 90-95% FTP, 3x10 at 95-100% FTP and 3x18 at 100-105% FTP.

Yes. I am venturing into VO2 max with the 105% as it is difficult to stay exactly within the boundaries and my threshold zone currently ranges 217-252 watts based on an FRP of 240 watts. BTW according to my data my VO2 max zone starts at 253 watts. 265+ is in the middle of my VO2 max zone!!

I do also fit in at least a few VO2 max efforts in some of my other days. Especially on my road rides where as I mentioned before I ride most of my time at L2, avoiding L3 or tempo and then do efforts in between, either short hill attacks, segment sprints and the like in between. Every hill is an effort!!! I get plenty of time above FTP and in VO2 max and neuromuscular zones this way and no time in the mid to upper tempo. I do get some lower tempo time but that is pretty difficult not to do.

This way I find my rides are fun and much more focused. It is difficult to discipline on between though. Riding L2 max on these rides is slow. But I just let loose on the hills. Oh ! These include some low cadence big gear stuff also for strength.

I have also started doing squats and calf raises with weights to try and increase my strength and muscular endurance. I do some core work with this too.

Well that's all my time taken up

I think I am doing things right!? I guess the next FTP test will give me an indication.

Though I have noticed that I am starting to beat my previous goals I have set for segments on strava

Maybe I should leave the HR for endurance work only.

Thanks

James

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Base your interval work on what you can and have done rather than rely on a % of FTP (which might be wrongly estimated anyway).

% of FTP is fine for starting somewhere, but adjust from there. Your outdoor power suggests FTP is underestimated, and quite probably you're unable to fully express it on your trainer set up, or fitness has improved somewhat since testing. Assumes accurate power data of course (I haven't gone back to view prior comments to check on how power is being measured).

HR lag and cardiac drift will vary depending on day to day variances, as well as interval type, structure and duration. HR isn't particularly helpful as intensity rises and duration shortens, or when effort become more variable. Indeed for shorter harder efforts (done properly), you might find HR barely spends any time at the "expected" level.

This old chart of mine shows examples of HR response during longer efforts at FTP and at more VO2max level.

[Jumma]

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I definitely don't use HR as an indicator during short efforts, especially all out efforts such as sprints etc.

I just looked back through some data of a ride I did back at the end of July. There is a segment I do as my own personal TT. I did my best time for it that ride, my most recent real effort at it, trying to beat my last time. The segment is mostly flat, has a few short 3-5% climbs of around a few hundred metres each, so some undulation, the total length is a bit under 10km. My best time is now 15:15, my previous was 15:40, so happy with that. There are some traffic lights which I have to slow for a little bit, but the majority of the ride is mostly all out and my average HR for the effort was 160 BPM (my tried and tested max is 175). My average power was 278W. BTW, I had ridden for about an hour before this doing a lot of tempo riding, with a lot of hills, so I was well and truly warmed up and fatigued quite a bit.... I know could have held this effort for much longer if I needed to with no problems (I just stopped at that point as I had reached the segment end). Continuing would be hard going but I know I could do it. So I was thinking that perhaps this (278x0.95=264 Watts is my real FTP). So maybe an FTP of 260-265!?? Only thing is that I know this is cheating as it is only 15 minute effort, however, no point cheating myself, and I do know I can keep going for a quite a bit longer at that average intensity. So I feel confident that the figures are close to where it should be.

I think getting your best on a trainer is HARD work, as has been stated by many before. The motivations are just not there and focus can be difficult, though I quite like training on the trainer as it is consistent and very effective in any weather. I don't mind punishing myself. I just struggle doing more than 1.5 hours in one session on it as the back end starts to go numb riding in such a static position.

As you asked, my previous FTP was done based on Coggans test, do good warm up, a couple of efforts, a 5 min all out effort, then a recovery 10 mins or so, then go as hard as you can for 20 minutes, trying to stay steady, which I did, and I actually used my HR as a bit of an initial guide as I had nothing else to start with as it was my first attempt and I do have a lot of previous HR data from MTB races and lots of rides as I am a data junkie

I use vector pedals and they have been calibrated according to Garmin. They have been pretty consistent so far and seem to work well. I am not overly concerned about them reading higher or lower than other meters etc. as long as they are consistent for me. I calibrate them before every ride or session on the trainer. I have not changed anything on them, not moved to another bike etc, since I did this ride above and my actual trainer FTP test.

Like I said in a previous post, I also did an 18 minute max sustainable effort up my local hill a week or so ago and my average data for it was over 18 minutes, non-atop, fairly consistent climb effort, average HR 156 and power average 284W. This would be about 284x0.95=270W, so an FTP of 270W.

So, now between these two efforts it seems to me that (even though they are both slightly shy of 20 minutes and I know I can do much more at these efforts) my FTP may actually be around the 265-270W range.

I am thinking that (270-240W) 30 watts higher FTP is a considerable difference?? I will do another run and try 20 minutes soon to see if I can verify or even improve on this figure.

I feel happier with 270 Watts, as this puts me closer to 3.4W/kg (I am 80 kg). I was hoping to get to 3.5 as apparently this is a good (general) starting point for our local C grade races.

I am interested to hear any feed back on this, as I am new to power training and still trying to get a better feel for using the power meter, zones and FTP. I feel that I am doing this right, and my estimates and assumptions are around the right area.

Now, one other thing!

If you test FTP on a hill, is that a different FTP to a flat TT test for FTP??? Surely the body needs to work just as hard and is relative to HR?? in other words, I guess you go slower up a hill X watts, but much faster on a flat with same X watts.

One thing I think I have also realised in all these efforts, is that my VO2 max could do with some work. I tend to have plenty left in the tank but normally just cant get enough air on those big climbs and efforts, that seems to be a limiting factor.

Thanks to all for their input and guidance. It is appreciated.

James

[Alex Simmons/RST]

FYI, the blowout + 20-min test then take 95% of that = FTP is not Coggan's test. He's never recommended it.

That test protocol is one suggested by Hunter Allen and the idea is the blowout is supposed to knock off a bit of anaerobic capacity before the TT effort. Else in general I find 95% of 20-min max power over estimates FTP somewhat, which is typically in the 89-96% of 20-min mean max power range, with 92-93% being a closer starting point when unsure.

I'm guessing you're in the 260-270W range.

Average power on variable terrain rides can hide a bit of capability.

30W is a big big difference. >10%
It's way more than the difference between an interval being do-able and completely cracking before you get halfway, let alone repeats.

As for the trainer and issues with power, see my old and popular blog post about that:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/01/ ... ining.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for testing FTP, see these two items as well:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/ ... -sins.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... ftp-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

enjoy!

[Jumma]

Alex, you are right. It is Allens' protocol.

I recall that I definitely made sure I was well fatigued before I did the FTP tests.

I think you are right with the FTP, as what I am doing now feels easier than it should, especially when I compare it to previous training where I was basing on MHR, where the HR levels I was using were higher for the same type of efforts.

I have set my FTP to 260 and recalculated all my zones and end up with:

1 .. Active Recovery < 143
2 .. Endurance 143 to 197
3 .. Tempo 197 to 234
Sweet Spot 228 to 241
4 .. Threshold 234 to 273
5 .. VO2 max 273 to 312
6 .. Anaerobic capacity 312 to 390
FTP (Watts) 260
Power to Weight
(Watts per Kg) 3.25

Zone 7 or neuromuscular is 390+

I will see how I go with this, at least I will be pushing harder and gain some more. I will be happy if I can get my FTP to around 300 by the end of the year .... well! At least it's a goal!!!

Thanks

James

[Xplora]

You will need to be very diligent in your training and your recovery protocols if you are going to get from 260w to 300w in 4 months. You'll probably need to be a bit more focused in your testing as well. I've "done" what you are doing, and it's extremely heavy going. I was racing 2 times a week for an hour (effectively a 60 minute test each time) during that period.

Not saying you won't do it, but that's a BIG bite of the cheese.

[toolonglegs]

260w to 300w FTP is possible... It's a bit over 10% improvement. But a lot of the actual improvement may be down to underestimated original FTP, getting better at pacing the test itself etc as much as performance improvements themselves.
Or when you get older just trying to hold or even get close to your FTP of a few years ago

[Jumma]

Well this afternoon I did my local hill climb. Mt Keira.

I did a segment without any stops (all except for having to lift my bike over two road barriers on the way quickly and then clipping back into my pedals). The gradient varies a little, however I went pretty much as hard as I could, without killing myself!

This segment is:
5.34 km long.
6% average with some section less and some at 10% plus.
324m of vertical accent.
When I saved my ride when I got home, the 510 told me that I had done a best 20 minute average max power of 285W (a new record according to Garmin).

Now I had ridden a few km to get to the hill to start with. So had done some warm up and a bit of fatigue.

After riding to the top, I rode to the lower barrier and did two more efforts to the second barrier. These segments are 2.1 km long (AT) 5% average. Though both these efforts were less than 7 minutes in duration they both averaged the same 285 Watts each.

I am pretty confident I should be able to 93-95% of these values and get an FTP between 265-270. If I set at 260 for now, I think it will be a pretty confident and realistic value.

As for 300 by the end of the year, it is a goal. I may not achieve it, however it is better to aim higher than lower

I don't mind punishing myself on the bike, especially on the hills, as that is one thing I really would like to improve on - my hill climbing. I am ranked 160/493 on this 5.3 km climb up Mt Keira, so at least I have something to gauge and a scale to improve against, including my own efforts.

Another thing I am trying to do more of is standing efforts on the hills. I stand and push out of the saddle until my quads and calves feel like they are going to explode. I figure this is the way to improve my sprinting ability so I will keep doing this.

And - speaking of saddles, I finally got my new Shimano pro Turnix 132mm saddle today. It is awesome!!! I always thought that I would be best on a wider saddle but this narrow little, flat and minimalist saddle is the best Maybe the saddle is why I climbed so well today

I will post my progress up later down the track for those that are interested.

Once again thanks for all the replies and advice and hope you all produce lots of watts.

Cheers

James

[Jumma]

OK. As for trainer sessions.

Yesterday I did a 25 minute warm up, including 3 x 1 minute all out efforts. 5 minute recover. 3x8 minute intervals (AT) 100-105% FTP i.e. 260-273 Watts Range with 5 min recover in between. this is based on FTP 260.

This is above and to 105% or FTP so I figured it should feel "hard". It was hard by the time I got 3/4 through the last set, however I found I pushed watts a bit higher in general, probably spent a lot of time over 273 W, in VO2 max - zone 5. So based on this and the fact that it was done on the trainer, I feel that 260 is a fair estimate of my FTP for now and I could possible even set it at or closer to 270 if I really wanted to. I will probably do that in two weeks, but will see how my stats go between now and then.

One thing I have found though is that my HR is way lower than I thought it would be for riding at FTP. By late into my third 8 minute interval and after almost one hour of non-stop spinning (a lot of it at below 90 cadence, hill climb territory) I should be reasonably fatigued. I was getting an average HR of 145 BPM. Considering my MHR is 175 at best. My understanding is that my LTHR should be around early 150's (about 155 or so). Once again I though that LTHR levels should be somewhere around FTP? These efforts I thought even higher as I was working upper range of FTP (105%).

I know I have been told to forget about HR, but I just cant make sense of why LTHR is not around FTP or higher??? It just doesn't add up for constant effort durations like these. I held the power within the range quite well, peaking only occasionally above 105% but rarely falling below 100% FTP. My resting HR is still sitting around 45-47 most mornings with no change which is normal and consistent. I am not stressed or fatigued. There certainly was plenty of sweat going on. I did not have the fan on, but it was only 13 C in my garage with the door open. My motivation was from a "full speed ahead" climb, pace and TT video running on the large screen TV I have fixed to the wall in front of me

Does anyone else find their expected HR (LTHR) to be different at their FTP? Or am I missing something here? Is it not true that LTHR should be around your FTP on a constant effort?

James

[Alex Simmons/RST]

HR and power levels don't always directly relate, for various reasons. You might find for instance it creeps higher if doing similar efforts outside.

[Derny Driver]

And that is the other thing I need to get more bunch ride experience as I have had very little and am a bit concerned about etiquette and doing the right thing, getting dropped etc. I need to find a group of friendly riders locally that I can ride regularly with.

James
When you are ready to join the club message me and I will look after you and introduce you to some people.
Once you are a member you will be welcome on the club group rides.
We have 200 members so you should be able to find people to train with.
The velodrome is booked most of the time but I have a key and can help you out there too.
Cheers,
Marcus
PS Mt Keira is open

[Jumma]

Thanks Marcus
When do summer races start? That's when I was looking at joining.
I am a bit nervous about road racing as I haven't tried it before. Worried about stuffing up, or not bunch riding correctly. So thanks.
Mt Keira? No more gates? Awesome. No more lifting over the two gates anymore!! Hope this weather improves and i'll be riding up there tomorrow afternoon.
I'll do that re the club.
Thanks
James

[Xplora]

Jim, they have Z grade for a reason. Just ride around with the group, chase down any breaks, and try to win the sprint safely. They'll kick you out into Y and X grades as appropriate. No crime with sandbagging as a beginner to racing. You learn. Just remember you can open your mouth and talk to other people in the bunch, no mindreading required.

[Cul]

Just remember you can open your mouth and talk to other people in the bunch, no mindreading required.

This!!!...

Best advice ever, and I am not sure why so many seem to rely on mindreading!

[Jumma]

Yes. I notice a lot of talking between riders in the pro teams in the on bike camera footage

Thanks for advice.

[Derny Driver]

Thanks Marcus
When do summer races start? That's when I was looking at joining.
I am a bit nervous about road racing as I haven't tried it before. Worried about stuffing up, or not bunch riding correctly. So thanks.
Mt Keira? No more gates? Awesome. No more lifting over the two gates anymore!! Hope this weather improves and i'll be riding up there tomorrow afternoon.
I'll do that re the club.
Thanks
James

Hi James
Summer racing starts Sunday 5th October at 8:30am at Huntley. The summer course is flat, you might prefer the winter course which has a nice hill in it (Marshall Mt).
Don't stress about bunch stuff, everyone is friendly and will help you out with advice during the races.
You'd be ok to go straight into C grade I reckon.
Details of race program on the Illawarra Cycle Club website.
You can get a Cycling Australia 2015 licence from October 1 this year, that's a free 3 months licence and insurance. Perfect timing for you.
That's only for people who have never held a CA licence before, which is you. You can fill in the forms at the club on the day if you arrive a bit early.

[Jumma]

That's great thanks. I will arrange and pay for my CA license before the first season race. I'll check it out on the ICC site. I use to work for SOTO their sponsor and still MTB ride with some of the guys from there on occasion. I'll have a chat to Frank.

By 3 months free I am assuming this means the license goes from January to the next January. Obviously this covers the winter Saturday race season too then. Sweet!

That's great to hear they are all friendly. I was thinking people would be guarded and very competitive.

Ok. I have another month of training to get myself ready

Thanks again

James


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Derny Driver]

Frank and I used to race together back in the day. He's a good guy but don't believe anything he tells you about me.

[fluro2au]

Hi Jumma,

You don't need to overthink FTP testing too much, if it is close, then that will be fine to calculate your PMC chart and weekly TSS and IF score...Overtime, just through training, you'll be able to fine tune your FTP and dial it in.

Just open up your Power Profile chart and get an idea of where your strengths and weaknesses are. use that information to then set up your interval work. For example, if your CP5 sucks, then do 3-8min intervals to address. Keep doing intervals until you can't hold power. Then just add slight more the next week....build, build build.

Also, look at your races, are they crits, RR, do they have hills, how many hills, etc...Then just do sessions, that match the conditions of the race...Keep the focus on raising your power, use Strava which is great for tracking this.

Once that is done, just load yourself up in other areas, that will help build your CTL, which will then in turn, improve your ability to train. So once you have your CTL up you can move from a 1 day on 1 day off, protocol to something like a 2 days on 1 day off protocol. Just keep loading, keep an eye on your TSB, take it deep, level it out for a while, then bring it back up and go again...

Like I said, don't get to hung up on your FTP, focus on what it is you expect to be experiencing in races, focus on that, as that will give you the results, not an impressive FTP number

Paul