Training Pace vs Race Pace
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Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby ft_critical » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:06 pm
Imagine... You have access to a race course, 2.5hrs, two 3km 5% climbs and a flat sprint finish (this is included so we see our race will require multiple abilities). You know the pacing (power) required to successfully contest at the end. There is a 10 or 15% gap between your current training (so you have a good base) pacing and the target race pacing. This is the only race target for the year and the race is a year away.
Pacing means we can break down each section of the course and know what power (watts per kg basis) is required.
A training strategy might be to just repeatedly ride the course until you achieve race pacing. I have heard this is not the optimal strategy. Why not?
Is it because it would take too long? Because we need to make specific adaptations for certain sections of the course and must focus on those - focus on the limiters?
Thanks for your views,
FT
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Strawburger » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:22 pm
By the looks, there are three key events in the race: 2x climbs (5min power) and 1x sprint (15-30sec power, possibly 1min power in the lead up to the sprint).
Nail those, anything else could vary significantly.
Unless it is a time trial
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Strawburger » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:26 pm
Breakaway(s) could have you either in the bunch chasing or off the front staying away
A slow race where you sit in for 95% of the race and saving all energy for the climbs or sprint
Mechanicals or crashes where you need to chase back on to the pack
Weather / wind direction changes the power output on the different segments of the course
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby foo on patrol » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:22 pm
Foo
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby ft_critical » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:36 pm
I think you slightly miss the point Strawburger. I know all about the other variables.Strawburger wrote:Too many variables on race day?
By the looks, there are three key events in the race: 2x climbs (5min power) and 1x sprint (15-30sec power, possibly 1min power in the lead up to the sprint).
Nail those, anything else could vary significantly.
Unless it is a time trial
But if you look at a race, break it up into sectors and look at the power output (average) in watts per kilo of the participants in this race you would know what race pace you need to maintain to just be there.
The thing is, you need more than just X 5min power for the climbs. You have to have the power for the flat bit before it and then maintain X watts per kilo on the climb etc. So it is a package deal. You need to be able to maintain a certain output in each of the 'sections/sectors' combined.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Strawburger » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:16 pm
For me, I break up the sectors and what comes out as the only significant things are hills and sprint finishes. The rest of the course is insignificant as I can usually hide and reserve the energy for the critical areas and the rest is far too unpredictable to train for.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Strawburger » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:22 am
When I prepared for the nationals in buninyong I saw two critical sectors per lap and trained accordingly. The rest I couldn't predict. Same when I was preparing for the state champs.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Derny Driver » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:03 pm
My dad coached Dave Watson, Australian road race champion, Mexico Olympian, professional with Ti Carlton / Raleigh in the UK for 2 years....this was in the days where riders tried to race according to their heart rate. I remember Watto saying to some other guys one day "So you are looking at you heart rate monitor, you are on your maximum, and the race goes up the road. What are you going to do? Do what the heart rate monitor tells you and sit up?"
Mate just get yourself as fit as you can and race the damn race. Race it tactically and smart and conserve wherever possible. When you need to make the effort up the hill or whatever, do it. DO NOT have your garmin set to power, display distance only so you know how far to the finish. You dont want to mess with your own head by looking at numbers.
Practise the course so you are familiar with the length and grade of the hills, practise the finish so you know how far you can sprint. Measure the distance from the line back 200, 250, 300 metres and note a tree or landmark as a guide so you dont go early.
I have never heard of a rider considering doing what you are thinking of doing.
* Get fit by whatever means you know works for you
* Practise the course at less than race pace, just getting a feel for it
* On race day clear your head, have simple but clear tactics in your head. Pay attention to the race favourites. Relax and dont let nervous tension sap your energy.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby ft_critical » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:44 pm
DD talking about training for a race.Derny Driver wrote:A race cant be won by playing a numbers game.
How do I know if I am fit enough before I turn up?Derny Driver wrote:Mate just get yourself as fit as you can and race the damn race.
So, to extend my example a bit... From memory Strawburger you race open C at say Mudgee or Coota etc. Let's say you decided to race open A. I don't think that you can hide for the race. How fit do you need to be to have enough in reserve for the climbs or key sectors?Strawburger wrote:The rest of the course is insignificant as I can usually hide and reserve the energy for the critical areas and the rest is far too unpredictable to train for.
Surely if you looked at the watts per kilo of those racing, sector by sector, and replicated it, this would be a reasonable training idea?
But we are all attacking the premise not the question. Can I just ride the course for a year and eventually I will hit the right power numbers through bloody minded determination?
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby foo on patrol » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:34 pm
Train smart,yes but there is a big gap between the two levels.
Foo
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Strawburger » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:36 pm
I have checked out opponents values for certain climbs or segments that I have ridden before to get an idea of what they can do. I would then break up the course into critical areas and train specifically to make sure I can match or better what my opponents could do in their peak form for that particular course segment (if they don't have the exact data). What I don't do is train at race pace for the entire length as I don't see any value in that. Instead I would work on improving my FTP and vo2max to get me in tip top shape for what could possibly happen during race day.
There is one course I have access to (for the tour of Canberra), I ride that course a few times a year to get familiar with it. Rather that riding hard for the length, I would only ride hard for the critical sections and possibly in the lead up/after that.
There was only one race where I would consider "open a" I would have done. Ive also been dropped from a few handicap races and joined the block and scratch groups. Observing the difficulty of being on the front of those groups compared to sitting in is vastly different. If I were to enter an a open I would not kid myself with attempting to be on the front. I can manage my efforts in the lead up to the key points within the race. I know I would never be able to match their power (I wasn't born to the right parents), so for me it's using my head.
If you could see yourself improving by that 10-15% (which is huge by the way), I would do some course replication but not doing the whole course. I think you would probably burn out!
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Xplora » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:25 pm
You've just gotten the power meter, FT - you will notice that hard interval training will increase your maximums very very very quickly once you've got your base sorted out. If you haven't read the Coggan/Hunter book and the Friel books, it's time. They make much more sense once you've got the power meter and you've got the goal in mind. My current goal "get stronger to survive A grade, and hopefully stay in the break" is way too vague to apply their training principles well... but a race like the Ken Dinnerville is a very clear goal, with clear requirements to succeed, and you can work towards those. Can you win? I wouldn't restrict myself to that... aim to place top 5, or finish in the break, and monitor your training to see what is achievable. You could be kidding yourself for 2016, but 2017 might have enough experience to get it together.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:06 pm
There are no race day miracles wrt fitness.foo on patrol wrote:You are over thinking things, FT. I said it above, race fitness and training fitness are two seperate entities, you can only achieve race fitness, by racing.
Train smart,yes but there is a big gap between the two levels.
Foo
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Cul » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:07 pm
Personally I haven’t read the Andrew Coggan / Hunter Allan books despite using a PM for 2 years now; if you do however and find yourself interested I would also recommend reading up on the alternative viewpoints.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:12 am
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby ft_critical » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:29 pm
Very quotable Alex! I agree and this is the main point.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:There are no race day miracles wrt fitness.
I don’t think that it is just being able to do a climb at threshold or race pace. My race experience, in bigger races, is that the hammer is dropped well before these critical points in the race. People are fighting for position or trying to get away well before them. This drives up the general race pace. You need to be able to comfortably survive this and be able to deploy the required power on these critical sectors also.toolonglegs wrote:Surely your goal is to get over the climbs and then comes what may.
I think that this is what brings people undone. They think that they just need to be able to climb at 5watts per kilo for 10min or sprint 1300 at watts. But they can’t because they have burned out from the rest of the race. As Strawburger suggests this is working on FTP to hang in the race.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby toolonglegs » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:25 am
FTP is always number one... raise your FTP higher and the less time you have to spend above it.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby ft_critical » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:17 am
Self-handicapping.toolonglegs wrote:Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie.
You need to know what you need to be able to do in the race to be there.
Then my question was ...
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:05 am
Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.toolonglegs wrote:Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:15 am
It's not an original quote of mine. I have heard Andy Coggan use it, but I can't say whether it's an original quote of his either.ft_critical wrote:Very quotable Alex! I agree and this is the main point.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:There are no race day miracles wrt fitness.
Specificity matters in training, and breaking down a race and understanding the demands is most useful however racing is a dynamic ever changing beast with many strategies and tactics being played out by a group with variable abilities and experience.
As a result you have to build fitness as well as you can that is most suitable for the key physiological demands (there are not that many physiological attributes to think about), race often to gain the experience, craft and nous required, and have strategies in mind to deal with various scenarios.
If you are well down on the fitness level likely needed for competing in a given race, then there is no point doing anything other than to conserve, learn, enjoy the experience and make sure you don't bring anyone else down and thank everyone involved for helping to run the event. With any luck you will have a few buddies you can finish the ride off with and have a laugh.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby toolonglegs » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:20 am
I don't know anything about Grafton ... yes sure it happens, also where the climbs are in the race too. So with Grafton it would have some extremely strong riders of national level who could do a lot of damage early on if the opportunity arrived?. Still for me personally getting over the climb would be paramount. But then I am a larger unit , I can't remember FT's characteristic's. The times I have gotten over a big climb in the front group have only been when my FTP is high and also 5 minute power is at its best. To be honest then I probably still got dropped on the climb and had to bury myself to get back on.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.toolonglegs wrote:Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.
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Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby queequeg » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:24 am
I am expecting it to be brutal. 12 Groups, 110km course (5 Laps of West Head), finish line is the top of "The Wall" on lap 5.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:06 am
It was an a example of riders self grading themselves above their ability.toolonglegs wrote:I don't know anything about Grafton ... yes sure it happens, also where the climbs are in the race too. So with Grafton it would have some extremely strong riders of national level who could do a lot of damage early on if the opportunity arrived?.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.toolonglegs wrote:Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby macca33 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:35 am
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.toolonglegs wrote:Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.
A young fella by the name of Monk may have had something to do with that!
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Re: Training Pace vs Race Pace
Postby Cul » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:27 pm
Getting a fair way off topic here but what puzzles me is how this could happen at national level event; similarly how the opposite happens in a big at TOB and other big events…Alex Simmons/RST wrote:It was an a example of riders self grading themselves above their ability.
Australia needs a national grading points system…
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