Training Pace vs Race Pace

[ft_critical]

Hello BNA Coaching Staff.

Imagine... You have access to a race course, 2.5hrs, two 3km 5% climbs and a flat sprint finish (this is included so we see our race will require multiple abilities). You know the pacing (power) required to successfully contest at the end. There is a 10 or 15% gap between your current training (so you have a good base) pacing and the target race pacing. This is the only race target for the year and the race is a year away.
Pacing means we can break down each section of the course and know what power (watts per kg basis) is required.

A training strategy might be to just repeatedly ride the course until you achieve race pacing. I have heard this is not the optimal strategy. Why not?

Is it because it would take too long? Because we need to make specific adaptations for certain sections of the course and must focus on those - focus on the limiters?


Thanks for your views,

FT

[Strawburger]

Too many variables on race day?

By the looks, there are three key events in the race: 2x climbs (5min power) and 1x sprint (15-30sec power, possibly 1min power in the lead up to the sprint).

Nail those, anything else could vary significantly.

Unless it is a time trial

[Strawburger]

To expand on the variables:

Breakaway(s) could have you either in the bunch chasing or off the front staying away
A slow race where you sit in for 95% of the race and saving all energy for the climbs or sprint
Mechanicals or crashes where you need to chase back on to the pack
Weather / wind direction changes the power output on the different segments of the course

[foo on patrol]

You can't replicate race pace and conditions but only try to vary your training. That's why there is such a things as, Race Fitness.

Foo

[ft_critical]

Too many variables on race day?

By the looks, there are three key events in the race: 2x climbs (5min power) and 1x sprint (15-30sec power, possibly 1min power in the lead up to the sprint).

Nail those, anything else could vary significantly.

Unless it is a time trial

I think you slightly miss the point Strawburger. I know all about the other variables.

But if you look at a race, break it up into sectors and look at the power output (average) in watts per kilo of the participants in this race you would know what race pace you need to maintain to just be there.

The thing is, you need more than just X 5min power for the climbs. You have to have the power for the flat bit before it and then maintain X watts per kilo on the climb etc. So it is a package deal. You need to be able to maintain a certain output in each of the 'sections/sectors' combined.

[Strawburger]

Yeah maybe I did miss the point. I wasn't sure what you were asking for.

For me, I break up the sectors and what comes out as the only significant things are hills and sprint finishes. The rest of the course is insignificant as I can usually hide and reserve the energy for the critical areas and the rest is far too unpredictable to train for.

[Strawburger]

And thinking further, it's tough to estimate the required w/kg for sectors as it is so variable on the day. I would only isolate the hills and sprints as meaningful numbers when comparing other riders on the course.

When I prepared for the nationals in buninyong I saw two critical sectors per lap and trained accordingly. The rest I couldn't predict. Same when I was preparing for the state champs.

[Derny Driver]

ft this is a weird question. A race cant be won by playing a numbers game.
My dad coached Dave Watson, Australian road race champion, Mexico Olympian, professional with Ti Carlton / Raleigh in the UK for 2 years....this was in the days where riders tried to race according to their heart rate. I remember Watto saying to some other guys one day "So you are looking at you heart rate monitor, you are on your maximum, and the race goes up the road. What are you going to do? Do what the heart rate monitor tells you and sit up?"
Mate just get yourself as fit as you can and race the damn race. Race it tactically and smart and conserve wherever possible. When you need to make the effort up the hill or whatever, do it. DO NOT have your garmin set to power, display distance only so you know how far to the finish. You dont want to mess with your own head by looking at numbers.
Practise the course so you are familiar with the length and grade of the hills, practise the finish so you know how far you can sprint. Measure the distance from the line back 200, 250, 300 metres and note a tree or landmark as a guide so you dont go early.
I have never heard of a rider considering doing what you are thinking of doing.
* Get fit by whatever means you know works for you
* Practise the course at less than race pace, just getting a feel for it
* On race day clear your head, have simple but clear tactics in your head. Pay attention to the race favourites. Relax and dont let nervous tension sap your energy.

[ft_critical]

A race cant be won by playing a numbers game.

DD talking about training for a race.

Mate just get yourself as fit as you can and race the damn race.

How do I know if I am fit enough before I turn up?

The rest of the course is insignificant as I can usually hide and reserve the energy for the critical areas and the rest is far too unpredictable to train for.

So, to extend my example a bit... From memory Strawburger you race open C at say Mudgee or Coota etc. Let's say you decided to race open A. I don't think that you can hide for the race. How fit do you need to be to have enough in reserve for the climbs or key sectors?

Surely if you looked at the watts per kilo of those racing, sector by sector, and replicated it, this would be a reasonable training idea?

But we are all attacking the premise not the question. Can I just ride the course for a year and eventually I will hit the right power numbers through bloody minded determination?

[foo on patrol]

You are over thinking things, FT. I said it above, race fitness and training fitness are two seperate entities, you can only achieve race fitness, by racing.

Train smart,yes but there is a big gap between the two levels.

Foo

[Strawburger]

I see what you are getting at now ft!

I have checked out opponents values for certain climbs or segments that I have ridden before to get an idea of what they can do. I would then break up the course into critical areas and train specifically to make sure I can match or better what my opponents could do in their peak form for that particular course segment (if they don't have the exact data). What I don't do is train at race pace for the entire length as I don't see any value in that. Instead I would work on improving my FTP and vo2max to get me in tip top shape for what could possibly happen during race day.

There is one course I have access to (for the tour of Canberra), I ride that course a few times a year to get familiar with it. Rather that riding hard for the length, I would only ride hard for the critical sections and possibly in the lead up/after that.

There was only one race where I would consider "open a" I would have done. Ive also been dropped from a few handicap races and joined the block and scratch groups. Observing the difficulty of being on the front of those groups compared to sitting in is vastly different. If I were to enter an a open I would not kid myself with attempting to be on the front. I can manage my efforts in the lead up to the key points within the race. I know I would never be able to match their power (I wasn't born to the right parents), so for me it's using my head.

If you could see yourself improving by that 10-15% (which is huge by the way), I would do some course replication but not doing the whole course. I think you would probably burn out!

[Xplora]

Surely this is the entire point of "interval training"? Ride your climbs at 80-90% of your current max half a dozen times, go home. Sprint a dozen times, go home. Ride aerobically for 2.5 hours, go home. Gradually increase the difficulty over time.

You've just gotten the power meter, FT - you will notice that hard interval training will increase your maximums very very very quickly once you've got your base sorted out. If you haven't read the Coggan/Hunter book and the Friel books, it's time. They make much more sense once you've got the power meter and you've got the goal in mind. My current goal "get stronger to survive A grade, and hopefully stay in the break" is way too vague to apply their training principles well... but a race like the Ken Dinnerville is a very clear goal, with clear requirements to succeed, and you can work towards those. Can you win? I wouldn't restrict myself to that... aim to place top 5, or finish in the break, and monitor your training to see what is achievable. You could be kidding yourself for 2016, but 2017 might have enough experience to get it together.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

You are over thinking things, FT. I said it above, race fitness and training fitness are two seperate entities, you can only achieve race fitness, by racing.

Train smart,yes but there is a big gap between the two levels.

Foo

There are no race day miracles wrt fitness.

[Cul]

I have actually utilised this training method a few times, however it was an MTB course, it was local and it was only a short 5km lap; it worked but of course MTB racing is more about choosing the right lines, saving energy, and blasting off on the climbs… Xplora and a few others brought up a good point in that this is what interval training is for, you work on key elements of the race whilst building fitness and it’s only the in race that it all comes together. Of course other racing will bring about the skills to read the race, and also the fitness to dig a little deeper than one would in say training.

Personally I haven’t read the Andrew Coggan / Hunter Allan books despite using a PM for 2 years now; if you do however and find yourself interested I would also recommend reading up on the alternative viewpoints.

[toolonglegs]

Surely your goal (race and training wise) is to get over the climbs and then comes what may. In my experience a 3 km long 5% av climb will decimate most club level pelotons. Thinking of races that I have done around 100 km with similar length climbs with your average peloton of around 140 ... only 20 or so will get up a climb that long in the lead bunch. Obviously depends how it is raced but usually the climbs are hammered to drop the rouleurs... also depends how difficult the descent is ( can you ride like a nutter to get back on dropping 30 secs ) and where the climbs are in the race. We obviously have a gazillion climbs to chose from much longer than that but never go up them as there would be no one left in the race!.

[ft_critical]

There are no race day miracles wrt fitness.

Very quotable Alex! I agree and this is the main point.

Surely your goal is to get over the climbs and then comes what may.

I don’t think that it is just being able to do a climb at threshold or race pace. My race experience, in bigger races, is that the hammer is dropped well before these critical points in the race. People are fighting for position or trying to get away well before them. This drives up the general race pace. You need to be able to comfortably survive this and be able to deploy the required power on these critical sectors also.
I think that this is what brings people undone. They think that they just need to be able to climb at 5watts per kilo for 10min or sprint 1300 at watts. But they can’t because they have burned out from the rest of the race. As Strawburger suggests this is working on FTP to hang in the race.

[toolonglegs]

Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving. On the climb itself unless you are a very gifted climber in a bunch of roulers, you are going to be WAY OVER threshold.

FTP is always number one... raise your FTP higher and the less time you have to spend above it.

[ft_critical]

Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie.

Self-handicapping.

You need to know what you need to be able to do in the race to be there.

Then my question was ...

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.

Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

There are no race day miracles wrt fitness.

Very quotable Alex! I agree and this is the main point.

It's not an original quote of mine. I have heard Andy Coggan use it, but I can't say whether it's an original quote of his either.

Specificity matters in training, and breaking down a race and understanding the demands is most useful however racing is a dynamic ever changing beast with many strategies and tactics being played out by a group with variable abilities and experience.

As a result you have to build fitness as well as you can that is most suitable for the key physiological demands (there are not that many physiological attributes to think about), race often to gain the experience, craft and nous required, and have strategies in mind to deal with various scenarios.

If you are well down on the fitness level likely needed for competing in a given race, then there is no point doing anything other than to conserve, learn, enjoy the experience and make sure you don't bring anyone else down and thank everyone involved for helping to run the event. With any luck you will have a few buddies you can finish the ride off with and have a laugh.

[toolonglegs]

Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.

Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.

I don't know anything about Grafton ... yes sure it happens, also where the climbs are in the race too. So with Grafton it would have some extremely strong riders of national level who could do a lot of damage early on if the opportunity arrived?. Still for me personally getting over the climb would be paramount. But then I am a larger unit , I can't remember FT's characteristic's. The times I have gotten over a big climb in the front group have only been when my FTP is high and also 5 minute power is at its best. To be honest then I probably still got dropped on the climb and had to bury myself to get back on.

[queequeg]

I am doing "The Wall" Handicap this Saturday at West Head. After reading this thread, I think I will setting the Garmin to basically show the Time, Distance & Lap Count.
I am expecting it to be brutal. 12 Groups, 110km course (5 Laps of West Head), finish line is the top of "The Wall" on lap 5.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.

Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.

I don't know anything about Grafton ... yes sure it happens, also where the climbs are in the race too. So with Grafton it would have some extremely strong riders of national level who could do a lot of damage early on if the opportunity arrived?.

It was an a example of riders self grading themselves above their ability.

[macca33]

Yes but if you can't hang on the flat with the bunch before the climb then you are in the wrong Categorie. That's just good bunch skills at conserving.

Like the large number that got spat out at Grafton this year before the climb.

A young fella by the name of Monk may have had something to do with that!

[Cul]

It was an a example of riders self grading themselves above their ability.

Getting a fair way off topic here but what puzzles me is how this could happen at national level event; similarly how the opposite happens in a big at TOB and other big events…
Australia needs a national grading points system…