The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

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ft_critical
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby ft_critical » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:51 pm

cerb wrote:Did 4 sets of 6mins intervals with random duration billiats 15-30sec at 1.3xFTP with 0.95xFTP floats last night. First couple of sets were AOK, but the last couple.... OUCH! ...they'd better be helping me get faster!
Thanks to g-boaf, I created a good set that is similar, I call it Under Over Variety Pack.

It is 3 lots of 20min - 10min in between.

set one: 5min at .85, 5min at FTP, 5min at .85, 5min at FTP.
set two: 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3, 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3, 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3, 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3.
set three 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0, 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0, 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0, 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0.

I really like the fact you have to recover back to FTP .85 as quickly as possible when all you want to do is stop. It also works you for breaks and efforts in the race. Does not help sprinting though.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:08 pm

ft_critical wrote:
cerb wrote:Did 4 sets of 6mins intervals with random duration billiats 15-30sec at 1.3xFTP with 0.95xFTP floats last night. First couple of sets were AOK, but the last couple.... OUCH! ...they'd better be helping me get faster!
Thanks to g-boaf, I created a good set that is similar, I call it Under Over Variety Pack.

It is 3 lots of 20min - 10min in between.

set one: 5min at .85, 5min at FTP, 5min at .85, 5min at FTP.
set two: 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3, 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3, 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3, 4min at .85, 1min at 1.3.
set three 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0, 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0, 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0, 4.5min at .85, 30sec at 2.0.

I really like the fact you have to recover back to FTP .85 as quickly as possible when all you want to do is stop. It also works you for breaks and efforts in the race. Does not help sprinting though.
Although I might have inspired it somehow, I'm going nowhere near anything like that at the moment. :shock: :oops: That looks cruel! :) Maybe a bit later. If you search this site, there were some sprinting drills from Ben Kersten that will probably work well.

My suffering at the moment is all 60-65rpm intervals.

I'm doing them as 6x5min with about 2.5min rest in between each block. Or 5x5 with a bit more rest. 3x10min sometimes.

or a 7/6/5/4/3/2/1min with short rests and a nasty two building 1min bits at the end. That was something else that I did as low cadence instead. Sort of didn't work - the 3/2/1min bits are too easy. That is designed more for doing a high cadence at 100% or more.

I'm struggling along with 6x5 at the moment, 270-275w at 60rpm. I'm keeping going with those for a few more weeks. It's helping. I'm not dieing as easily.

Thinking of trying 2x20min at 60rpm as well, probably with a longer rest in between. Might be too hard... Worth trying.

It's methods that are probably all outdated, but it seems to be doing the trick.

Otherwise, just don't get injured.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:27 pm

20 min intervals though.. urgh.. the simultaneous boredom and pain! Good for developing 'mental toughness'!

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby Cul » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:46 pm

Now Spring / Summer are here this thread is alive again… Where were you blokes all winter? :!: :!: :!:

This season I am determined to race (read roll around) at the MTB Nationals, it just so happens Oceania Champs, National XC and Marathon champs all happen to be in QLD so it makes committing that little bit easier. I have been going since August and while it has been a tough slog, with a lot of work, kid stuff and other life factors getting in the way I feel like now I am starting to feel the fitness kicking in. :lol:

This season I am taking a bit of a loose approach to programing, with a plan set at season and macro level but not too worried about the micro details managing the workouts, training load and fatigue on the fly. Racing will form a big part of the plan and as I eluded to in the other thread there is a fair butt load of racing between now and my “A” Races. :idea:


This morning was an Hour of Power on the MTB, felt reasonably easy but speed and power data tell a different story. :lol:
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:17 pm

Cul wrote:Now Spring / Summer are here this thread is alive again… Where were you blokes all winter? :!: :!: :!:

This season I am determined to race (read roll around) at the MTB Nationals, it just so happens Oceania Champs, National XC and Marathon champs all happen to be in QLD so it makes committing that little bit easier. I have been going since August and while it has been a tough slog, with a lot of work, kid stuff and other life factors getting in the way I feel like now I am starting to feel the fitness kicking in. :lol:

This season I am taking a bit of a loose approach to programing, with a plan set at season and macro level but not too worried about the micro details managing the workouts, training load and fatigue on the fly. Racing will form a big part of the plan and as I eluded to in the other thread there is a fair butt load of racing between now and my “A” Races. :idea:


This morning was an Hour of Power on the MTB, felt reasonably easy but speed and power data tell a different story. :lol:
Oh, just noticed the topic seemed to be dead, so I didn't contribute anything either. :) I was actually riding alright until I got injured, and then I just lost all fitness that I had. So I'm trying to gather it all back. Just looking back at times I used to do up certain hills, I can't get anywhere near those anymore. A local one I used to do at 34-38km/h, now it's struggling along there at 28... :oops:

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:59 pm

Cul wrote:Where were you blokes all winter? :!: :!: :!:
Hibernating! :)

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:43 pm

5x5 yesterday, 275w at 65rpm. Pretty tired- but got through that.

Today did some over/under intervals at 100rpm+. Feels so easy in comparison, even at higher power. Seems like that slow grinding away on the pedals is working. :)

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:55 pm

Did 255w /263w NP for an hour today.

It felt hard, but not too bad. I'm getting some nice gains again.

Glad I didn't bother with trying 2x18 minute efforts at low cadence. I did a 3x12 yesterday, using the gears rather than ergo mode - that is hard.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:43 pm

This morning - 1 hour, 232w and 272w NP.

This afternoon, I had a go at trying low rpm intervals for longer than 10 minutes. Went okay.

Certainly easy to see why people still do that. Go spinning at 95rpm or better and it feels like nothing at all.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:28 am

Did a session on the trainer last night, but for the second session in a row, I'm getting massive lag/sync issues between trainerroad and my kickr.

When you're doing over-unders 25s on / 15sec off and it starts the interval on time, but makes the interval 35-40sec instead of 25sec it sure is demoralising as you get almost zero break..! It's also random, so I can't even know it's coming and just plan to suffer it out!

Have emailed TR & Wahoo to try and find the solution as this issue has stuffed up 3 training sessions now!

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:16 pm

cerb wrote:Did a session on the trainer last night, but for the second session in a row, I'm getting massive lag/sync issues between trainerroad and my kickr.
Frustrating I bet. Especially when you are putting in a decent effort, or trying to.

I did 6x5 minutes today, all at 95% (297w), and normal cadence (100rpm) and the last one at 297-360w. First five were not that hard, the last one was pretty hard for the last minute of it. TSB was already -15, so I'm happy with that. Rest tomorrow.

I want to try a 2x20min next week at 65-70rpm, see if I can manage it.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby jasonc » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:53 am

tuesday morning i did 3x 7 mins @110% (2 mins in between). calf has been a bit sore since

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:57 am

You're certainly into the low rpm, threshold efforts right now g-boaf! Do you do any/much Vo2max, anaerobic work as well?

My training currently cosists of 2 sessions VO2max & anaerobic work a week where I do lots of short intervals (usually no longer than 2mins) at up to 180% FTP. The third session is usually over & unders in blocks of 5-10mins.

Have been thinking about swapping 1x anaerobic session out for a 2x20min session at 80-95% FTP in order to do more Tempo/Threshold work and improve muscular endurance so that i'm more 'fresh' at the end of races. Riding low cadence obviously moves the work more away from your cardio system and onto the muscular system, which should bring better improvements. But, as I predominantly race crits, I really need to keep the explosive power too! So... couple of questions:

Do you find large amounts of low cadence work on the trainer affects your cadence on the road? i.e. My natural cadence is 105-108rpm for 150-330W and then increases gradually with sustained power output, topping out at around 145-150rpm. It's taken a long time to increase my cadence and feel comfortable here and I think i'd struggle to stay as slow as 75rpm without a lot of concentration... If I did that regularly, I feel like my natural cadence would also drop to sub 100rpm - which isn't ideal for high power output. Has your natural cadence been affected?

I also understand that threshold and sub-threshold work boosts your 'engine' effectively making it easier for you to get to the end of the race. But does the lack of anaerobic work leave you a bit lacking in 'sharpness' for the short duration, high intensity requirements, particularly at the end of a race?

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:54 am

cerb wrote:You're certainly into the low rpm, threshold efforts right now g-boaf! Do you do any/much Vo2max, anaerobic work as well?

My training currently cosists of 2 sessions VO2max & anaerobic work a week where I do lots of short intervals (usually no longer than 2mins) at up to 180% FTP. The third session is usually over & unders in blocks of 5-10mins.

Have been thinking about swapping 1x anaerobic session out for a 2x20min session at 80-95% FTP in order to do more Tempo/Threshold work and improve muscular endurance so that i'm more 'fresh' at the end of races. Riding low cadence obviously moves the work more away from your cardio system and onto the muscular system, which should bring better improvements. But, as I predominantly race crits, I really need to keep the explosive power too! So... couple of questions:

Do you find large amounts of low cadence work on the trainer affects your cadence on the road? i.e. My natural cadence is 105-108rpm for 150-330W and then increases gradually with sustained power output, topping out at around 145-150rpm. It's taken a long time to increase my cadence and feel comfortable here and I think i'd struggle to stay as slow as 75rpm without a lot of concentration... If I did that regularly, I feel like my natural cadence would also drop to sub 100rpm - which isn't ideal for high power output. Has your natural cadence been affected?

I also understand that threshold and sub-threshold work boosts your 'engine' effectively making it easier for you to get to the end of the race. But does the lack of anaerobic work leave you a bit lacking in 'sharpness' for the short duration, high intensity requirements, particularly at the end of a race?
Not yet, I don't feel I'm ready for the Vo2 stuff yet. But I did do some anaerobic earlier in the week just for a change up and that was alright, but I'll certainly do a bit more later on.

On the question of cadence, the low cadence doesn't affect my regular speed I pedal at, I stay at around 100-110rpm anyway and I max out at 175rpm, that doesn't seem to change. Low RPM I think does take concentration in pedalling smoothly - and trying not to rock about.

What I'm feeling is the low rpm stuff at threshold seems to be getting me a lot of strength in the legs that I had lost. Because when I change it up for higher rpm (100rpm or so) I can spin at higher power for a decent length of time and do it fairly easy - maybe 6/10 for effort. I'm thinking to do a bit more of the low rpm stuff for a few more weeks and then try to do the Vo2 stuff. What I did yesterday was with a fair amount of fatigue anyway and I did that quite well - so it looks to be going the right way. Old fashioned ideas all that low rpm intervals, but it seems to be working well.

The ride home turned into a bit of a sharp effort as well thanks to the stupid rain and trying to outrun it. :) Definitely feeling the effects of it all today, really heavy/sore legs - but Friday is generally the day I don't ride or take it easy so that's all okay.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:08 am

Thanks! Might have a crack at some. I'm at the stage where any time on the bike will be improving my fitness, so maybe not the best time to evaluate different methods(??), but certainly a good time to add in some extra base.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:53 pm

If you feel any pain in your knees though, stop immediately. That's the only real risk.

I did about 30 minutes today of easy spinning - turned everything way down and still my legs hurt like hell. I guess they'll be good tomorrow. :)

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby jack11 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:47 pm

3 x 5mins at 115% of FTP this morning. Wanted to do 5 reps but ran out of time to get to work. Good hit out none the less.
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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:25 pm

I had a big ride on Sunday, did some over/under intervals yesterday. Today some Z2 for about an hour and the riding to and from work.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:18 am

g-boaf - Tried your low cadence intervals on a 2x25min+5 min ramp session last Friday. Managed to sustain 80rpm, but took me 2-3 mins to settle into it and a lot of concentration to keep it that low. Legs felt pretty good and no sore joints etc.. 10/10 - will do again.

Got to do our local fast bunchie here yesterday as it was a public holiday. Haven't done it for 2 years due to my small 'life dominating' and demanding distraction who arrived... 2 years ago. Sat near the front of the bunch on the way down, but didn't roll any turns as I wanted to see how I'd feel and sus it out again. Still feeling good, I then rolled turns at the front all the way home, which was a big change to last time I did it - when I could only manage pulling a turn or two!

Got dumped on the front 500m out from the final sprint and then a few of the remaining riders wound up behind me (when I had nothing left)... and left me for dead at 250m to go.

Averaged 170bpm and 42kph including stopping for 3-4 traffic lights, so it was a pretty solid session!

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:02 pm

cerb wrote:g-boaf - Tried your low cadence intervals on a 2x25min+5 min ramp session last Friday. Managed to sustain 80rpm, but took me 2-3 mins to settle into it and a lot of concentration to keep it that low. Legs felt pretty good and no sore joints etc.. 10/10 - will do again.

Got to do our local fast bunchie here yesterday as it was a public holiday. Haven't done it for 2 years due to my small 'life dominating' and demanding distraction who arrived... 2 years ago. Sat near the front of the bunch on the way down, but didn't roll any turns as I wanted to see how I'd feel and sus it out again. Still feeling good, I then rolled turns at the front all the way home, which was a big change to last time I did it - when I could only manage pulling a turn or two!

Got dumped on the front 500m out from the final sprint and then a few of the remaining riders wound up behind me (when I had nothing left)... and left me for dead at 250m to go.

Averaged 170bpm and 42kph including stopping for 3-4 traffic lights, so it was a pretty solid session!
Okay, what percent were you doing on that? I'd start off with 88% of your FTP and keep the cadence low, around 65-70rpm (or lower, but not less than 55rpm). If that feels okay, then you can start to up the percentage to 92%. What you should feel is the legs will probably be burning by the end of each interval, especially the last one, but your heart rate and breathing should be pretty steady and easy.

As you do more of them, you should gradually be able to do them at higher power levels a bit more easily, and then after a good long block of them, coming back to your normal 100rpm even at 100% should feel easier. If it feels easy enough, then I'd give an FTP test a go.

Sounds like you've got the idea of it. :)

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:26 pm

Damn - long intervals at low cadence are hard work. They hurt! 70rpm.

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Legs burn, but HR doesn't go very high. Might have managed them at 275w, but since it was my first go, better to be conservative.

Happy with that. :)

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:38 am

Yep, at 90% legs are burning by the end of the interval and i'm sweating like crazy, but HR is (relatively) low and i'm breathing easy.

I put in a 5min ramp at the end of each interval (up to 100% FTP) as this is part of my normal 2x25min workout (making it 2x30min with some extra TSS). The ramp probably isn't needed, but I don't do much training, so I like to throw in some extra stress on the recovery between intervals where possible to help aid fast recovery during races.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:43 am

Did a 1hr session this morning of 75% FTP at cadence 65-70 with 4x 20sec sprints at 180% every 8mins (at 115+ rpm). Felt good.

Started to feel my knee a touch at the 45min mark due to the low cadence work, so pushed cadence back up to 90+ for the final 15mins and spun the legs out. Knee felt good again before I even got to the end of the session.

Aiming for a double session today by doing some anaerobic work tonight. Haven't done a double session for a while - should be interesting!

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby g-boaf » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:40 pm

1 hour. :shock:

I ended up a little bit sore after what I did - but I kind of expected it, previously hadn't done longer than maybe 10 minute intervals like that. I had an easy spin yesterday and didn't do anything today thanks to a number of things conspiring against it. I want to try and work up to 2x30 minutes or 1x45min like that, but it'll take time.

A bit of work tonight on one of the bikes to put some 11 speed Di2 equipment on it and hopefully test it before the light fades.

Hoping to do a really long ride tomorrow.

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Re: The training thread: How was yours? (today/yesterday/etc)

Postby cerb » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:03 pm

Di2! I feel like i'm living in the past with my 10sp mehanical...! Still works ok though - no need to upgrade yet!

Managed to finish off my double session day tonight with an over/under session. Wound the last interval up 5%. Not because the second last was easy, but because that's what happens in a race! :lol:

109TSS for the day over two 1h sessions. Pretty happy with that!

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