Training Pace vs Race Pace

[ft_critical]

Right so some people get the premise, that you can work out roughly how fit you need to be for a race. The question though was how to train to get to that level - that being; you need to ride the distance at a certain (high intensity/output) and be able to execute the right output for the key sectors.

Why is just riding the course repeatedly until you can hang it all together not effective preparation?

[Bluejay87]

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Why is just riding the course repeatedly until you can hang it all together not effective preparation?

My understanding is that you don't do that for the same reason marathon runners don't do marathons to train for marathons; its too physically and even mentally demanding to be riding the whole thing at race pace multiple times per week.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

It was an a example of riders self grading themselves above their ability.

Getting a fair way off topic here but what puzzles me is how this could happen at national level event; similarly how the opposite happens in a big at TOB and other big events…

Because there is a big gap between those at the pointy and and the other 80+% making up the field.

[toolonglegs]

Why is just riding the course repeatedly until you can hang it all together not effective preparation?

For a TT it is great ... know the course like the back of your hand will help with pacing and cornering etc.
Riding the same course for a road race may help for tactics, nailing descents and knowing the arrival well. But for fitness part of it, it can be achieved anywhere. Of course if you are going to attack and solo to the win it would help with pacing... sort of turns into a TT then

[Derny Driver]

Right so some people get the premise, that you can work out roughly how fit you need to be for a race.

I still disagree with the premise.
You need to be 100% fit. If your best ever numbers are xxx then you need to be xxx fit on race day. Riding the course will not enable you to pull more wattage than you are capable of. If you are fully fit and prepared then you should be able to get up the climbs in the lead group or whatever.
I have helped guys to prepare for and win big championships and tours. The training is as follows. ...The rider does their usual training rides and gets fairly fit by doing the kilometers. About 6 weeks out they start hunting races every weekend, state opens or hard road races somewhere. 4 weeks out they ring me and we do motor pacing twice a week. They add in speed work on the track or interval training. If it's a hilly course they find hills that replicate the ones in the race and incorporate them. Last week before the race they taper slightly. If there is opportunity to ride the course before the race they ride it. If not, we drive it and talk about it.
Race starts, the guy is fit, has done his homework on the key favourites, and then it's down to experience as to what to do.
In any race there is no guarantee that the fittest guy, the best prepared, the one with the best numbers, will win. That's the joy and pain of bike racing.

[Xplora]

OK I think I might understand the question a bit better now FT.

You aren't going to be able to determine "how fit" YOU need to be. A guy like Alex has a buttload of power files and could tell you that your best chance of winning Heffron on a Tuesday is a 4.5w/kg FTP with a 18w/kg sprint over 17 seconds... (or something LOL) ... anything less, and you're packfill hoping to podium. Your target race would have similar power files that the right coach has access to. They could give you a ball park.

The best way to get to that "magical number" is to break down the race into abilities, and train so you achieve the magic number in each ability, and practice racing so you know how to spend your bikkies on race day. Joe Friel's book is awesome to understand it all. He's not the only authority, but it makes a good starting point that is cheaper than a coach. If I had dollars, I would STILL invest in a coach like Alex, because they have experience and resources that the self coached rider just can't get. Your style might respond better to certain training than others. A coach might know that. The basics of periodisation and race specific training is relatively simple in theory, but how does FT apply those to win his race next year? Easier said than done. I've suggested interval training - that's essentially a micro periodisation model. Train hard, then rest, then train, then rest, produces better gains than train without paying attention to intensity or rest. Speaking of which, I should sleep. Zoning out from lifting!

[ft_critical]

You need to be 100% fit. If your best ever numbers are xxx then you need to be xxx fit on race day. Riding the course will not enable you to pull more wattage than you are capable of.

DD, this is the nub of it. If you can ride at XXX and everyone is riding at XXX plus 5% that doesn’t help.
I also wonder about XXX being the wattage you are capable of.

Your target race would have similar power files that the right coach has access to.

X, plenty of data sources out there like… Strava.

And this was my question really. If you know what XXX plus 5% looks like by sector and for the whole race, you should be a be able to train for that. I believe that you have to put the pieces together, be able to ride at the required pace for each of the sectors you break up the race into, but then put all of that together in a single race. BUT, is that approach better than just riding the course time and time again? Why?

[Xplora]

Strava is worthless for power files. Really is. Wouldn't trust any of it. I have stopped sharing my power meter data recently on Strava, it's all estimates for me, and that estimate isn't even in the ballpark calibration issues, etc etc etc. I'm talking about real data. You might as well guess using Strava. Strava also doesn't really take into account the bunch hiding differences etc. Your coach would be able to say "OK, John attacked here" or "John tried to follow the break here" and it's not clear what is happening from Strava.

The key issue that gets mentioned is that fitness isn't related to the course, it's related to your race. The course is part of that, but the competition is more important. If your club's best TT guy takes off the front with 20kms to go and 2 other riders, are you going to bridge, or let it go? What if he did this straight after the final hill with 8kms to go? Riding the course won't prepare you for the deep hole of pain if you need to bridge.

TLDR. The race is much more than an average speed over 80-100kms. The nature of racing is that you will go deeper than usual, and you will not be able to replicate that effort in training by riding the course because you lack wheels to chase or hide behind.

[foo on patrol]

FT, a race ISN'T black and white! I don't care what power figures you can garnish from whatever source, you still can't calculate race variables and this is the what if variable that you can't factor in.

Foo

[ironhanglider]

You don't need a powermeter or even strava to figure this out FT.

The race is not against the course, it is against people. Find the people you are going to be racing against, and race against them now. If they beat you up hills, work on your climbing. If they beat you in the sprint, work on your sprinting. If they beat you by conserving more energy when they can and consequently having more energy when they need it, work on your tactics. If you are beating them in every scenario, get a contract.

Cheers,

Cameron