Breaking through FTP

[Mca.and]

Hey all,

Background is I have been riding fairly consistently over the past 2 yrs (logged 12,000km in 2014 and will be about 14,000 in 2015). I do a mix of racing (A crits and A/B road) and have seen an increase in FTP from about 280/290 to about 330/340. MY training consists mainly of long slow stuff. A typical week may be 350-450km (around 15 hrs) with some of the following thrown in (either a OR b OR c). All sweet spot and vo2 sessions I do on the kickr.

a. Race and 1-2 sweet spot sessions
b. Race and a harder session (vo2)
c. 1-2 sweet spot sessions

I have seen a bit of a plateau in FTP over the past 6 months or so. I just cant seem to significantly bump it up.

I was thinking of trying an increase sweet spot approach. i.e. doing 3 sweet spot sessions at 90% FTP from 40min- 80 min duration per session.

What successes have other people had in raising their FTP with a significant training background (i.e. you have been riding seriously for 2 or more years). I dont really have time for more than 16hrs a week on the bike.

Cheers

[g-boaf]

Others I know who've done it did a lot of vo2, eg 2x20min. But that's real torture.

I took the sweet spot approach to get mine up to just over 300w - just doing more of that and mixing it up with some slow/recovery rides.

[Cul]

Without knowing much more than the above, if it were me in the same spot I would take an easy week, then pile on the intensity (>z5) for two weeks, then take another easy week before testing.

During the hard weeks I would be aiming to do 3 blocks of 3 or 4 days of intervals, everything from 15sec on/off to 8mins (AT) 110% on the off days take it real easy!..

Change is the spice of life, some times that's all it takes to get over the plateau!


I think I have the same problem, but requires the opposite solution, 3 years of time crunched training has me thinking volume is what I need!

[Xplora]

Most important thing is varying the program. You will eventually stabilise no matter what the program does. It's worth doing a little periodisation and actually removing the sweet spot sessions once every couple of weeks, or remove the kms for a week and keep the race and sweet spot, and absolutely drill yourself when you are "working". The difficulty is your guesstimate kms is very varied.... 450 kms is enough to achieve everything you want, but if you are doing 250 once a month and jumping around with the rest, you might not be getting the consistency to break through.

I've been really getting good results from my weight lifting by cycling through sets of 12, 8, 5 and just did 3 a week ago. I only do 2 sets, after 4 sets was killing me and I couldn't recover to ride.... and the actual weights I was lifting weren't going up too fast. But I keep the volume manageable now, and use the variation of the reps and weight to create variety in the program... and I don't let myself get "too far" in the hole.

Why not do another VO2max session for 3 in a week? Or do a sprint session? Climbing session? Shake it up.

Ultimately, your program is working, you are racing A grade. You have to increase intensity and/or volume and if you can't survive that, by nutrition or rest, then you're maxed out.

[ajmit3]

Bump. I would like an answer to this from Alex or Dalai... facing same problem

[Xplora]

Search Hunter Allen "the next level" on Google. He's got a good answer... just increase workload by 20% and ensure you hit a 150km ride including an hour at threshold once a fortnight. Bam. It will work. But most people can't increase TSS by that much and remain sane or connected to society.

[3DKiwi]

Sounds like the original poster needs a coach or alternatively follow a structured training plan like what Trainerroad.com offers.

[thearthurdog]

First of all, a gain of 280/290 to about 330/340 I think is very impressive! I love sweetspot on the indoor trainer. Can't beat it.

[ft_critical]

First of all, a gain of 280/290 to about 330/340 I think is very impressive! I love sweetspot on the indoor trainer. Can't beat it.

If you look at the OP's original post his FTP was 250 or thereabouts. I was skeptical, but if you look through his 20 posts, there is a pretty clear description of how he did it. Probably he should be teaching us. I think the capped volume will prevent further improvements.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I don't think it's possible to provide a specific answer to the question. It would require far more detailed assessment than is possible in an open forum. It's not really possible on here to provide much more than general advice and information.

Some general principles:
- training gains slow and become harder to obtain as the years of consistent training roll on, but they are still attainable via various mechanisms, mostly via gains in fractional O2 utilisation at threshold and efficiency
- everyone is different in how they respond
- specificity matters
- physiological gains are only one part of the performance improvement strategy, there are many other areas of potential improvement
- there are also many individual factors involved, such as diet, rest of life factors, stress, recovery and sleep, medical, bike set up, psychological, experience, strategic and tactical nous, goals and so on.
- when things stagnate, to break through generally means a change is needed but deciding on what isn't always obvious, although in some cases it's the change of routine that helps as much as what that change is

[zill]

I was thinking of trying an increase sweet spot approach. i.e. doing 3 sweet spot sessions at 90% FTP from 40min- 80 min duration per session.

Doing more sweet spot rides will just make you better at ... doing sweet spot rides. If you want to increase your FTP, you need to train at over 100% of your FTP. This will mean shorter intervals at higher intensities.

[dalai47]

If you want to increase your FTP, you need to train at over 100% of your FTP.

Incorrect. You can push as well as pull your FTP up...

[zill]

Incorrect. You can push as well as pull your FTP up...

Can you elaborate?

[dalai47]

There are many ways to raise FTP. You don't need to do efforts above FTP to raise FTP. Efforts just below FTP can also raise FTP -by 'pushing' it up.

[Aussiebullet]

Yep SST works just fine at raising FTP and 20min power as does L2, L3 and L4. They are all targeted at raising aerobic capacity.
The less time you have to train the harder you need to go or eventually progression will stop, hence the reason very high level athletes tend to spend a lot of time training at lower intensities as well as mixing in some time at higher intensities.

[zill]

There are many ways to raise FTP. You don't need to do efforts above FTP to raise FTP. Efforts just below FTP can also raise FTP -by 'pushing' it up.

Yep SST works just fine at raising FTP and 20min power as does L2, L3 and L4. They are all targeted at raising aerobic capacity.

Ok, sweet spot riding is good to build endurance and lift anaerobic threshold. I'd like to believe that a combination of above FTP and sweet spot riding should be done. However, for incremental gains in FTP after the initial gains from "simply riding" I'd say above FTP intervals is far more important. Hence for the OP, intervals above FTP should be very important.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

There are many ways to raise FTP. You don't need to do efforts above FTP to raise FTP. Efforts just below FTP can also raise FTP -by 'pushing' it up.

Yep SST works just fine at raising FTP and 20min power as does L2, L3 and L4. They are all targeted at raising aerobic capacity.

Ok, sweet spot riding is good to build endurance and lift anaerobic threshold. I'd like to believe that a combination of above FTP and sweet spot riding should be done. However, for incremental gains in FTP after the initial gains from "simply riding" I'd say above FTP intervals is far more important. Hence for the OP, intervals above FTP should be very important.

I would say that nobody can answer the question of what's right for the OP. There is simply insufficient information upon which to make definite statements.

[dalai47]

Not saying there is no benefit to above FTP intervals.

I though prefer doing my 20min intervals at 95-100%. I find these a little easier to recover from so can do my next hard session sooner, which is increasingly important as I age. Also more likely to do the session as it hurts just a little less than riding 2*20 above FTP, so mentally easier to prepare for and do.

If doing shorter intervals I will do them at a higher percentage.

[zill]

Not saying there is no benefit to above FTP intervals.

I though prefer doing my 20min intervals at 95-100%. I find these a little easier to recover from so can do my next hard session sooner, which is increasingly important as I age. Also more likely to do the session as it hurts just a little less than riding 2*20 above FTP, so mentally easier to prepare for and do.

If doing shorter intervals I will do them at a higher percentage.

Usually, I will need one full rest day after a hard interval day. Are you suggesting even one full rest day is not enough after a hard intervals day?

Not all the time but on average I think if you are not hurting (in a good way i.e. not as a result of an injury) yourself enough than you won't improve as much. Or at least the improvements won't be as fast as you would like.

[g-boaf]

The rest day doesn't always mean doing nothing, you might just get out and go for a slow ride, avoid hills, use easy gears and low power. 1.5 hour would be plenty for that. That works well for helping the recovery.

I remember also some good advice for following up those low rpm intervals (55-65rpm) with a 1 hour easy ride shortly afterwards, just spinning over the legs, keeping the speed and effort low. It helps to stop sore legs quite well.

Same with another rider (who shall remain anonymous) who would follow up a gym session with a 45-60min easy ride for much the same reason.

[zill]

The rest day doesn't always mean doing nothing, you might just get out and go for a slow ride, easy gear and low power. 1.5 hour would be plenty for that.

Yes I know and it shouldn't matter how hard you trained the previous day.

[Cul]

I was revisiting this thread because as I stated in my thread above I have stagnated a bit in terms of performance gain, I am interested in hearing others opinions or even experiences in cresting the plateau; also keen to follow Mca.and’s progress! As I mentioned in my earlier post, I believe volume is need in my case to squeeze a little more out however the last few weeks haven’t quite gone to plan in that regard for various reasons – I have managed to tighten the consistency of the last two weeks a lot though still getting in plenty of work!

What successes have other people had in raising their FTP with a significant training background (i.e. you have been riding seriously for 2 or more years). I don’t really have time for more than 16hrs a week on the bike.

It seems one of your original questions wasn’t answered; for some back ground I rode MTB competitively from 16yo to 25yo, enjoying some success at local and state level, placing in a few endurance races. However I stopped riding in 2008 due to a shoulder injury. I began riding again in late 2012, in 2013 I started MTB racing and late 2013 I started road racing, the last 3 years have been quite “time crunched” due to having young children, working long hours, etc… I am hoping this year I can get in more volume, lose some (more) weight and push the FTP w/kg higher.

Mca.and's figures aren’t too dissimilar to mine over a similar period, each test completed towards the end of each year.

2013 - ~9,500kms - 286w
2014 - ~12,690kms - 333w
2015 - ~11,780kms - 339w (spent 2 months off due to injury)

[Mca.and]

Well whenever I have stagnated I have always tried something new.

I have already started the sweet spot approach so I will keep building on that and will let you know how I go after a month. It will probably take a bit longer than that for significant adaptions but I will release my FTP test results. It has worked well in the past so I anticipate with the right progressive overload I should be able to see an increase.

Numbers aiming for: 350W ftp and 1700w 5s power. Thats an increase of about 10w and 150w respectively.

Training aiming for: 305-310W (sweet spot) for 80-100 minutes. Should provide a solid amount of specificity for the road season. Racing crits is enough training at intensity atm

[cerb]

I agree with mixing things up. Increasing your output is about your body adapting to changes.

If you do the same thing repeatedly and your FTP has plateaued, your body obviously thinks it can do enough to meet the demands without needing to improve. So if you've been doing mostly sweet spot, try some HIIT or vice-versa! As mentioned previously, you can push or pull your FTP up. If one method isn't working, try another!

Also, "Simply Riding" provides very limited chance for improvements, particularly when you guys are already doing 10,000+km a year! A team mate used to do 16-20k km a year and was pretty average on the bike because they were basically all 'trash' ('just riding') km. As soon as he put in some specific training to build his FTP and short power intervals he became handy VERY quickly!

[Xplora]

"just riding" is awesome for base building, and should never be thrown away. If you focus on time crunched/HIIT approaches you get injured really fast and lose most of the benefits you gain. Just Riding is unlikely to hurt you because you'll gravitate to manageable workloads.