Diet Thread

[Nobody]

As I often say, the more I see of dysregulated appetite the more I think psychoemotional inputs are the primary problem, and where therapy should be focused.

A dysregulated lifestyle from the wrong values leading to dysregulated eating patterns? With the majority of people these days I would agree. I believe one of the symptoms of it is a "live to eat" mentality, rather than an "eat to live" one.
I'll also throw in food addictions, which could be somewhat related to, or symptomatic of the above.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Doctor discovers scurvy resurgence at Sydney hospital due to poor dietary habits

People with, or at risk of type 2 diabetes are often recommended a low-carbohydrate high-fat diet (LCHFD)

"I think the resurgence in my patients with diabetes might be in part because people with diabetes tend to avoid eating fresh fruit because it raises your blood glucose levels. They should still eat fresh fruit but they worry about their blood glucose levels.

"But then if they are also overcooking their vegetables, then you have a problem."

She said it could be a more widespread issue than is generally known.

I know a guy at work with diabetes. He says he can only eat minimal fruit because it raises his blood sugar. When I tell him I can (and often do) eat half a watermelon in a day, I believe he quietly thinks I'm foolish. Such is the state of the general education level of your average diabetic. It's all about GI to them and little else. In his case I've found he can't be taught anything different. He won't try changing his lifestyle to save his health.

Related:

Obesity, type-2 diabetes could lead to surge in heart disease deaths, report warns

The co-author of the report, Professor Jonathan Shaw, warned that the decline has begun to level out over the past five years and he is concerned that it in future heart disease death rates will actually begin to increase.

"This stagnation is being fuelled by rising rates of type-2 diabetes and obesity and a new epidemic of age-related heart conditions," Professor Shaw said.

[RhapsodyX]

And I'm quite happy to see your point of view if you back it up with something better than "because I said so".

I'd tell you about True North medical records re gall bladder disease, in addition to my personal experience, and the doctors' advice, but considering you don't believe anything not in the literature, and personally insult me by stating, or implying, I am a liar, I'd be wasting my time.

Well - you could stop repeatedly saying that my chosen dietary regime (Hopkins Ketogenic) is "Paleo", "Atkins" or "LCHF" for a start. And re. your point of view above - that's pretty close to anecdotal.

Meanwhile, I'd like to know your doctor's view of you adopting a high saturated fat diet, with your medical history, which apparently includes not having a gall bladder.

And why do you assume my saturated fat intake is high? I aim for high levels of mono/poly, not saturated.

As for the doctors, they don't care - my LDL/HDL ratio indicates I probably don't have the APOE E4 allele, my triglycerides are below normal range, my CRP (not hs), is below range. My diet is as high as I can make it in prebiotics, my fibre intake is greater than recommended and roughly double that of a "average" vegetarian, although not quite into vegan territory. But, as mentioned previously, I have no interest in search for the next portaloo in endurance events either.

Edit : clarifying the APOE bit. "Probable", as I haven't been tested, and I initially said E2... but it's the E4 who need to avoid fats and the E2 who are carb intolerant. And given I start putting weight on at about 100g/day of low GL wholefood carbs when I'm expending around 4K kCal/day , I'm fairly carb intolerant.

[CKinnard]

I believe one of the symptoms of it is a "live to eat" mentality, rather than an "eat to live" one.

This is compounded by the limited life experience of most these days...life wrapped in the cotton wool of popular culture and health carer litigation risk!

I think the majority would find it an absolute revelation not to take Calories for a week or more, and feel totally normal.
It would change their belief system about appetite, cravings, and 3 meals a day, profoundly.

[RhapsodyX]

As I often say, the more I see of dysregulated appetite the more I think psychoemotional inputs are the primary problem, and where therapy should be focused.

A dysregulated lifestyle from the wrong values leading to dysregulated eating patterns? With the majority of people these days I would agree. I believe one of the symptoms of it is a "live to eat" mentality, rather than an "eat to live" one.
I'll also throw in food addictions, which could be somewhat related to, or symptomatic of the above.
...

Somehow, I don't think bacteria suffer from moodiness.

In a series of experiments, the scientists demonstrated that the makeup of the "obese" microbiome was a major driver of accelerated post-dieting weight gain. For example, when the researchers depleted the intestinal microbes in mice by giving them broad-spectrum antibiotics, the exaggerated post-diet weight gain was eliminated.

Next, the scientists developed a machine-learning algorithm, based on hundreds of individualized microbiome parameters, which successfully and accurately predicted the rate of weight regain in each mouse, based on the characteristics of its microbiome after weight gain and successful dieting.

These molecules -- belonging to the class of organic chemicals called flavonoids that are obtained through eating certain vegetables -- are rapidly degraded by the "post-dieting" microbiome, so that the levels of these molecules in post-dieting mice are significantly lower than those in mice with no history of obesity. The researchers found that under normal circumstances, these two flavonoids promote energy expenditure during fat metabolism. Low levels of these flavonoids in weight cycling prevented this fat-derived energy release, causing the post-dieting mice to accumulate extra fat when they were returned to a high-calorie diet.

Linky.

[Nobody]

A dysregulated lifestyle from the wrong values leading to dysregulated eating patterns? With the majority of people these days I would agree. I believe one of the symptoms of it is a "live to eat" mentality, rather than an "eat to live" one.
I'll also throw in food addictions, which could be somewhat related to, or symptomatic of the above.
...

Somehow, I don't think bacteria suffer from moodiness.

In the end, if you don't have the mental disposition to make the correct food choices, then your microbiome will be less than ideal from both a prebiotic and probiotic point of view. As your post highlighted, usually a less than ideal microbiome affects your likelihood of becoming obese.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/tipping ... eroidetes/

I'll use myself as an example. The rest of my family are all technically obese with the fridge/freezer and cupboards having plenty of junk food in them. If I didn't have the mental stability and value set to be able to resist their influence and the food, then I'd still be overweight instead of below ideal body weight. Maintaining an ideal body weight in a food dysfunctional western society usually takes more than a fecal microbiota transplant. As you would know, it requires some (usually self) education and commitment. A person with a dysregulated lifestyle and value set will likely struggle with the will and commitment to change their lifestyle significantly, as I see in many examples around me.

[CKinnard]

It's hard enough dealing with appetite dysregulation even when you know the right stuff to eat, and do so (but get the portions wrong)......let alone don't know and don't want to know, and enjoy the wrong stuff.

Pretty much every morbidly obese person I've insight into the dietary preferences of, has a visceral revulsion towards vegetables. And it is only the most determined that diligently tries to overcome that.

[Nobody]

In my case typically 1.29 kg/d veg (0.81 kg fibrous), 2 kg/d fruit. Tells most of the story.

[CKinnard]

In my case typically 1.29 kg/d veg (0.81 kg fibrous), 2 kg/d fruit. Tells most of the story.

I don't understand your numbers. What's that part of the 1.29 that is not 0.81....legumes? grains?

I don't think in weight terms generally, but just did a quick estimate via weight.
I usually do 6-9 cups of fibrous vege, at an average 85g/cup. so 500-750g of fibrous/day.
Fruit is around 3 cups a day at ~150g/cup = 450-500g /day. You are eating 4 times that?!
Starch is variable, but say 500g wet weight

[Nobody]

In my case typically 1.29 kg/d veg (0.81 kg fibrous), 2 kg/d fruit. Tells most of the story.

I don't understand your numbers. What's that part of the 1.29 that is not 0.81....legumes? grains?

Sweet potato.
Grains I would list as grains.
I probably won't eat legumes again until summer is over, since I'm trying to maintain a low WHtR (< 0.42). Beans might add longevity and work for everyone else, but they don't for a leaner me.

I don't think in weight terms generally, but just did a quick estimate via weight.
I usually do 6-9 cups of fibrous vege, at an average 85g/cup. so 500-750g of fibrous/day.
Fruit is around 3 cups a day at ~150g/cup = 450-500g /day. You are eating 4 times that?!
Starch is variable, but say 500g wet weight

So we eat similar amounts of starch and fibrous. I eat more fruit, but probably less grains. For me, 2 serves/d of grains. I could even trim that if I was looking to be lighter. 1 (30g) serve of nuts/seeds per day.

I find that I have to limit my bananas since they can make the weight climb when over 1 kg/d. They are higher in calorie density and protein (for a fruit). Most of my fruit is still bananas, but lately I've been trying to favor more low density fruit.

That's the advantage of tracking food, weight and WHtR. I can see what has changed and then look at yesterday to see why. So I've got a good idea of what works for me and what to avoid/reduce.

After summer I may change again and gravitate back to a higher body fat % before winter. Either that or buy more clothes this time around. Technically, more clothes for winter should be healthier.

[CKinnard]

Here's an energy intake estimator I made back in the noughties.
I've entered 1 unit of most rows to give an indication of Calorie densities.

[Nobody]

Interesting. Thanks.
Below is an approximate typical day for me lately. The left hand column of the grey section shows all the foods in Cal/100g without fibre. I get similar values per unit to you. Everything is entered in grams like Cronometer and results are usually within 100 Cal of Cronometer for total Cal intake when I do both. I usually fill this out during the day when I'm at home, then sometimes transfer the results to Cronometer for comparison and to make sure of what I'm getting nutrition wise.

I think the main problem with my current diet is that the density is a bit too low, so the volume/weight I have to eat is high. Especially if I try to eat it mostly in 2 meals, which is fairly common. But I get results with this low fat, low protein and low Cal density approach. There are many people I could thank for helping me to get to this point. Yourself and RX being among them. So thanks.

[Nobody]

Not a new observation, but more evidence that meat protein causes atherosclerosis in isolation to (the also suspected) animal based saturated fats. The AHA initially presented this evidence and I can't seem to find an original study. So the closest source I can find is the link below.

http://news.heart.org/mostly-meat-high- ... der-women/

Older but similar:
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/protein ... t-disease/
http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/protein

Not really related, but I stumbled across the video below while having a dig around. It shows why so many studies on subjects with western diets is next to useless. It reminds me of a study comparing a "low fat" diet with a Mediterranean diet that was only a few percent different in fat calories.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/when-lo ... high-risk/
It reminds me of the illustration of hitting something solid at 100 km/h compared to 80 km/h. Both are fatal. You need to get below 5 km/h if you want to ensure impact survival.

[RhapsodyX]

Not a new observation, but more evidence that meat protein causes atherosclerosis in isolation to (the also suspected) animal based saturated fats. The AHA initially presented this evidence and I can't seem to find an original study. So the closest source I can find is the link below.

http://news.heart.org/mostly-meat-high- ... der-women/

"An inverse association was found between higher intakes of energy adjusted vegetable protein and HF although this association wasn’t statically significant if the association was adjusted to BMI and diet quality."

[Nobody]

Not a new observation, but more evidence that meat protein causes atherosclerosis in isolation to (the also suspected) animal based saturated fats. The AHA initially presented this evidence and I can't seem to find an original study. So the closest source I can find is the link below.

http://news.heart.org/mostly-meat-high- ... der-women/

"An inverse association was found between higher intakes of energy adjusted vegetable protein and HF although this association wasn’t statically significant if the association was adjusted to BMI and diet quality."

*Facepalm*
Thanks. I should have though of AHA's journal.

Even in the NF protein link I posted above and quoted below says a lot of soy products (or as I've read elsewhere, isolated vegetable protein) can give a similar increase in IGF-1 response to animal protein. So at least not good for cancer growth.

...although consuming 7-18 servings of soy foods a day may result circulating IGF-1 levels comparable to animal protein. To be safe, one one should probably eat no more than 3-5 servings of soy foods a day.

As I've also learnt from you, you can get too much of any type of protein. Whether that be in a single meal, or average loading. I now keep mine down to about 64g/d or 1.1 g/kg bw, or approx 1.2 g/kg for lbw. Sometimes less. I've certainly got leaner since lowering the protein intake. I think it used to be as high as 1.5 g/kg lbw some days.

I can see how omnis can easily get 2+ g/kg lbw since most westerners think a meal without animal products isn't a quality one. I've been eating fruit for a meal and been asked what real food am I going to eat. Like fruit isn't real food.
No surprise then why AU has some serious chronic illness problems.

[CKinnard]

My new challenge for those who think their diet is clean and superior.

Considering westerners are the world's best at arthritis of all sorts, if you think you are eating clean, and not storing muck in your joints and tendons, go on a 20+km walk taking in at least 1000 meters of cumulative altitude on a rough root infested bush track.

I just had a few days up at Binna Burra hiking the brilliant trails.
23km with 1200 odd meters of alt was our biggest day. I was sore, but my 50kg 50 something female friend was much less so....but then she didn't carry the 7kg (mostly water) day pack either. I'd average 3-4km of recreational walking most weeks so my limbs are certainly not conditioned to such a walk.

[Nobody]

My new challenge for those who think their diet is clean and superior.

Considering westerners are the world's best at arthritis of all sorts, if you think you are eating clean, and not storing muck in your joints and tendons, go on a 20+km walk taking in at least 1000 meters of cumulative altitude on a rough root infested bush track.

I know I probably wouldn't go well. I can get sore knees just from doing dead lifts if I don't concentrate on good form and weighting the outside of my feet. I over-pronate and have had medial patella soreness problems since my 20s. Both from cycling and running. My knees are much better than they were, but not likely to be very good on a new and different challenge.

I went to visit my parents and sister today. They haven't seen me since winter and were surprised I'd lost even more weight. I explained it was a shorter term exercise over summer and there was nothing wrong. My sister told me that her husband was now and an omni again after 3 years of being vegan. They went away on an overseas holiday in winter and he decided to take a break from it during his holiday and never got back into it. I didn't see him, but last time I saw him he was quite lean, like me at the time. But now he is drinking again also and has ballooned out. Such are the dangers of jumping off the wagon for a short period. He says he'll try to go vegan again in the new year. I've got my doubts he'll be successful long term. See what happens I suppose. This is why I try to monitor my intake, weight and waist daily. I need to keep my goal front of mind if I want to stay this lean, at this age, for any length of time. It takes more than just the food.

Got my 6 monthly specialist's blood tests done yesterday. Should know the results in about a week when I get drained, which I'll post in the Plant Based thread. Early next year I plan to get some additional blood tests for myself.

[Nobody]

My new challenge for those who think their diet is clean and superior.

I'll add to yesterday's post that just because I responded doesn't mean I think my diet is superior. Mine may be more tuned for weight loss by design. But from what little I know of yours, mine is similar. I've just cut the beans and limit the grains, nuts & seeds. Which works for me.

[CKinnard]

My new challenge for those who think their diet is clean and superior.

I'll add to yesterday's post that just because I responded doesn't mean I think my diet is superior. Mine may be more tuned for weight loss by design. But from what little I know of yours, mine is similar. I've just cut the beans and limit the grains, nuts & seeds. Which works for me.

I wasn't spouting that my diet is superior. I ached enough to know I need to improve.
My gf did very well. She eats similarly to me - very PBWF, smashes the vege and fruit, 100-150g of animal flesh a week, 50g cheese a week, a little butter. no added salt or sugar, does two main meals a day, and snacks for a third (I don't do dairy in general, but occasionally add a salt). She Has been eating this way for at least 3 decades. Her body is functionally very well preserved, though that's also attributable to low bodyweight (50kg).

My point was that we can all avoid self delusion by occasionally stress testing our ageing rate! i.e. vision esp cataracts and glaucoma, hearing, musculoskeletal resilience, aerobic capacity. These are arguably more telling than a battery of blood parameters!
It was an interesting insight that Binna Burra Lodge guests were mostly over 45, and few were able to walk more than 10km in the time they were there. But they all enjoyed the extensive buffet and pre meal drinks!!!

[Nobody]

I wasn't spouting that my diet is superior.

Yes, I think that came across OK. I just wanted to make clear that my response was in a neutral sense. I didn't want anyone to read anything into it. Written text isn't be best form of communication and intent can be lost.

My gf did very well...does two main meals a day, and snacks for a third...[/quote]
I do the same when I have a desire to stay stable in weight. Lose the snacking when wanting to lose more.

She Has been eating this way for at least 3 decades.

That's highlights my regret. Not knowing about and doing this sooner. Besides myself, I blame this money before people system we live in. I've only realized over the past few years just how bad it is on so many levels.

My point was that we can all avoid self delusion by occasionally stress testing our ageing rate!
i.e. vision esp cataracts and glaucoma...

Never had good vision from birth. Surprisingly isn't getting too much worse in the last 2+ years since I had my last set of glasses.

...hearing,

Poor. Tested OK in one ear, but the other is shot because of Meniere's disease.

...musculoskeletal resilience

Testing it again this afternoon maybe. Not too bad considering my weight, age and disposition toward slow-twitch. Working on it.

...aerobic capacity.

Tested again this morning. OK for my weight and age compared to the general populace.

These are arguably more telling than a battery of blood parameters!

Likely, but as you know, the two reasons I get a lot of blood tests is because I'm being treated by a specialist for hemochromatosis and to keep on top of deficiencies or problems of any kind.
As you know, being different means everyone has you under the magnifying glass. It doesn't matter if their diets are a heap of rubbish, deficient in many things and harming them. It only matters that they can find something, anything wrong with mine to justify their eating habits. So I need to be on top of everything, both short and long term. That's why I'm going to look into things like omega-3 index, vitamin D, HCY, etc. When they can see I'm across everything they can think of, I shouldn't hear too much more about it.

[CKinnard]

yep, get your blood tests too, but take on board functional assessment.
function is very downstream, and therefore offers broader insight into multiple systems and their interaction.
As I get older, the wisdom of the Blue Zone observational studies becomes more apparent i.e. who is living longer, and staying functional!

I also think most in Western society have no inkling of how much they are compromising their health with poor lifestyle choices, because they have the indulgence of leading slothful lifestyles. It is only when a stress event occurs that reality smacks them in the face.....and then it is off to the doctor for a red pill.....because DO NOT tell me to give up my bacon and eggs! It reminds me of the time I saw a 30 something yo guy pull over to the side of the road in his late model car. He waited there for 50 minutes (i was at a nearby cafe after finishing a ride) for the racq to arrive.....and change his tire. I couldn't believe someone that young didn't know how to or didn't want to change a tire. He could have saved himself 30 minutes if he did it himself. But then, maybe he had some physical issue that wasn't apparent!!!!

[Nobody]

yep, get your blood tests too, but take on board functional assessment.
function is very downstream, and therefore offers broader insight into multiple systems and their interaction.
As I get older, the wisdom of the Blue Zone observational studies becomes more apparent i.e. who is living longer, and staying functional!

Reminds me of Jamie Oliver's Super Foods episode about Sardinia.


Yes, very interested in functioning longer as that's the primary reason I took up cycling again and then later changed my diet. I need to be able to keep supporting my family as I'm the only wage earner. The Meniere's disease initially gave me a scare at 39 yo. Now that I've also got hemochromatosis and a strong possible genetic predisposition to both strokes and leukemia, it keeps me pushing on.

I also think most in Western society have no inkling of how much they are compromising their health with poor lifestyle choices, because they have the indulgence of leading slothful lifestyles. It is only when a stress event occurs that reality smacks them in the face.....and then it is off to the doctor for a red pill.....because DO NOT tell me to give up my bacon and eggs!

Not surprising about doctors. It's difficult for them to say to anyone to give up anything dietary, since it's likely that they haven't given up any of it themselves.

I agree about the offence. People take diet so personally and therefore get so offended that the doctor's working life would become very unpleasant. Yet the life span difference can be significant and more importantly so can the health span for those genetically long lived enough.

The government should be pushing the doctors to hand out the advice IMO. That should make the doctors' jobs easier. That way doctors could just be towing the line, rather than offending by showing initiative and personal concern.

[Baalzamon]

Nobody would blood clots be on your genetic side as well possibly? One of my mates has haemochromatosis, got pneumonia and was laid up in his bed for 2 weeks. Next thing he is off to hospital due to blood clots forming in his legs. Found out a bit later that he is predisposed to those as well

I'm suspecting I've got a sensitivity to either tomatoes or onions or both. Not immediately but overnight they will raise my fasted blood glucose.

[Nobody]

Nobody would blood clots be on your genetic side as well possibly?

No. Other than the things I've listed and some back issues, I don't have anything else. I thought my list of gene related problems was long enough as it is.

I'm suspecting I've got a sensitivity to either tomatoes or onions or both. Not immediately but overnight they will raise my fasted blood glucose.

Fruit sensitivity/allergy is common. I didn't realize I had some until my vitamin D got low. Tomatoes were one for me too. But I seem to be mostly over it now. Unfortunately both tomatoes and onions are a bit of a staple for many loved dishes.

[Baalzamon]

I stumbled upon it when I changed my breakfast from Cavemanketo chilli to a keto friendly granola with coconut yogurt. Back in April my blood sugar one week rose from under 4.4 to ranging from 4.4 to 5.2 No diet change had occurred.

Changing to Granola Girls paleo granola with coyo vanilla for 3 days saw my blood sugar return to 4.4 then back under 4.4. Soon as I brought that Cavemanketo chilli back into my diet I got an instant rise in my fasted blood glucose.

I've still got a few of those in the freezer, and I think they are headed for the bin.

I've been quite on the boards the past 2 weeks due to volunteering on the BV great ride and with their "SAD" diet saw me booted out of ketosis and now I'm having fun getting back into it.

[RhapsodyX]

New Tel Aviv University research suggests that periods of fasting or starvation may significantly shorten the lifespans of both children and their male descendants.
The research paper.