A really interesting speech on obesity

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sogood
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:25 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:I liked how the author used actual scientific research to support his arguments instead of just making up stories. Also, he is not fat :wink:
In his biography he described himself as,
I conduct research on obesity and the regulation of body fat by the brain at the University of Washington. In my spare time, I read, write, and speak about obesity, metabolism, nutrition, and health...
So what exactly is his qualification on the subject? Further, even with well titled authors, extraordinary claims need to be referenced by peers and other associated data. Not all solitary scientific articles are true and it's easy to mis-inform using faulty references.
Last edited by sogood on Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:29 pm

durianrider wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
durianrider wrote:As for the Okinawins. They ate most of their calories from carbohydrates with LESS than 1% of their calories coming from fish, pork or lard LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BopvnXsqV0k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

* Please stick with scientific evidence vs making up stories so no more false nutritional dogma is spread around. 8)
If you say so. The research (i.e. scientific evidence) suggests that 85% of calories came from carbohydratesw with the rest from protein, fat and saturated fat. So sure where you got your 1% from. LOL!
I guess this is why Im a professional and you aint. ;)
Professional what? FWIW I am a professional. :roll:
durianrider wrote:1% of calories coming from animal products. Remember, plants DO contain fat and protein. So when you say that you can only get fat and protein from animal products you highlight your lack of basic human nutritional understanding Causal Cyclist.
That's hilarious considering I said nothing of the sort. As a vegetarian, I am well aware of fats and proteins from plant sources.
durianrider wrote:So Im still correct. 1% approx of the Okinawins calories comes from animal products. Most plant foods are between 5-10% of calories coming from protein and fats hence why the Okinawins in their ancient traditional near vegan diet ate the healthy 85/10/5 ratios. Approx 85% of calories coming from carbs, 10% of cals from fat, 5% from protein and around 1% coming from animal products.
Image
That's and interesting chart. I note their intake is sugars in terms of calories is also less than 1%. If you are going to be single minded about it, this "proves" my point that sugar makes you fat. It's really interesting that supposedly fruit made up less than 1% of calories. I doubt that is true at all. Where did you get this data from? It looks really wonky to me.
durianrider wrote:So much for the claims that 'Okinawins LIVED on lard and pork and were as lean as you Durianrider!'. :wink:
I never said that either. I didn't say the 'Okinawins LIVED on lard and pork' or that they are as 'lean as you Durianrider'. Now you are just making stuff up. :wink:
durianrider wrote:So basically if you want single digit body fat then make sure your diet has single digit % of calories coming from fat. When the diet is focused on WHOLE carbohydrate sources like fruits, veg, grains, tubers then AUTOMATICALLY you will get enough essential amino acids and fatty acids. The reason I have Tour De France body fat levels is due to my high carb low fat low protein intake over the last 12 years.
Awww. What happened to your precious white flour and white sugar? :wink:

You will note on the table above that the total calories is 1785 per day. That's pretty low. According to researchers, "approximately 10.9% fewer calories than would normally be recommended for maintenance of body weight, according to the Harris–Benedict equation". Perhaps the Okinawan were traditionally lean because they didn't eat much and healthy because they ate nutritious food? Sounds crazy I know but it's possible isn't it?

http://okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr_diet_2 ... 4_434s.pdf
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Wakatuki » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:33 pm

durianrider wrote: 100% protein and fat diet eh? Like Dr Atkins diet? He died with heart disease and was 258lb of obesity. http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The website title you send us to seems to be rather err one sided with a title like that. Similar to http://www.mymatesaysfordsarerubbishbyholden.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; say if you were looking at a new FPV and not an SS! :P

But Atkins Wiki link would seem a little more neutral, and to be honest at 72, obese, who cares.. Enjoy life. Just like the fat royals did, not just eating meat, that was easy to find, but fruit and wines were not in abundance unless you were a king, AKA sugar, "carbs" and if I were to be king and my life expectancy, healthy or not is 40, if your lucky, or maybe this new disease floating around would get you next week. Been wondering what that weeping sore was..

Now, I don't preach how meat is murder, lovely juicy tender murder. So please refrain from telling me how I'm doing so bad on my chosen path. There were not many fatties in the war years, or 70's or 80's only with the new corn starch revolution did this crisis all begin. Plenty of docos out there.

Now back to me; ran my first 5k complete this morning no stopping, after getting off my behind in Aug2012 after being at rest 20+ years. I only began running 6 weeks ago.
You want to lose weight, EVERYONE strengthen your mind, no matter what food path you take.
Durianrider I am happy to add some of your foods into my regime, but I will not drop animal products, sorry.

Also you are aware that before the global market, fruit, the sweet fruit, would only fall from the tree at one time of year, Summer, get fattened on that and wait for the winter as few fruit and veggies then, have to go for.... Animal Protiens. It's always easy to spot Bambi when the trees have shed the leaves!
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:36 pm

sogood wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:I liked how the author used actual scientific research to support his arguments instead of just making up stories. Also, he is not fat :wink:
In his biography he described himself as,
I conduct research on obesity and the regulation of body fat by the brain at the University of Washington. In my spare time, I read, write, and speak about obesity, metabolism, nutrition, and health...
So what exactly is his qualification on the subject? Further, even with well titled authors, extraordinary claims need to be referenced by peers and other associated data.
I didn't say that he was qualified to speak on the subject. But it turns out that he just might be...

UPDATE: Stephan Guyenet is a neurobiologist who studies the neurobiology of body fat regulation. http://boingboing.net/2011/08/13/stepha ... ories.html

Anyway, my point was that he backs up his arguments with references to published research, unlike some of the people around here. For example:
claim "Diets high in sugar and fat together tend to be the most fattening of all"
studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7752914, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21418711

I don't care who he is or what he says. What I like about his style of writing is that I can read the studies for myself and make my own judgment about whether they support his claims or not. In any case, reading the source articles can be quite informative.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:56 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:I didn't say that he was qualified to speak on the subject. But it turns out that he just might be...
Sorry, misunderstanding. I wasn't disagreeing with you or have anything specific against the individual. I was but to simply flag that even with people who reference data and sounding scientific, it can still mislead. It's so easy to lead up a highly specific academic argument with specific scientific articles that the big picture gets lost.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:13 pm

sogood wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:I didn't say that he was qualified to speak on the subject. But it turns out that he just might be...
Sorry, misunderstanding. I wasn't disagreeing with you or have anything specific against the individual. I was but to simply flag that even with people who reference data and sounding scientific, it can still mislead. It's so easy to lead up a highly specific academic argument with specific scientific articles that the big picture gets lost.
Yes, that is true. It's hard to know who to trust these days. Everyone seems to be pushing an agenda and even when studies are referenced, they don't always support authors conclusions. I have seen that before. In any case, it would pay not to believe everything you read on the internet or you could wind up like this girl: The Terrible Tragedy of the Healthy Eater

Hilarious!
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:31 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Yes, that is true. It's hard to know who to trust these days. Everyone seems to be pushing an agenda and even when studies are referenced, they don't always support authors conclusions. I have seen that before.
Isn't the Internet wonderful! :)

I think that common sense is important here. If a story is too fantastic, then it's probably not worth pursuing. The rest will come down to outcome. And always remember human's evolutionary origin.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby dynamictiger » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:51 pm

sogood wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Yes, that is true. It's hard to know who to trust these days. Everyone seems to be pushing an agenda and even when studies are referenced, they don't always support authors conclusions. I have seen that before.
Isn't the Internet wonderful! :)

I think that common sense is important here. If a story is too fantastic, then it's probably not worth pursuing. The rest will come down to outcome. And always remember human's evolutionary origin.
What is going to happen when everyone believes the internet? What will this lead too?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:53 pm

dynamictiger wrote:What is going to happen when everyone believes the internet? What will this lead too?
Bananas! :mrgreen:
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby dynamictiger » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:05 pm

sogood wrote:
dynamictiger wrote:What is going to happen when everyone believes the internet? What will this lead too?
Bananas! :mrgreen:
I work in a n industry where I already see the impact of this. When I joined the industry in 1986 one of my first jobs was removing these 'devices' that did not work. They completely dissappeared from the market until...wait for it...2008/2009 suddenly there was this new device and...........

IMHO the internet has been responsible for this device and other similar products already proven and known not to work to secure a 'following' on the internet who will tell you they are the best since the wheel, the roman empire, the greek empire or whatever

As has been mentioned there is 'scientific' evidence supporting a particular point of view however often you scratch the science to find there is a large portion anecdotal and hardly any factual base. As has been said in this post a study of one is not a study.

What works for one may or may not work for another. For example since I could talk I have drunk a minimum of 3 litres of Milk a day. I am sure a lot of folks here would tell me this would make me very overwieght, subject to heart disease and so on and could back this up with a lot of 'scientific' say so. However for me and my body for whatever reason I need this product. I am not convinced it does me any good, or any harm however without it I am like a bald samson. Anyway I rave off topic here.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:29 pm

I'm reading a really interesting article called Energy balance and its components: implications for body weight regulation. http://asn-cdn-remembers.s3.amazonaws.c ... 6c9728.pdf

Well worth a read.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Toolish » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:02 pm

Wakatuki wrote:
durianrider wrote: 100% protein and fat diet eh? Like Dr Atkins diet? He died with heart disease and was 258lb of obesity. http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The website title you send us to seems to be rather err one sided with a title like that. Similar to http://www.mymatesaysfordsarerubbishbyholden.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; say if you were looking at a new FPV and not an SS! :P
Reading more, it seems he was 195 when he went to hospital in a coma after a fall and bloated up while in the coma....not sure how that happens but according to snopes it was in the medical records... again, what do you trust on the net!

As for the heart disease, sample size of one, perhaps that was genetic? I guess we should all stop running too as that causes a heart attack (re: Jim Fixx).

There has to be more to weight gain and obesity than diet, there is a genetic component for sure. I have seen too many people who eat absolute crap, sugar, fat, and everything on everyone's do not eat list, yet are still reasonably lean. If genetics can affect overall obesity likelyhood then it seems possible that the mechanism for obesity could also vary.

Durain, what do you say about the Massai tribesman, lean, healthy, traditional diet completely vegetable free in some cases?

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:38 pm

Toolish wrote:There has to be more to weight gain and obesity than diet, there is a genetic component for sure. I have seen too many people who eat absolute crap, sugar, fat, and everything on everyone's do not eat list, yet are still reasonably lean. If genetics can affect overall obesity likelyhood then it seems possible that the mechanism for obesity could also vary.
Sure genetics plays a role in weight gain and weight loss. In the article I linked to above there was a study where researchers put a bunch of people on an exercise plan. Some lost a lot of weight, some lost some weight and some gained weight. The different responses are genetic I guess. In terms of what causes weight gain in the first place, this is something I have been interested in for most of my life having been overweight for most of my life including a period where I was obese for a while.

Obviously, weight gain is caused by an energy imbalance (energy in>energy out) however a simple formula does not explain why energy in is greater than energy expended. For all my of life I was a chronic overeater. This was partly a bad habit and partly because I ate really fast. I never put on weight really fast, it just crept on over time with my biggest "record" being nearly 40kg. I have also been through periods where I felt hungry all the time despite eating 9 or 10 or more times a day. I was eating junk food!

Anyway, it appears that growth hormone might be important in regulating body weight and certainly, growth hormone may vary from person to person depending on genetics. In an interesting note, researchers discovered that overeating markedly suppressed growth hormone secretion. http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/96/3/824.long

It is interesting that Okinawans traditionally ate to about 80% full and were lean. The people who I know who are fat are chronic overeaters. Previously, I always thought that they got fat simply because of consuming excess calories but it might be more complex than that.

I guess the point is that for those of us who are prone to weight gain, it is more important that we not overeat. I would never use genetics as an excuse for being fat.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:49 pm

Something interesting I find is that in 'eating for health' circles, particular to groups pushing certain ideologies clearly articulate a dichotomy between different types of fats: saturated fats, polyunsaturated fats and monounsaturated fats. In terms of refined fats, saturated fats and monounsaturated fats are "good" (except for seed oils) and refined polyunsaturated fats are "bad". However, I don't see the same dichotomy between different types of carbohydrates, even though there are clear distinctions between different types. For example, you could talk about nutrient density, glycaemic index, fibre, simple/complex, starchy/non-starchy, refined/whole etc and also plant vs non-plant.

However, in low carb circles, a carb is a carb, they are all "bad" and should be avoided. This is based on the carbohydrate theory of obesity (that carbs make us fat). I have always had a problem with this, knowing that the Okinawans, Kitavans, Burusho of Hunza, Hawaiians and Pima Indians traditional diets are high in complex carbohydrates. This guy has a go at debunking the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity but doesn't spend much time on the different qualities of the different types of carbs.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com.a ... esity.html
I think it's likely that refined carbohydrate and sugar can contribute to obesity, but by what mechanism? Insulin is not a compelling explanation. Food reward/palatability is an alternative possibility that fits the evidence better. Another plausible hypothesis is reduced fiber and micronutrient density.
Hardly compelling. Good article though.

I don't know about the other traditional diets but the Okinawan is claimed to be low glycaemic load. Perhaps that is a place to start. Looking at the glycaemic loads of various foods, I would recommend eating most of the low glycaemic load foods, some of the medium glycaemic load foods and as little of the high glycaemic load foods as possible.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso ... emic-load/

The best explanation of the qualities of different carbs I have seen is here: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/article17.aspx and here: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/foodpyramid.aspx
Nutritional science in the last twenty years has demonstrated that colorful plant foods contain a huge assortment of protective compounds, most of which still remain unnamed. Only by eating an assortment of nutrient-rich natural foods can we access these protective compounds and prevent the common diseases that afflict Americans.
If we go low carb, we lose these benefits.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:15 pm

durianrider wrote:
# Royalty ate till they vomited? Then that means they would be skinny as when you vomit your meals up then you don't get all the calories from them do you? What did society live in ye olde times? Wheat, potatoes, fruits aka CARBOHYDRATE foods. Carbohydrate foods were cheaper back then and still are today. Poor people are thin cos they live on rice, corn, barley etc.
Look into bulimia before you make comments like this. In short it doesnt work.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:24 pm

durianrider wrote:
100% protein and fat diet eh? Like Dr Atkins diet? He died with heart disease and was 258lb of obesity. http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How come the nations that live on high carb low fat low protein are the slimmest on earth? Then when they move to the west and load up on the meat and dairy they blow out? How come western prisoners in Asian Jails lose weight when fed the traditional Asian meals based on majority of calories from carbs? They aint starving as the UN has strict starvation human rights protocol for all prisons to follow. I visited the Bangkok Hilton once with a mate during open hours and talked with some western prisoners doing life for drug smuggling. Both said they had lost a 'CR*P LOAD!' of weight lol! Both admitted to not being starved either.

Sorry but the 'carbs make you fat theory' is only a myth low carb authors use to sell product to noobs that want to hear good things about their bad habits...

As for blood sugar variations anyone serious about avoiding diabetes should read Dr Barnards book on reversing and preventing type 2 diabetes. http://pcrm.org/shop/byNealBarnard/dr-b ... g-diabetes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Barry Sears is overweight himself. So much for the 'balanced 40/20/20' approach. http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_protein_diets.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
40/20/20 doesnt even make 100 so try again. Having not been bothered to read the articles because you scour for one off examples all the time that are so bias its not even worth reading I will make these comments. Many knowledgeable people to not practice what they preach. It doesnt mean they dont know what they are talking about.

I never said carbs make you fat but they very well can. Looks at the way the leading dieticians around the world are going, or you can continue to ignore quality research to pull out your crap.

Balanced diets are always the way to go. FYI you want a N=1 experiment (which you seem to love) my girlfriend is a vegetarian and has a number of health problems due to the way she eats (admittedly she isnt fat but she does exercise lots and eats pretty clean). Why you may ask? because as most people are with their diets she is lazy with hers and doesnt eat enough variety so ends up with vitamin and mineral deficiencies. But lets ignore the more holistic health and focus on one small part and pick out some stupid cases to prove your point.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:29 pm

sogood wrote:
vander wrote:
sogood wrote: Irrelevant. Obesity kills, weaklings don't.
Never worked in a hospital have you.
You can't be further from the truth! LOL
Well then you should know better, weaklings cause serious problems and yes it does kill. I do accept you are probably talking about a different population then what I am, but you need to be careful making sweeping statements like this.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:33 pm

dynamictiger wrote:What works for one may or may not work for another. For example since I could talk I have drunk a minimum of 3 litres of Milk a day. I am sure a lot of folks here would tell me this would make me very overwieght, subject to heart disease and so on and could back this up with a lot of 'scientific' say so. However for me and my body for whatever reason I need this product. I am not convinced it does me any good, or any harm however without it I am like a bald samson. Anyway I rave off topic here.
Just don't stop drinking as you'll develop milk withdraw! Seriously, they talk about it. :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Wakatuki » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:05 pm

dynamictiger wrote:For example since I could talk I have drunk a minimum of 3 litres of Milk a day.
:shock:
My dad worked in the milk industry and so did I. An amazing fact about milk is the amount of marketing that goes into it.
For example:
Sheeps milk is for?
Goats milk is for?
Cats milk is for?
Dogs milk is for?
Human milk is for?
Cows milk is for ...... People!

I prefer cream!

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:23 pm

vander wrote:Well then you should know better, weaklings cause serious problems and yes it does kill. I do accept you are probably talking about a different population then what I am, but you need to be careful making sweeping statements like this.
Given that we are talking in the social/general context, what you are referencing is out of context and should be in a separate thread. In any case, the relative proportions of each is incomparable and my earlier message stands.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:26 pm

... and why is hospital food so... generally crap?

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:05 pm

twizzle wrote:... and why is hospital food so... generally crap?

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:07 pm

twizzle wrote:... and why is hospital food so... generally crap?
Because there's no diner feedback and Yelp star rating wasn't a criteria in the choice of hospital. :roll:
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:44 am

I see a mountain of hubris here.

Yes, some fat or less healthy people find excuses and are the master of their own misfortune. But there are MILLIONS out there and they are NOT all weak willed and inferior beings undeserving of the pure and beautiful temples that we all think we have earned by the sheer weight of some innate superiority. That does NOT explain why things are so different today as it was in our parent s and grandparents day. Blaming the internet and TV and lack of work ethic does not cut it.

Well guys, it's luck. It is luck because no-one can explain WHY these noble attributes that people are claiming are with them and not with others. When we can explain why it is then it ceases to be luck. It instead has an inevitability.

These doctors that some here are dismissing are the guys that will unravel and explain that "luck". Just as they are doing a better and better and better job of explaining the metabolics and dietary aspects of what is a fairly recent phenomonon.

And in the vain hope of putting a little doubt into the minds of all the self-congratulatory self-made, high will powered healthy egos out there (fat chance methinks) - in my many years of sport and activity a great many of my previously healthy ripped lean self-righteous strong willed training partners and team mates are just as fat now as the ones that some of them may have scorned and blamed. And that is just as likely to pass for many of us here too.

When many of you guys are fifty or sixty or seventy and have fallen behind then it will not necessarily be because you are weaker or less deserving than me or someone else here. But if you too easily dismiss others out there as weaker and less deserving then there will be some ironic justice in your misfortune.

Now my turn to indulge in some self-righteousness and vanity - I am constantly battered with compliments on my state of health. You must have amazing core", "You must eat really healthy'" (I don't), "You are ripped", "You must be the fittest guy I know", "I hope I am like you when I am half your age" ad nauseum.

Yes it is all very flattering and I don't deny that it panders to my vanity. And I do like to be the guy that others look to to lift that heavy object onto the top shelf. But while I (too often :oops: )bask in the compliments, I am not so arrogant as to believe that all those millions and millions less physically capable are so because I am better than them and they are weaker than me. The continued good health of anyone is dependent on a great many fragile circumstances. Serendipity. Those times when I have slipped a little or a lot remind me of that. A niggle here, an accident there, a family crisis of some sort...


End of angry rant. Peace on earth. :)
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ZepinAtor » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:30 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote: Now my turn to indulge in some self-righteousness and vanity - I am constantly battered with compliments on my state of health.

Peace on earth :)
Well put Collin & have to agree entirely :)

Same here on the compliments front, but I find the generally appalling state of other peoples ill-health makes "us athletic" types stand out a little more than we should.

I don't find the compliments anywhere near as often at sporting events as ratio of lean fit people is 10 fold compared to the average working/family environment.

Durianrider....loving the passion as always. Not always accurate info on your behalf, but better to put it out there to the punters than hold back IMO. I follow the same diet ( Vegan,high carb, low protein compared to the "norm" :roll: ) & yes have the exact same results. Low body fat/lean appearance heaps of energy & strength. Not exactly sure if what's on the inside is as it seems on the outside though ?, but I'm hopeful & positive all the same.
Gas propulsion.......it's natural don't fight it.

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