Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

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Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby durianrider » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:03 pm

Just so no other threads get hijacked. Lets keep this sort of nutritional debate here.

So what do you think?

Dr Atkins (who had multiple heart attacks and died at 258lbs) said:

Steamed rice and fruit = obesity!
Fatty diets = rail thin!

All the leading cardiologists say a high carb low fat diet works best for waistline and heart health.
Big name pro athletes eat high carb low fat diets when wanting to stay at race weight.
Fad low carb diet diet authors claim that 'peak performance is when you are in ketosis!'.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby sogood » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:50 pm

Turn the question around, does one need vegan diet to lose weight? The answer is, NO!

End of debate. :mrgreen:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Marty Moose » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:19 pm

sogood wrote:Turn the question around, does one need vegan diet to lose weight? The answer is, NO!

End of debate. :mrgreen:

Does one need a high protein diet to loose weight? The answer is NO!

I think there is bad in extremes I work with one vegan and a Vego both are often sick and always cold in winter particularly the vegan. I also work with a heap of fat people who go on fad high protein diets they loose weight then put it back on again in all the cases I've seen.

To loose weight eat a balanced diet eat less calories than you need pretty simple really no pain no gain no quick fixes.

Biggest issue I see is people don't know what they are consuming once they are off the diet, they need to retrain their eating habits so its not a diet but a way of life.

I know there are people with digestive issues on here they are the exception not the norm. I'm gluten free do also fit in that boat, go the low gi carbs for me.

Vegan smeagan the ones I know are animal liberation types trying to justify their eating habits for the poor animals. Their choice so long as they don't try to push it down my neck like a jehova knocking on the door, nice people but keep it to yourselves please :)

Forgot to mention the vegan is not fat but frail and sickly the vego's have health issues but not fat. The vego runs the vegan does no exercise.

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:16 pm

How about: "Is a sensible balanced eating plan coupled with the odd treat and a reasonable amount of aerobic and anaerobic exercise good for the body AND soul?"
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby sogood » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:57 pm

Mulger bill wrote:How about: "Is a sensible balanced eating plan coupled with the odd treat and a reasonable amount of aerobic and anaerobic exercise good for the body AND soul?"

I assume the treat is 1 banana?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:23 pm

Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Is this the right question? Perhaps the question should be: "Is dieting for weight loss good?"

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa1105816

This study looked at 50 overweight or obese patients without diabetes in a 10-week weight-loss program for which a very-low-energy diet was prescribed.


One year after initial weight reduction, levels of the circulating mediators of appetite that encourage weight regain after diet-induced weight loss do not revert to the levels recorded before weight loss. Long-term strategies to counteract this change may be needed to prevent obesity relapse


Basically, 12 months after crash dieting, these patients had metabolisms and circulating hormones that made the patients hungry. Perhaps the issue is a very-low-energy diet and not weight loss. More research is needed.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:25 am

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby bychosis » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:56 am

Thread title...Answer: Yes, because no one can eat a lot of that type of food!
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:39 am

You'll lose weight as long as you do negative energy balance, despite whatever it is you stick in your gob. Doesn't mean it's good for you.
A better question to ask- Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss, gain, and maintenance; athletic performance; longevity; reversing the morbidity of rubbish diets; and psychoemotional stability?

Could every human tolerate a vegan diet? probably not, because their parents didn't feed them a healthy diet when younger, when some hard wiring and metabolic pathways are kindled for food preference....and then there's a % who have deranged endocrine function that can start before they are born, due to their parents' eating preferences.

Until I worked in the field I had no idea how ubiquitous non-unprocessed vegetable eating is in Australia. It was inconceivable to someone from my generation and upbringing. Obviously there's a lot of parenting by people who are more ignorant about healthy eating than Neanderthals.

Anyway, I appreciate the gang thinks I don't know what I am talking about, so read Harvard School of Public Health's word instead.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/pyramid/
"2. Go with plants. Eating a plant-based diet is healthiest. Make half your plate vegetables and fruits. Cook with healthy plant oils, like olive and canola oil. Get most or all of your protein from beans, nuts and seeds, or tofu."

Yeah I note their use of processed plant oil, but that doesn't necessarily mean they recommend a high fat diet.

The haters are always raising that many vegans and vegos are unhealthy. It's been shown over and over in the literature that lots of sick people experiment with diet to get better. And many unwell people choose a vego diet, and don't plan it well. This is very common for teens, especially when their parents have no idea what a balanced diet is in the first place.

I think the problem is there's too many people who believe diet is the solution to most of mankind's health issues. Certainly has its role, but things like good family, sleep, friendships, meaning of life, education, all have their role. Take Oscar Pistorious for instance. Obviously a fit low fat supremely athletic guy, but.......
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:20 am

The haters are always raising that many vegans and vegos are unhealthy. It's been shown over and over in the literature that lots of sick people experiment with diet to get better. And many unwell people choose a vego diet, and don't plan it well. This is very common for teens, especially when their parents have no idea what a balanced diet is in the first place.

I think the problem is there's too many people who believe diet is the solution to most of mankind's health issues. Certainly has its role, but things like good family, sleep, friendships, meaning of life, education, all have their role. Take Oscar Pistorious for instance. Obviously a fit low fat supremely athletic guy, but.......

+1.

My experience of vegan diets covers 5 people. Of those, 2 are healthy, the others had issues with health that were in my view attributable to their diets and iron deficiency in particular and one of whom is my daughter. My daughter's health returned to normal when she resumed eating meat and a more balanced diet.

Veganism can be successful, but in my view requires a discipline and attention to detail due to being counter-cultural in our Western system that not many follow through. The consensus of the research results appears to be that vegetable protein and iron sources are more difficult to digest, less bio-available, and those sources are generally not as readily available through normal retail channels. Simpoly dropping meat will leave your diet deficient.

One of the two that is healthy has the attention to detail and discipline, and he is lean and fit. The other is female and doesn't appear to make any great effort apart from not eating meat or fish.

When I have trialled non-animal protein supplements (eg soy-based protein protein poweder) myself, I found it noticeably less effective than whey protein, which was in turn noticeably less effective than eating the same protein intake of lean beef or chicken.

YMMV.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:49 am

durianrider wrote:Big name pro athletes eat high carb low fat diets when wanting to stay at race weight.

I'm guessing 50%+ of their energy expenditure is probably from the exercise, so that will skew the numbers - as they will, obviously, be rebuilding glycogen stores using carbs.
durianrider wrote:Fad low carb diet diet authors claim that 'peak performance is when you are in ketosis!'.

References?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:27 pm

Vegans are the cyclists of the diet world.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby durianrider » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:45 pm

Marty Moose wrote:
sogood wrote:Turn the question around, does one need vegan diet to lose weight? The answer is, NO!

End of debate. :mrgreen:

Does one need a high protein diet to loose weight? The answer is NO!

I think there is bad in extremes I work with one vegan and a Vego both are often sick and always cold in winter particularly the vegan. I also work with a heap of fat people who go on fad high protein diets they loose weight then put it back on again in all the cases I've seen.

To loose weight eat a balanced diet eat less calories than you need pretty simple really no pain no gain no quick fixes.

Biggest issue I see is people don't know what they are consuming once they are off the diet, they need to retrain their eating habits so its not a diet but a way of life.

I know there are people with digestive issues on here they are the exception not the norm. I'm gluten free do also fit in that boat, go the low gi carbs for me.

Vegan smeagan the ones I know are animal liberation types trying to justify their eating habits for the poor animals. Their choice so long as they don't try to push it down my neck like a jehova knocking on the door, nice people but keep it to yourselves please :)

Forgot to mention the vegan is not fat but frail and sickly the vego's have health issues but not fat. The vego runs the vegan does no exercise.

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I don't care what diet you eat, if you don't do some form of regular physical activity YOU AINT GONNA BE VERY HEALTHY. Its LIFESTYLE. Diet, sleep, stress management, sport, life purpose etc.

Yeah if you just eat a healthy high carb low fat vegan diet you will get slim over time. But if you don't pump your blood you won't be healthy. Body is designed to move. Not excessively but frequently.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Marty Moose » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:52 pm

durianrider wrote:
Marty Moose wrote:
sogood wrote:Turn the question around, does one need vegan diet to lose weight? The answer is, NO!

End of debate. :mrgreen:

Does one need a high protein diet to loose weight? The answer is NO!

I think there is bad in extremes I work with one vegan and a Vego both are often sick and always cold in winter particularly the vegan. I also work with a heap of fat people who go on fad high protein diets they loose weight then put it back on again in all the cases I've seen.

To loose weight eat a balanced diet eat less calories than you need pretty simple really no pain no gain no quick fixes.

Biggest issue I see is people don't know what they are consuming once they are off the diet, they need to retrain their eating habits so its not a diet but a way of life.

I know there are people with digestive issues on here they are the exception not the norm. I'm gluten free do also fit in that boat, go the low gi carbs for me.

Vegan smeagan the ones I know are animal liberation types trying to justify their eating habits for the poor animals. Their choice so long as they don't try to push it down my neck like a jehova knocking on the door, nice people but keep it to yourselves please :)

Forgot to mention the vegan is not fat but frail and sickly the vego's have health issues but not fat. The vego runs the vegan does no exercise.

MM

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I don't care what diet you eat, if you don't do some form of regular physical activity YOU AINT GONNA BE VERY HEALTHY. Its LIFESTYLE. Diet, sleep, stress management, sport, life purpose etc.

Yeah if you just eat a healthy high carb low fat vegan diet you will get slim over time. But if you don't pump your blood you won't be healthy. Body is designed to move. Not excessively but frequently.

No arguments from me 100% spot on. If you eat a diet higher in calories than you need you will get fatter vegan or no vegan.Calories in vs calories out. Next question is what is a healthy calorie :)

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:57 pm

Marty Moose wrote:No arguments from me 100% spot on. If you eat a diet higher in calories than you need you will get fatter vegan or no vegan.Calories in vs calories out. Next question is what is a healthy calorie :)


Actually, science says otherwise. Can't be arsed finding the study, but the change in weight doesn't match the calories as the metabolic rate changes to use the fuel... but some does go to fat. Same when cutting calories - metabolic rate slows significantly, and you can still end up eating more than you need. It's certainly not as simple as "calories in".
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:10 pm

Metabolising foods/drinks/ "understanding" physiology and food groups will help control diet and weight.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Marty Moose » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:19 pm

twizzle wrote:
Marty Moose wrote:No arguments from me 100% spot on. If you eat a diet higher in calories than you need you will get fatter vegan or no vegan.Calories in vs calories out. Next question is what is a healthy calorie :)


Actually, science says otherwise. Can't be arsed finding the study, but the change in weight doesn't match the calories as the metabolic rate changes to use the fuel... but some does go to fat. Same when cutting calories - metabolic rate slows significantly, and you can still end up eating more than you need. It's certainly not as simple as "calories in".

Extremes Twiz I'm not taking about starving yourself to effect the metabolism that's crazy. Around 1000 to 1200 cals positive for a woman and 1200 to 1800 for a man. Do that close to the food pyramid you will loose weight at a healthy rate not messing up your metabolism.

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Howzat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:19 pm

twizzle wrote:It's certainly not as simple as "calories in".

Was for me. The single most effective thing was counting calories. You quickly figure out that veggies and fruits are not very energy dense, so you can eat to your satisfaction without the same calorie intake. But on the bacon, beer, and mars bars diet, you never feel full.

Your metabolic rate slowing basically means you laze around more. But if you're active, say with cycling, it's easy to get the exercise in to counteract the inclination stay on the couch.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:05 pm

Marty Moose wrote:
twizzle wrote:
Marty Moose wrote:No arguments from me 100% spot on. If you eat a diet higher in calories than you need you will get fatter vegan or no vegan.Calories in vs calories out. Next question is what is a healthy calorie :)


Actually, science says otherwise. Can't be arsed finding the study, but the change in weight doesn't match the calories as the metabolic rate changes to use the fuel... but some does go to fat. Same when cutting calories - metabolic rate slows significantly, and you can still end up eating more than you need. It's certainly not as simple as "calories in".

Extremes Twiz I'm not taking about starving yourself to effect the metabolism that's crazy. Around 1000 to 1200 cals positive for a woman and 1200 to 1800 for a man. Do that close to the food pyramid you will loose weight at a healthy rate not messing up your metabolism.

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It didn't take extremes, they were talking a 20% cut in intake causing a 30% reduction in basal rate.


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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:08 pm

Howzat wrote:
twizzle wrote:It's certainly not as simple as "calories in".

Was for me. The single most effective thing was counting calories. ....


Protein calories or starch calories? For protein (assuming meat) how well was the meat cooked? Because that will affect how much energy is required to digest and process it. A calorie is a bad measure of available energy.


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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:52 am

twizzle wrote:
Howzat wrote:
twizzle wrote:It's certainly not as simple as "calories in".

Was for me. The single most effective thing was counting calories. ....


Protein calories or starch calories? For protein (assuming meat) how well was the meat cooked? Because that will affect how much energy is required to digest and process it. A calorie is a bad measure of available energy.

Agreed. Fall into the further research required category. In terms of how calorie reduction affects metabolism, another "more research required". We know that very low calorie diets can affect metabolism for between 12 months to 2 years. The question is, how much can you cut calories before the metabolic changes begin. I am guessing it is possible based on my experience losing more than 25 kg over a number of years. The science says that I should be hungry all the time (I'm not), overeating (I'm not) and storing fat (I'm not). But with no research to support my theory, it remains a theory.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby mikedufty » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:59 am

twizzle wrote:
durianrider wrote:Fad low carb diet diet authors claim that 'peak performance is when you are in ketosis!'.

References?

Probably refering to Volek and Phinney http://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-C ... 0983490716
Peter Attia http://eatingacademy.com/
Timothy Noakes http://www.runnersworld.co.za/nutrition ... ary-ideas/

I find their stuff a lot more compelling than Durian Rider's

A lot of the low carb advocates don't actually say everyone should eat low carb, but that there is a lot of individual variation. Noakes in particular is studying endurance performance, finding that some people benefit tremendously from avoiding carbs in ultramarathon events, while some others can't manage without them. It can also vary with age he himself did OK on high carbs when he was younger, but dramatically improved his health, fitness and performance recently by going low carb.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby The Walrus » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:12 am

I don't eat meat and haven't for 10 years. Was a vego but started eating fish 5 years ago.

I just can't be bothered working out all the finer details of food because I find it as boring as bat shi!! but I just take a sensible approach and eat a balanced diet about 90% of the time. I love food and love cooking...

I'm fit and healthy. I'm hardly ever 'sickly' whatever that means. Had one cold in nearly ten years and am now at the weight I was when I was about 21. And I never feel the cold.

Your diet should be common sense. Eat less of the stuff you know is bad and more of the stuff you know is good...then add in some regular exercise and you should be ok. That's my system and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:02 am

The Walrus wrote:Your diet should be common sense. Eat less of the stuff you know is bad and more of the stuff you know is good...then add in some regular exercise and you should be ok


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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:12 am

mikesbytes wrote:
The Walrus wrote:Your diet should be common sense. Eat less of the stuff you know is bad and more of the stuff you know is good...then add in some regular exercise and you should be ok


:D


Common sense just isn't common any more.

That being said... 50% of the Aussie population has an IQ less than 98. A bunch of them trust that either the companies that make food or the "government" are looking out for them. Trans fats... salt & sugar in commercial pizzas... foods deep fried in palm oil... The dollar comes first, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the food companies also have a financial interest in the health industry.

The one that annoys me the most, as a former obese person, is the attempts to "normalise" obese people. All those TV programs that have obese people as principal characters - it's not about discrimination, it's about normalising obesity. In my opinion, anyway.
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