Fractured Ribs
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby sogood » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:22 pm
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby Parker » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:25 pm
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby sogood » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:25 pm
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby Mulger bill » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:36 pm
That's what I was told. Don't want to repeat the exercise tho'.Parker wrote:Cool. Good to know. And I've been told to do this other thing. Basically just turn to the left and the right
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby anthcon » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:12 pm
On my 2nd night home after hospital my wife got the worst case of gastro I have seen..... She was that bad on the bathroom floor all I could think about was how the **** would I be able to handle that in my condition. I couldn't even help her off the floor I was in so much pain....... I did the next best thing and call an ambulance to take her away!. Sad, but true.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby chriscole » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:47 pm
sogood wrote:Given that you've declared that your ribs weren't fractured and it was just muscle and soft tissue bruising, the initial topic has expired and thread drift followed naturally to related health issues.Parker wrote:Topic is ribs
If you care to bring it back to topic, here are two relevant images.
Ahh, if only the costal / intercostal vessels were actually routinely located where the textbooks tell us they are...
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby sogood » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:57 pm
Have you been routinely puncturing them?chriscole wrote:Ahh, if only the costal / intercostal vessels were actually routinely located where the textbooks tell us they are...
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby Parker » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:54 am
I've got mandurah ironman in November which I'm really motivated for and mentally I want my prep to be spot on, so the physio is a need for me. Plus I love going and getting poked and prodded and laughing and crying at the same timesogood wrote:There are only so many movements one can make with those chest muscles. Not sure I'd pay money for a physio for a bit if chest wall exercises unless I am really old and decrepit.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby chriscole » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:30 am
sogood wrote:Have you been routinely puncturing them?chriscole wrote:Ahh, if only the costal / intercostal vessels were actually routinely located where the textbooks tell us they are...
LOL. Thankfully no, not usually. But there is significant/common anatomic variation in real life, which is not usually conveyed by general textbooks. E.g. there is often a decent sized vessel running along the _superior_ margins of the ribs as well as the as-advertised inferiorly located neurovascular bundle. The old "aim just over the rib below" is a bit of a furphy.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby sogood » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:37 am
There are variations in every part of the body. In practice, access via the superior margin of the rib works, especially if the periosteum is lifted. There's nothing old with that instruction.chriscole wrote:LOL. Thankfully no, not usually. But there is significant/common anatomic variation in real life, which is not usually conveyed by general textbooks. E.g. there is often a decent sized vessel running along the _superior_ margins of the ribs as well as the as-advertised inferiorly located neurovascular bundle. The old "aim just over the rib below" is a bit of a furphy.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby Dr_Mutley » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:44 pm
Really? How often does this occur? How have u established this?chriscole wrote:sogood wrote:Have you been routinely puncturing them?chriscole wrote:Ahh, if only the costal / intercostal vessels were actually routinely located where the textbooks tell us they are...
LOL. Thankfully no, not usually. But there is significant/common anatomic variation in real life, which is not usually conveyed by general textbooks. E.g. there is often a decent sized vessel running along the _superior_ margins of the ribs as well as the as-advertised inferiorly located neurovascular bundle. The old "aim just over the rib below" is a bit of a furphy.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby Parker » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:51 pm
I went to physio today, FINALLY. Physio thinks they're probably more bruised than fractured.
I am allowed to:
Spin on the bike
kick in the pool
weight work that is from a seated position
Re-evaluate in 1 week!
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby wombatK » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:32 pm
So did anyone tell you about side effects of pain killers. Some are well known to cause constipation and associated vomiting. while hydration might help, you could need something stronger. Check in with GP.Parker wrote:I can't keep any liquids down today, I went to work yesterday and was fine.
I have thrown up breakfast, coffee, but I did finally poo...
I'm starting to sip small amounts of water to see what happens, I'm keeping an eye on myself and will go to the doctor if the vomiting persists. So tired.
Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us -Jerry Garcia
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby Parker » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:13 pm
Oh wow... I had no ideawombatK wrote:So did anyone tell you about side effects of pain killers. Some are well known to cause constipation and associated vomiting. while hydration might help, you could need something stronger. Check in with GP.Parker wrote:I can't keep any liquids down today, I went to work yesterday and was fine.
I have thrown up breakfast, coffee, but I did finally poo...
I'm starting to sip small amounts of water to see what happens, I'm keeping an eye on myself and will go to the doctor if the vomiting persists. So tired.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby petie » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:01 pm
Oh if only you had proper education around your analgesia regime when it was prescribed and then dispensed to you. Now you know!Parker wrote:Oh wow... I had no ideawombatK wrote:So did anyone tell you about side effects of pain killers. Some are well known to cause constipation and associated vomiting. while hydration might help, you could need something stronger. Check in with GP.Parker wrote:I can't keep any liquids down today, I went to work yesterday and was fine.
I have thrown up breakfast, coffee, but I did finally poo...
I'm starting to sip small amounts of water to see what happens, I'm keeping an eye on myself and will go to the doctor if the vomiting persists. So tired.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby chriscole » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:15 pm
sogood wrote:There are variations in every part of the body. In practice, access via the superior margin of the rib works, especially if the periosteum is lifted. There's nothing old with that instruction.chriscole wrote:LOL. Thankfully no, not usually. But there is significant/common anatomic variation in real life, which is not usually conveyed by general textbooks. E.g. there is often a decent sized vessel running along the _superior_ margins of the ribs as well as the as-advertised inferiorly located neurovascular bundle. The old "aim just over the rib below" is a bit of a furphy.
True. I didn't say there _isn't_ a neurovascular bundle inferiorly, just that relying on there _only_ being an inferior significant costal vessel is often not a correct (or therefore safe) assumption. I still generally err towards the inferior aspect of the intercostal space. Hopefully during thoracostomy with blunt dissection, either to insert a drain or simply a finger, most of us are unlikely to prang an important vessel, anyway... and the majority of the time the risk of doing so is outweighed by the risk of not opening the chest in the first place.
In any case, I fear we have digressed.
Fractured ribs hurt!
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby chriscole » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:20 pm
Fairly common normal anatomic variation. Couldn't give you a % figure, but a good surgical text or experienced thoracic surgeon could probably fill the void. My comment was based on anecdotal evidence from putting in chest drains / doing finger thoracostomies fairly frequently, watching thoracotomies and chit-chat with the friendly neighbourhood thoracic surgical folk who routinely open (and thankfully close) chests.Really? How often does this occur? How have u established this?
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby sogood » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:26 pm
I don't think A&E/ward dissection and chest drain insertions are adequate processes to properly define anatomy. You are going through muscle and muscle bleeds. No proof of hitting one of the intercostal vessels proper. More likely than not, there's not enough adrenaline in the L.A. Even when they do bleed, they bleed internally and get mixed in the chest drain fluid. Nothing proven.chriscole wrote:Fairly common normal anatomic variation. Couldn't give you a % figure, but a good surgical text or experienced thoracic surgeon could probably fill the void. My comment was based on anecdotal evidence from putting in chest drains / doing finger thoracostomies fairly frequently, watching thoracotomies and chit-chat with the friendly neighbourhood thoracic surgical folk who routinely open (and thankfully close) chests.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby chriscole » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:24 am
Phew!! Lucky I was neither trying to prove anything (I generally find that's best left to the mathematicians), nor "define anatomy"... But thanks for the epistle, anyway.sogood wrote:I don't think A&E/ward dissection and chest drain insertions are adequate processes to properly define anatomy. You are going through muscle and muscle bleeds. No proof of hitting one of the intercostal vessels proper. More likely than not, there's not enough adrenaline in the L.A. Even when they do bleed, they bleed internally and get mixed in the chest drain fluid. Nothing proven.chriscole wrote:Fairly common normal anatomic variation. Couldn't give you a % figure, but a good surgical text or experienced thoracic surgeon could probably fill the void. My comment was based on anecdotal evidence from putting in chest drains / doing finger thoracostomies fairly frequently, watching thoracotomies and chit-chat with the friendly neighbourhood thoracic surgical folk who routinely open (and thankfully close) chests.
I do, however, applaud your apparent desire for a more solid evidentiary basis of argument, and with regard to the location and course of the intercostal arteries in real, live humans (as opposed to undergraduate textbook diagrams), one could do worse than to use some of the following recent radiological anatomic studies as jumping-off points:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20154433" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22125216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20718909" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22301442" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Essentially, it runs much more inferiorly (to the extent of being closer to the rib _below_) posteromedially, there is great variability in how laterally it finally ducks for cover behind the rib above, the variability, tortuosity and length of exposure tends to be higher in older patients, and occasionally the damn thing can be exposed in the middle of the intercostal space all the way out at the axillary line(s).
This, I would suggest, might be a wee bit clinically relevant when performing thoracostomies, and even more so when performing thoracocentesis for an effusion from a posterior approach (not uncommon).
But as educational as all of this may be, my main point was not so much about the variable position/course of the intercostal artery, but the likelihood of the presence of less famous (ie unnamed) branches running more superiorly (with regard to the rib). The clinically relevant aspect is simply that one should not be blissfully confident they will not lacerate a significant vessel simply because they are being good little vegemites and staying in the inferior half of the intercostal space like we were all taught at medical school.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby Parker » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:19 am
petie wrote:Oh if only you had proper education around your analgesia regime when it was prescribed and then dispensed to you. Now you know!Parker wrote:Oh wow... I had no ideawombatK wrote: So did anyone tell you about side effects of pain killers. Some are well known to cause constipation and associated vomiting. while hydration might help, you could need something stronger. Check in with GP.
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Re: Fractured Ribs
Postby sogood » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:03 pm
Relax, it's hardly a significant consideration with routine thoracotomy. Periosteal lift and diathermy access, it's all trivial. If you have seen enough of the inside of a thoracic cavity, you'll know the discussions are all a bit academic and a bit overblown.chriscole wrote:This, I would suggest, might be a wee bit clinically relevant when performing thoracostomies, and even more so when performing thoracocentesis for an effusion from a posterior approach (not uncommon).
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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