muscle mass increase or decrease?

[zill]

Just say I train and only train in cycling and not do any specific sprint work but just try to maximize average watts for an entire ride. Let's assumed I did that consistently over months. Assume ride time vary between one hour and 4 hours. Should I expect increase or decrease in muscle mass as a result?

[SydneyRider]

It would largely be dependent upon your diet, and whether or not your diet contained sufficient carbohydrate, fat and protein to maintain your existing muscle mass.

Muscle hypertrophy (growth) in your legs, thighs and gluteus would, on the face of it, given the style of riding that you indicated, not be readily obvious. If your diet though was such as to allow weight loss through removal of fat, then your legs, arms, torso may appear smaller in dimension, and your muscles would appear with greater definition, hence they would appear to have grown.

Ron.

[zill]

It would largely be dependent upon your diet, and whether or not your diet contained sufficient carbohydrate, fat and protein to maintain your existing muscle mass.

Muscle hypertrophy (growth) in your legs, thighs and gluteus would, on the face of it, given the style of riding that you indicated, not be readily obvious. If your diet though was such as to allow weight loss through removal of fat, then your legs, arms, torso may appear smaller in dimension, and your muscles would appear with greater definition, hence they would appear to have grown.

Ron.

Let's say I stayed on a diet with adequate protein. Although the goal is to lose fat overall, I'm just interested in changed in lean tissue mass as a result of lots of cycling and only cycling.

[SydneyRider]

Already answered

Ron.

[singlespeedscott]

Why would you want the upper body build of a prepubescent girl that is displayed by GC riders? All it's good for is on the bike, useless for anything else in the real world.

[zill]

Why would you want the upper body build of a prepubescent girl that is displayed by GC riders? All it's good for is on the bike, useless for anything else in the real world.

Who said I wanted more muscle mass?

Ron is suggesting that my muscle mass won't change much which is what I wanted to hear. Now I can aim for a target weight because I will know that the weight lost will be fat!

[lobstermash]

Maybe you should see a nutritionist.

[Xplora]

Over months you wouldn't see any "obvious" change in muscle mass at all. Probably an increase in muscle density in the legs, but that's it. Of some concern is that you'd want to be ensuring you maintained good flexibility and avoided imbalances, because these take a while to develop and can be hard to fix. Keep stretching and use the Roller.

[durianrider]

100% you are going to lose muscle where the body doesnt need it.

Arms and chest and back muscles will atrophy. Legs and glutes will get a bit more swol due to more glycogen retention.

Cyclists look like cyclists. Powerlifters look like powerlifters.

I just read you said 'couple of months'. Thats not going to give any real longterm results either way. Have a 5 year goal. Thats more realistic.

All the bodybuilder cyclists I know, took em at least 5 years to skinny out.

[singlespeedscott]

100% you are going to lose muscle where the body doesnt need it.

Arms and chest and back muscles will atrophy. Legs and glutes will get a bit more swol due to more glycogen retention.

Cyclists look like cyclists. Powerlifters look like powerlifters.

I just read you said 'couple of months'. Thats not going to give any real longterm results either way. Have a 5 year goal. Thats more realistic.

All the bodybuilder cyclists I know, took em at least 5 years to skinny out.

And now they cant even open a jar of honey

[durianrider]

100% you are going to lose muscle where the body doesnt need it.

Arms and chest and back muscles will atrophy. Legs and glutes will get a bit more swol due to more glycogen retention.

Cyclists look like cyclists. Powerlifters look like powerlifters.

I just read you said 'couple of months'. Thats not going to give any real longterm results either way. Have a 5 year goal. Thats more realistic.

All the bodybuilder cyclists I know, took em at least 5 years to skinny out.

And now they cant even open a jar of honey

Ha ha. Its true though, when stamina goes up, strength goes down and vice versa. Unless the person was totally sedentary with no fitness ever and they will get both fitter and stronger to a point and then eventually strength or fitness decline as they start to excel in one.

[Xplora]

Can't remember where I read this, Hunter Allen's blog mentioned that he has put people in slings for a month, to reduce upper body mass (assuming they had big biceps and pecs), very very successful. Multiple pounds lost from the atrophy

Really would have to do such a thing under an experienced coach; some people carry upper body weight more than others.

[zill]

Over months you wouldn't see any "obvious" change in muscle mass at all. Probably an increase in muscle density in the legs, but that's it. Of some concern is that you'd want to be ensuring you maintained good flexibility and avoided imbalances, because these take a while to develop and can be hard to fix. Keep stretching and use the Roller.

It seems I would 'automatically" be more flexible if I could get rid of a lot of the fat in my waistline?

[zill]

100% you are going to lose muscle where the body doesnt need it.

Arms and chest and back muscles will atrophy. Legs and glutes will get a bit more swol due to more glycogen retention.

Cyclists look like cyclists. Powerlifters look like powerlifters.

I just read you said 'couple of months'. Thats not going to give any real longterm results either way. Have a 5 year goal. Thats more realistic.

All the bodybuilder cyclists I know, took em at least 5 years to skinny out.

Here are the facts, I am 72kg at the moment with a percentage body fat of 14% (from a DEXA scan).

How long should I allow myself (in order to set a goal) of getting to 4% - 5% body fat to around 65kg in a healthy manner (i.e. no crush dieting) which is maintainable for a period of time? Note that I am not just trying to achieve this for competition cycling. More just want to experience 4% body fat and see what it feels like (though would be a bonus if I could ride faster). And also just want to live lighter.

[Xplora]

Over months you wouldn't see any "obvious" change in muscle mass at all. Probably an increase in muscle density in the legs, but that's it. Of some concern is that you'd want to be ensuring you maintained good flexibility and avoided imbalances, because these take a while to develop and can be hard to fix. Keep stretching and use the Roller.

It seems I would 'automatically" be more flexible if I could get rid of a lot of the fat in my waistline?

No, I'll rephrase... the flexibility of your muscles isn't the same as "how close to my toes can I reach?". If you simply have a gut and physically can't reach your toes, that doesn't mean you don't have flexible hamstrings. It means you have a gut. I have been able to touch the ground my whole life from standing, that's simply physiology on my side. I don't have very flexible hamstrings, IMO, they just let me touch the ground. I can't put my chest on my knees for example, despite working on the flexibility.

So, make sure you do your stretches that your body needs, and you'll avoid imbalances and other injuries caused by tightness. See a physio/exercise physiologist/chiro to work out what those might be for you. Irony is I need pec stretches, despite not having pecs so you might be surprised.

[durianrider]

Here are the facts, I am 72kg at the moment with a percentage body fat of 14% (from a DEXA scan).

How long should I allow myself (in order to set a goal) of getting to 4% - 5% body fat to around 65kg in a healthy manner (i.e. no crush dieting) which is maintainable for a period of time? Note that I am not just trying to achieve this for competition cycling. More just want to experience 4% body fat and see what it feels like (though would be a bonus if I could ride faster). And also just want to live lighter.[/quote]

DEXA scans are not really accurate as one can guzzle a lot of water + salt + creatine and put on as much water retention as possible and that will be counted as 'lean mass' and drop BF% even if fat mass has not changed a gram.

What is your current PB for 10 minute power up a climb?

BF% is really inaccurate. I might throw numbers around on youtube but thats more for trolling sake. Some pro cyclists are extremely vascular Lance,Cadel,Ulrich and some like Porte/Contador are not. Depends on the individual. What is important is you are slim and carbed up.

[zill]

DEXA scans are not really accurate as one can guzzle a lot of water + salt + creatine and put on as much water retention as possible and that will be counted as 'lean mass' and drop BF% even if fat mass has not changed a gram.

What is your current PB for 10 minute power up a climb?

BF% is really inaccurate. I might throw numbers around on youtube but thats more for trolling sake. Some pro cyclists are extremely vascular Lance,Cadel,Ulrich and some like Porte/Contador are not. Depends on the individual. What is important is you are slim and carbed up.

PB power is around 300 watts up a climb.

If BF% is so inaccurate, why do everyone use it (i.e. all articles on pro cyclist's body composition always seem to mention body fat percentage).

Let's assume, I measure BF when hydrated but not overly and everything else being normal (i.e not trying to artificially tamper with anything).

Or if you prefer, what amount of kg of fat/cm of height do pro cyclists (let's say GC riders) usually have?

[CKinnard]

Zill, you are talking about dropping weight from 72kg (14%) to 65kg (5%), so 7kg to go.
However, I'd suggest you not aim for 5%, but 7-8%.
Your health will be compromised staying under 7% for long periods. how much depends on your somatotype and genes.
5% however would be ok for a few months.

A smart rate to lose 10kg, with minimal decline in power would be 1/4kg/week. A faster wt loss rate than this (when under 15% bodyfat) loses significant lean tissue, even if you do weights and cycling. The lean tissue loss can account for as high as 20% when losing more than 0.5% bodywt per week.

However, if you want to lean down in the upper body, and rebuild power after you reach your goal weight (and come off a Calorie deficit), then losing 0.5-0.75kg/week would be useful. You will lose lean tissue preferentially from muscles not being exercised as much. So if you do only cycling, your upper limbs will lean right down, as will your neck and back musculature. I'd suggest though you do some bodyweight exercise for your upper body 2x a week.

Getting back to your original question, your age, genes, general health, and diet will all impact how much non exercised muscle is lost.
Generally, longer rides will break down more protein (lean tissue), especially if you don't have some protein during and after the ride.

[zill]

Zill, you are talking about dropping weight from 72kg (14%) to 65kg (5%), so 7kg to go.
However, I'd suggest you not aim for 5%, but 7-8%.
Your health will be compromised staying under 7% for long periods. how by much depends on your somatotype and genes.
5% however would be ok for a few months.

A smart rate to lose 10kg, with minimal decline in power would be 1/4kg/week. A faster wt loss rate than this (when under 15% bodyfat) loses significant lean tissue, even if you do weights and cycling. The lean tissue loss can account for as high as 20% when losing more than 0.5% bodywt per week.

However, if you want to lean down in the upper body, and rebuild power after you reach your goal weight (and come off a Calorie deficit), then losing 0.5-0.75kg/week would be useful. You will lose lean tissue preferentially from muscles not being exercised as much. So if you do only cycling, your upper limbs will lean right down, as will your neck and back musculature. I'd suggest though you do some bodyweight exercise for your upper body 2x a week.

Getting back to your original question, your age, genes, general health, and diet will all impact how much non exercised muscle is lost.
Generally, longer rides will break down more protein (lean tissue), especially if you don't have some protein during and after the ride.

Yes, that's right.

What negative health effects are there of going below 5%?

[zill]

Actually, I'm just struggling to get my body fat into the single digits at all.

So probably too early to talk about 4 to 5%. But they do feel like magic figures.

[Xplora]

Don't worry about getting the weight down at all; just ride heaps and don't reward yourself for the ride. Ice cold shower is a reward that bears no calories
I've put on 2kgs, part of it is creatine, part of it upper body mass, part of it is lower body mass, part of it is plain "I pinch the strip of fat from my wife's steak and lick the olive oil dressing off my plate nom nom nom nom" and despite being rather out of condition, I'm as fast as I've ever been. Why? Because you don't improve power by inducing severe calorie deficits. Do NOT try and lose weight. Stop eating sugary treats; that means fruit too, everything in moderation as they say. Your body fat will decline naturally as you ride 100+ kms on a regular basis. You can't ride 10+ hours a week without your body flicking the switch. It doesn't want to die, it will force you to do the right thing. There are no 300km a week fatties. No such thing.

[zill]

Don't worry about getting the weight down at all; just ride heaps and don't reward yourself for the ride. Ice cold shower is a reward that bears no calories
I've put on 2kgs, part of it is creatine, part of it upper body mass, part of it is lower body mass, part of it is plain "I pinch the strip of fat from my wife's steak and lick the olive oil dressing off my plate nom nom nom nom" and despite being rather out of condition, I'm as fast as I've ever been. Why? Because you don't improve power by inducing severe calorie deficits. Do NOT try and lose weight. Stop eating sugary treats; that means fruit too, everything in moderation as they say. Your body fat will decline naturally as you ride 100+ kms on a regular basis. You can't ride 10+ hours a week without your body flicking the switch. It doesn't want to die, it will force you to do the right thing. There are no 300km a week fatties. No such thing.

Why would you want more upper body mass and take creatine?

It's true that I do lose a fair bit of weight after a 100km ride!

[Xplora]

Why? Because sprinting requires strength beyond just your legs. Because my muscle imbalances mean I get pain in my shoulders if I don't have a strong back. Because upper body mass is cool, and I'm not chasing the Chris Froome "ideal climber physique". At 6'1", 75kg is still a runt in the pack. Creatine helps with the endurance of your Z6 efforts. Z6 wins races.

[zill]

Why? Because sprinting requires strength beyond just your legs. Because my muscle imbalances mean I get pain in my shoulders if I don't have a strong back. Because upper body mass is cool, and I'm not chasing the Chris Froome "ideal climber physique". At 6'1", 75kg is still a runt in the pack. Creatine helps with the endurance of your Z6 efforts. Z6 wins races.

Won't you a break away type or just changing now?

Your numbers are still very good. Is your body fat in the single digits?

[CKinnard]

What negative health effects are there of going below 5%?

3-5% is considered essential fat (for males. it's higher for women). This stuff is used structurally in the nervous system, bone marrow, and other organs.
Essential means your health is compromised if you lose this stuff.

When not exercising, you use mostly fat as energy. If you don't have enough, you will periodically suffer from lack of energy.
Keep in mind it measuring fat % at this level is very inaccurate. You honestly just want to focus on a particular look, and not get hung up on %s.