muscle mass increase or decrease?

[zill]

Thanks a lot for this article. Are you in the area of nutrition yourself?

Yes. I am part of a multi-disciplined health clinician group that conducts regular workshops for those with chronic disease wanting to change their lifestyles and diet. So I am on the front line of seeing and feeling what happens to obese bodies and the changes as the weight comes off.

Ah that explains it. You obviously believe that moderation is the key? But what if someone eats the amount of calories according to the Harris–Benedict equation consisting of cakes, biscuits and chocolates only? Would they still be healthy?

My GP however, is an advocate for the HFLC diet. Have you read the "Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living"? If so what do you think of it?

[zill]

I have to eat KFC and Dominos for breakfast for months to put on 5kgs. I have done it before. My "fat" look makes the Biggest Loser contestants look like tubbies at the end. I'm very slender. The weights is simply a recognition that you need to wake up your nervous system and your postural muscles and bones with something, and bikes and computers don't do a good job at doing that. Squatting 100kgs sends a very clear message to your body that "hey, you need to pay attention here!". It's one of the reasons they say if you want to ride fast, you have to train fast... because your body does what it needs to, and given my natural frame is quite light I need to thump it with some weights to behave a bit tougher.

I've never taken a jersey off, if I am having a bad shoulder day I get help to pin it on. A great way to make friends, especially if you're both running late! You pin my back, and I'll pin yours

Have you ever reached 80kg before? I have a friend who is also thin by nature and does weight and eat protein shakes, is 6 foot but never have reached 80kg. Clearly polar opposites to myself.

Are you grateful that it is hard for you to put on weight? There was a documentary on You tube called why thin people are not fat. A group of volunteer thin people participated in an experiment where they ate double what they normally eat. Over time they all gained weight but not by very much and all lost them after the experiment was over. Is it more the case that thin people like yourself just don't have very good appetites or is it that genetically, you just have trouble storing fat? Or both?

So you can pin your number on without any help? How much practice did that take?

[singlespeedscott]

... Is it more the case that thin people like yourself just don't have very good appetites or is it that genetically, you just have trouble storing fat? Or both?

Oh to have these issues

[Xplora]

It's a completely different body type to the heavier types, either fat or muscle focused. It is what it is. Being thin is a bitch if you want to be "Big", but being an Arnie build is a bitch if you want to ride bikes fast for more than 20 seconds. I almost hit 80. I waver around 70-71, although currently hovering around 75 after the weights and creatine. You have to eat for your goals, we live in a nutrient rich culture, so HTFU and do what you gotta do. Your tall mate could easily beef up, BUT it might take more time than you could achieve it, and it might be soul destroying as he forces himself to eat enough calories to defeat his metabolic tendencies.

I don't know what is the cause of it all. I truly believe that willpower is a big issue. It's a serious bitchout to say "I just have to have cake". You HAVE to have a gel after riding 200kms. You do NOT need a gel because you walked to the bus stop. If you want to eat cake, then eat it. But don't tell me you need it, because until you've walked a mile in your shoes, my shoes, and the shoes of about 20 other people, I struggle to believe you need cake. (not you specifically btw).

You only stab yourself once pinning on the number.

[lobstermash]

My GP however, is an advocate for the HFLC diet. Have you read the "Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living"? If so what do you think of it?

One of my colleagues is massively into paleo, mixing in a little 2 and 5. I've known him for two years, and in the first year he lost a little weight and seemed to be in OK shape. This year however, he's put on a heap of weight and feels too sluggish to do much exercise. I hope he sees that his unbalanced fad diet, supposedly roughly based off what we guess our ancestors might have eaten and will never be able to validate, is just not healthy, especially in the mid-long term.

A balanced diet, along with a reasonable amount of exercise, is all that's needed to keep you healthy. If you want real science, that's actually based on hard clinical data rather than guesswork about pre-history humanoids (whose dietary requirements would likely have been different to ours anyway), check out the CSIRO 'diet' (though really it's just a good guide on what a balanced diet is, rather than a 'program' as such).

[zill]

It's a completely different body type to the heavier types, either fat or muscle focused. It is what it is. Being thin is a bitch if you want to be "Big", but being an Arnie build is a bitch if you want to ride bikes fast for more than 20 seconds. I almost hit 80. I waver around 70-71, although currently hovering around 75 after the weights and creatine. You have to eat for your goals, we live in a nutrient rich culture, so HTFU and do what you gotta do. Your tall mate could easily beef up, BUT it might take more time than you could achieve it, and it might be soul destroying as he forces himself to eat enough calories to defeat his metabolic tendencies.

I don't know what is the cause of it all. I truly believe that willpower is a big issue. It's a serious bitchout to say "I just have to have cake". You HAVE to have a gel after riding 200kms. You do NOT need a gel because you walked to the bus stop. If you want to eat cake, then eat it. But don't tell me you need it, because until you've walked a mile in your shoes, my shoes, and the shoes of about 20 other people, I struggle to believe you need cake. (not you specifically btw).

You only stab yourself once pinning on the number.

What if someone eats the amount of calories strictly according to the Harris–Benedict equation consisting of cakes, biscuits and chocolates only? Would they still stay healthy?

[Xplora]

I think Friel's Training Bible has a nice approach. He is massively into Paleo as well, but acknowledges that cavemen didn't do much. They would have sat around like lions much of the time. The "modern training athlete" has to consume a lot of food to get the energy to perform. It is not normal to ride a bike and get 100TSS if your survival doesn't depend on it. So we need to adjust our expectations a bit.

A nutritionist is better placed to answer the cakes biscuits question, but you're a smart enough guy to know that man does not survive well on a diet that eliminates key nutrients. You might not die, but you'd be a mess without your meat and veg. Humans aren't ants or bees or "other animal". We are omnivorous and fact is, steak beats the hell out of cake any day. I would rather a roast with a candle in the top than a cake, but it won't happen because its socially inappropriate.

[CKinnard]

Thanks a lot for this article. Are you in the area of nutrition yourself?

Yes. I am part of a multi-disciplined health clinician group that conducts regular workshops for those with chronic disease wanting to change their lifestyles and diet. So I am on the front line of seeing and feeling what happens to obese bodies and the changes as the weight comes off.

Ah that explains it. You obviously believe that moderation is the key?

My GP however, is an advocate for the HFLC diet. Have you read the "Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living"? If so what do you think of it?

My views conform with the science, relative to a longevity advantage.
If HFLC has a proven superior longevity advantage, I have not read it in the literature.

I am unaware of any Olympic endurance athlete or GC cyclist who follows the (theoretical) benefits of a HFLC diet.

It seems to me HFLC proponents are so on the basis of the diet's ability to help obese people (with insulin resistance and immune disturbances) lose weight more comfortably. Strictly speaking this doesn't mean the diet is superior for children and adults of normal weight.
Personally, I feel many of the diet's health benefits come from increasing fruit and vege well above that of the standard american diet.

[zill]

zill, if weight loss is your main game, then the Calorie deficit trumps macronutrient ratio every time.
If you see a sports dietitian, they'll focus first and foremost on getting the deficit right, and tell you point blank macronutrient ratio variation does not influence weight loss independent of the deficit.
All pro cyclists trying to lose or control weight are subjected to the same science.

But what if someone follows the Harris–Benedict equation but eating only cakes, biscuits and chocolates? Would they still be healthy?

[CKinnard]

obviously not; and that's not conforming with what science knows about a longevity advantage.

[zill]

Just had a 7000kj plus breakfast which included a binge of museli after a big oily breakfast.

Must stop these binges. Must skip lunch today!

[mikesbytes]

Don't skip lunch, protein lasts around 4 hours

[Xplora]

A large Pizza Hut pizza is 8000kj. Stop putting that crap in your mouth. It is meaningless to worry about power meters when you would actually get faster by eating 500kj for breakfast and morning tea.

Focus as an athlete means more than riding 300 a week. You might want to do some more work on your diet to reevaluate how and when you are getting your calories.

[zill]

Don't skip lunch, protein lasts around 4 hours

But museli is mostly carbs and had about 4000kj of them.

[zill]

Focus as an athlete means more than riding 300 a week. You might want to do some more work on your diet to reevaluate how and when you are getting your calories.

I have to ride 270km just for everyday purposes but you are right to say that I should focus as an athlete and that is how I lost 34kg in the first place. Now, I have lost that mentality. So my self control is not as strong however, at least haven't put back on too much weight and still consider myself light but not skinny at the moment.

[Xplora]

You aren't a horse. Muesli is a bad way to get protein

You have to replace patterns of behaviour with other patterns. Exsmokers get fat because they are unwilling to fight the compulsions; smoking is fat free, timtams are not. If you have to ride to stop yourself eating, then ride.

[dalai47]

you'd be a mess without your meat and veg.

Wrong! Plenty of valuable sources of protein that aren't meat.

[casual_cyclist]

zill, if weight loss is your main game, then the Calorie deficit trumps macronutrient ratio every time.
If you see a sports dietitian, they'll focus first and foremost on getting the deficit right, and tell you point blank macronutrient ratio variation does not influence weight loss independent of the deficit.
All pro cyclists trying to lose or control weight are subjected to the same science.

Are you suggesting all calories are the same? So no difference between fat calories and carb calories?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The study does not say if the "weight" lost was muscle, fat or both. It's great if you "lose" a couple of kilos, but it's not so great if half of that is lean muscle.

[CKinnard]

The study does not say if the "weight" lost was muscle, fat or both. It's great if you "lose" a couple of kilos, but it's not so great if half of that is lean muscle.

From the same folk, essentially.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/3/614.long" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lean tissue preservation is most strongly influenced by rate of weight loss, which is why authorities recommend people with BMI's under 30 not lose more than 1% bodyweight / week. It is secondarily influenced by testosterone and growth hormone stimulus behaviors, like resistance training.

[Xplora]

you'd be a mess without your meat and veg.

Wrong! Plenty of valuable sources of protein that aren't meat.

He was talking a cake and biscuits diet, not muesli Anyone can do the vegan thing, but cake and desserts is not vegan, it's malnutrition.

[zill]

I'm starting to go for a balanced diet and doing calorie counting according to the Harris–Benedict equation. Is that the most reliable data out there?

I did binge eat yesterday morning but then had a little food during the day and a small dinner in order to get the right amount of calories for the day. Worked well but I'll have to try to cut out the binges and especially at night since, I would not have more calories to cut for the rest of that day! So I would either go to bed feeling too full or decrease calories the next day. Would that work?

[Xplora]

I think, give you aren't wafer thin yet, HTFU and stick to whatever plan you seem to think might work, and see how you go. Part of this is experiential. Your body and calorie consumption is different to mine. Your nutrient usage is different to mine. I drank a big cup of milk before bed for over ten years when I was little. There are arguments such a practice but I was a skinny little kid. Situation is different now. I am older. I actually need carbs and more protein if I am riding when the sun comes up the next day. Experience teaches you what works. All these RDI things are simply suggestions, even equations like Harris Benedict assume you are exercising a certain amount, maybe it underestimates your calorie requirements. Maybe you mentally just cannot control calories to an extreme level. Try, take notes, review and restart. This was part of the "you have to start racing" advice... You cannot do all this stuff by theory alone.

[fat and old]

Exsmokers get fat because they are unwilling to fight the compulsions; smoking is fat free, timtams are not. If you have to ride to stop yourself eating, then ride.

Spot on. Want to stop any habits? Just ride. That's what I (eventually) did, and it worked. And I'm nothing special, no ambitions to race or break records.....just live healthier. It was just that after months of reading about this stuff, buying heaps of crap on-line, and talking about it incessantly I came to the realisation that Yoda is right.

There is no try, just do.

Although the notion that there's no 300km fatties might be a little off, looking in the mirror

[kb]

Don't forget to sleep. Not only is it good for you but it's pretty hard to eat while sleeping

[CKinnard]

I'm starting to go for a balanced diet and doing calorie counting according to the Harris–Benedict equation. Is that the most reliable data out there?

I did binge eat yesterday morning but then had a little food during the day and a small dinner in order to get the right amount of calories for the day. Worked well but I'll have to try to cut out the binges and especially at night since, I would not have more calories to cut for the rest of that day! So I would either go to bed feeling too full or decrease calories the next day. Would that work?

No the Harris Benedict isn't the most precise estimate of BMR, and it is a joke to use the lifestyle multipliers on many websites and apps.
If you PM me your vital stats, weekly exercise (cycling and other stuff), occupation, and any other activity, I'll give you a better estimate.

As a rough guide though, if you don't spend more than 8 hours on the bike every week, and stay around 1500-1800 Calories/day, you should lose between 0.5-1kg/wk. (presuming you are not a tree lopper, roofer, full time hole digger)

Although successful wt loss is primarily about getting the deficit right, maintainnig the deficit is about recognizing and beating cravings.
That can be aided by drinking more water, getting better quality sleep, going to bed earlier, dealing with life stressors better, eating the right foods in balance.

I'd encourage you to Calorie count for a few months. You will learn more about food and weight loss doing that than anything else.
The majority of people are grossly ignorant about the energy content of various foods, and how much they expend doing various activities....hence obesity epidemic.