Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

[Nobody]

When you go vegan, the Homers only come out if you tell everyone you're vegan.

People you know ask what you are doing when they notice you've lost 15+ Kg or 20% of your body weight. Also I went to a lunch and was specifically asked if I was vegan when she noticed I wasn't eating any meat. Of course, the next question was, "Where do you get your protein?"
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/do-vege ... h-protein/

[T0M11]

My wife is vegetarian and I am transitioning to vegan, is it just me or do many of the pages you come across seem to be a bit militant about the whole meat is murder thing.
On another note, any tips from the BNA vegan cyclists about transitioning to a full vegan?

[bigfriendlyvegan]

Vegan web sites and a lot of the vegan community are a bunch of freaking whackos. Best to stay away from most of them. There are good sites like No Meat Athlete and some vegan body building ones, but a lot of them are just plain crap.

Tips for transitioning to veganism - don't eat animal stuff. Easy.

Actually, Cliff Bars are vegan and lots of the Carman's muesli bars are as well.

[mikesbytes]

I am sure that this will be of interest to both sides of the fence.
Headline is

Vegetarians drink and smoke less and exercise more than their meat-eating cousins... but they're not as happy and are more likely to feel depressed and anxious

More at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ssues.html

What a crap article, it doesn't even provide a link to the study, there's no way of knowing how the conclusions were reached

And when did the daily mail reach AU? I see the column femail has been renamed Don't Miss

[mikesbytes]

Mum use to tell me I need 3 different colours on my plate, thank goodness for fruit loops

[T0M11]

Vegan web sites and a lot of the vegan community are a bunch of freaking whackos. Best to stay away from most of them. There are good sites like No Meat Athlete and some vegan body building ones, but a lot of them are just plain crap.

Tips for transitioning to veganism - don't eat animal stuff. Easy.

Actually, Cliff Bars are vegan and lots of the Carman's muesli bars are as well.

Thanks BFV!!! Those Carman bars are awesome.

[CKinnard]

Vegan web sites and a lot of the vegan community are a bunch of freaking whackos. Best to stay away from most of them. There are good sites like No Meat Athlete and some vegan body building ones, but a lot of them are just plain crap.

Tips for transitioning to veganism - don't eat animal stuff. Easy.

Actually, Cliff Bars are vegan and lots of the Carman's muesli bars are as well.

So BFV, have you been overweight since turning vegan? ru overweight now? Do you eat til sated? or watch your portions?
Do you drink booze?

[Nobody]

On another note, any tips from the BNA vegan cyclists about transitioning to a full vegan?

I'm going to assume by your comments you are changing to chase better health.

So tips:

- Supplementing B12 is necessary for vegans to avoid nerve damage.

- Oil is a processed food and is bad for your arteries, so avoid. Also eating too much plant based fat will generally still make you fat. So keep nuts, avocados and many processed foods to a minimum.

- Eat whole foods (or at least with minimal processing) for maximum benefit. (Obvious, but worth emphasizing).

- About 1 to 2 tablespoons of linseed (flax seed) a day helps to balance your omega 6 to omega 3 ratio which should be between 2:1 and 4:1.

- For best results, keep learning and tuning your diet to find out what works for you. Not everyone responds the same way on any specific diet.

[bigfriendlyvegan]

So BFV, have you been overweight since turning vegan? ru overweight now? Do you eat til sated? or watch your portions?
Do you drink booze?

Getting personal now, are we? Here it goes...Was about 125kg before becoming vegan (in 93), dropped down to 108kg over about 18 months, met my wife who is a brilliant cook, got into a PhD program, stopped doing anything active, went up to 137kg, had lots of kids. My Dad had his second heart attack about 7 years ago, so I bought a bike and dropped down to 92kg over 2 years (riding >50 km round trips for work + better eating), got a new, higher paying, executive job only 2km from home, went back up to 104 kg as of July this year. At that point I realised it was way too easy for me to get fat, so I've been very good for 6 months and I'm down to 93kg as of today, which puts me just above 25 BMI. I haven't been doing anything special save for not gorging myself, which I have a tendency to do, and making sure I get enough riding in by taking the 20km route to and from work. I don't drink, but I never really have. I'm allergic to non-clear alcohols, red wine etc., so I don't bother. I'm a taurus and my turn offs include people who smoke and people whose tattoo to teeth ratio exceeds 1.

[CKinnard]

So BFV, have you been overweight since turning vegan? ru overweight now? Do you eat til sated? or watch your portions?
Do you drink booze?

Getting personal now, are we? Here it goes...Was about 125kg before becoming vegan (in 93), dropped down to 108kg over about 18 months, met my wife who is a brilliant cook, got into a PhD program, stopped doing anything active, went up to 137kg, had lots of kids. My Dad had his second heart attack about 7 years ago, so I bought a bike and dropped down to 92kg over 2 years (riding >50 km round trips for work + better eating), got a new, higher paying, executive job only 2km from home, went back up to 104 kg as of July this year. At that point I realised it was way too easy for me to get fat, so I've been very good for 6 months and I'm down to 93kg as of today, which puts me just above 25 BMI. I haven't been doing anything special save for not gorging myself, which I have a tendency to do, and making sure I get enough riding in by taking the 20km route to and from work. I don't drink, but I never really have. I'm allergic to non-clear alcohols, red wine etc., so I don't bother. I'm a taurus and my turn offs include people who smoke and people whose tattoo to teeth ratio exceeds 1.

Thanks for being so open. So which foods do you overeat? fatty? starchy? ALL? do you snack a lot? do you know if you've ever had metabolic syndrome or similar?
Many people think becoming vegan in itself is a sure fire way to reach ideal athletic body fat% - well, lot's of naive teenagers and 20 somethings. But ime, that's BS for most, and they still have to follow Cals in/out.

[T0M11]

On another note, any tips from the BNA vegan cyclists about transitioning to a full vegan?

I'm going to assume by your comments you are changing to chase better health.

So tips:

- Supplementing B12 is necessary for vegans to avoid nerve damage.

- Oil is a processed food and is bad for your arteries, so avoid. Also eating too much plant based fat will generally still make you fat. So keep nuts, avocados and many processed foods to a minimum.

- Eat whole foods (or at least with minimal processing) for maximum benefit. (Obvious, but worth emphasizing).

- About 1 to 2 tablespoons of linseed (flax seed) a day helps to balance your omega 6 to omega 3 ratio which should be between 2:1 and 4:1.

- For best results, keep learning and tuning your diet to find out what works for you. Not everyone responds the same way on any specific diet.

You assume correctly.

Thank you for the info Nobody. All I really need to do is to supplement my B12 and I should be well on the way.

[bigfriendlyvegan]

Thanks for being so open. So which foods do you overeat? fatty? starchy? ALL? do you snack a lot? do you know if you've ever had metabolic syndrome or similar? Many people think becoming vegan in itself is a sure fire way to reach ideal athletic body fat% - well, lot's of naive teenagers and 20 somethings. But ime, that's BS for most, and they still have to follow Cals in/out.

Yep, it's calories in versus calories out when it comes to weight. It's not always that case when it comes to performance, though. When I race all out (track racing) I find myself severely depleted and find it hard to recover - essentially I'm bonking after one full on effort. I'm working on that sort of stuff now. I'm never going to go really fast, but I'd like to be able to recover properly and race again ten/fifteen minutes later. Nutrition is a funny thing and quite complicated, but when it comes to weight loss, calories out > calories in is all you need.

There are big vegans out there, I was/am one of them. I know a lot of fat vegetarians. The only real benefit of looking like a front rower is that no one ever gives you crap about being a vegan.

I tend to overeat starchy foods. I'm not a big sugar fan, though I used to be. I find lots of things way too sweet now, but give me a nice fruit/nut bread, or hot crossed buns, or my wife's lemon apple pie and I have to restrict myself. Adding some protein to a starchy meal makes it more filling and I tend to not overeat it then. This means making spag bol with brown lentils or with beans, things like that.

I don't snack a lot anymore and I don't have, nor have ever had, metabolic syndrome. Despite being a land whale, I never had excessive belly fat, I was an all over fattie. Being a vegan, my blood sugar and cholesterol were always excellent.

I cured the snacking situation by snacking on nuts when I feel the need, rather than going for the chips. Now I'm not a compulsive snacker and when I've eaten my meals, if I'm still hungry I'll supplement with a handful of nuts or peanut butter (just crushed nuts, no sugar) on some wholemeal bread. There is a lot of habit when it comes to eating, and I try to be aware of that and not let it happen.

[mikesbytes]

Well done BFV, that's some great weight loss

[casual_cyclist]

- Oil is a processed food and is bad for your arteries, so avoid. Also eating too much plant based fat will generally still make you fat. So keep nuts, avocados and many processed foods to a minimum.

While it's fine to express opinions, it would be helpful the newer folk to be warned that this type of thinking is controversial and there are many other views. An example from mayo clinic, who I would not consider to be "fringe" science":

Dietary fat is a macronutrient that provides energy for your body. Fat is essential to your health because it supports a number of your body's functions. Some vitamins, for instance, must have fat to dissolve and nourish your body.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-livin ... t-20045550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My flatmate is mid 50's, eat's mostly vegetarian, physically active and eats plenty of nuts, avocado and olive oil. He had a heart attack due to a congential birth defect and actually had his arteries examined by the surgeon who went in to fix the birth defect. Turns out his arteries are very clean and the surgeon demanded exactly zero lifestyle changes resulting from the heart attack. Personally I don't think there is much good evidence to support a claim that "Oil is a processed food and is bad for your arteries, so avoid".

It is interesting that the lifestyle with the most medical evidence to support heart health is the Mediterranean diet, which includes moderate amounts of olive oil, nuts and fish.

Research has shown that the traditional Mediterranean diet reduces the risk of heart disease. In fact, an analysis of more than 1.5 million healthy adults demonstrated that following a Mediterranean diet was associated with a reduced risk of death from heart disease and cancer, as well as a reduced incidence of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-livin ... t-20047801" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[casual_cyclist]

I know a lot of fat vegetarians.

Me! Although I am back down to 92 kg, so just higher than BMI 25.

I don't snack a lot anymore and I don't have, nor have ever had, metabolic syndrome. Despite being a land whale, I never had excessive belly fat, I was an all over fattie. Being a vegan, my blood sugar and cholesterol were always excellent.

That's interesting. I'm the opposite. Modest meals and too much snacking for me. And my snacking was mostly sugary foods

I cured the snacking situation by snacking on nuts when I feel the need, rather than going for the chips.

Nuts are a great snack. I had to cure my snacking situation by not snacking.

There is a lot of habit when it comes to eating, and I try to be aware of that and not let it happen.

Ugh! Yes! I pick up bad eating habits so quickly. Why is it so easy to form a bad eating habit but so hard to break it?

[casual_cyclist]

In other news, DR was back and I missed it!!!!!!

And he didn't even post about bananas!!!!!

[Nobody]

- Oil is a processed food and is bad for your arteries, so avoid. Also eating too much plant based fat will generally still make you fat. So keep nuts, avocados and many processed foods to a minimum.

While it's fine to express opinions, it would be helpful the newer folk to be warned that this type of thinking is controversial and there are many other views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_o4YBQPKtQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfBKauKVi4M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-fish ... snake-oil/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[casual_cyclist]

- Oil is a processed food and is bad for your arteries, so avoid. Also eating too much plant based fat will generally still make you fat. So keep nuts, avocados and many processed foods to a minimum.

While it's fine to express opinions, it would be helpful the newer folk to be warned that this type of thinking is controversial and there are many other views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_o4YBQPKtQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfBKauKVi4M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-fish ... snake-oil/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would not suggest people take fish oil supplements. Mediterranean-style diets include some fish, not fish oils.

You have to admit that Dr McDougall is controversial and has many critics. The criticism of Dr McDougall is not just from the typical (unqualified) paleo crew either. Read what another Doctor thinks about his diet plan:

In summary, the McDougall Program is basically false propaganda to convert people to veganism. I am not opposed to veganism but I am opposed to the misinformation that was presented by Dr. McDougall. - See more at: http://enlita.com/blog/mcdougall-progra ... A2R99.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was a recent review of the literature "Diets to Prevent Coronary Heart Disease 1957-2013: What Have We Learned?" that found that:

Nearly all clinical trials in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s compared usual diets with those characterized by low total fat, low saturated fat, low dietary cholesterol, and increased polyunsaturated fats. Free-living volunteers were able to adhere to these diets whose goal was to decrease serum cholesterol to prevent cardiovascular events. These diets did reduce cholesterol levels. However, they did not reduce the incidence of myocardial infarction or coronary heart disease deaths.

On the basis of the results of the Diet Reinfarction Study, the Lyon Diet Heart Study in 1994 and 1999, the PREDIMED study in 2013, and the recent report by Li et al, it is clear that dietary patterns consistent with the traditional Mediterranean-style diet are particularly cardioprotective. Mediterranean-style diets are effective in preventing coronary heart disease even though they do not decrease total serum cholesterol or low-density lipoprotein cholesterol.

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-934 ... X/fulltext

The review highlights the final report of the Lyon Diet Heart Study which concluded:

The protective effect of the Mediterranean dietary pattern was maintained up to 4 years after the first infarction, confirming previous intermediate analyses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9989963" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Repeated studies have shown that the Mediterranean dietary pattern, which includes olive oil, is protective against cardiovascular disease. I really can't see how the claim that "Oil is a processed food and is bad for your arteries" is supported by quality evidence.

Further reading & references on studies into the Mediterranean diet.
(1) Estruch R, Ros E, Salas-Salvado J, et al; Primary prevention of cardiovascular disease with a Mediterranean diet. N Engl J Med. 2013 Apr 4;368(14):1279-90. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa1200303. Epub 2013 Feb 25.
(2) Boccardi V, Esposito A, Rizzo MR, et al; Mediterranean Diet, Telomere Maintenance and Health Status among Elderly. PLoS One. 2013 Apr 30;8(4):e62781. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0062781. Print 2013.
(3) Sofi F, Cesari F, Abbate R, et al; Adherence to Mediterranean diet and health status: meta-analysis. BMJ. 2008 Sep 11;337:a1344. doi: 10.1136/bmj.a1344.
(4) Martinez-Gonzalez MA, de la Fuente-Arrillaga C, Nunez-Cordoba JM, et al; Adherence to Mediterranean diet and risk of developing diabetes: prospective cohort study. BMJ. 2008 Jun 14;336(7657):1348-51. Epub 2008 May 29.
(5) Hu EA, Toledo E, Diez-Espino J, et al; Lifestyles and Risk Factors Associated with Adherence to the Mediterranean Diet: A Baseline Assessment of the PREDIMED Trial. PLoS One. 2013 Apr 29;8(4):e60166. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0060166. Print 2013.
(1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=23432189" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=23646142" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(3) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=18786971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=18511765" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(5) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=23637743" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[warthog1]

I'm a taurus and my turn offs include people who smoke and people whose tattoo to teeth ratio exceeds 1.

I'm not a taurus but +1 on the other 2

[mikesbytes]

Vegetables eaten with this mornings breakfast;
- Cucumber
- Mushroom (technically not a vegetable, but lets not get picky)
- Sponge Gourd

[simonn]

Thanks for being so open. So which foods do you overeat? fatty? starchy? ALL? do you snack a lot? do you know if you've ever had metabolic syndrome or similar? Many people think becoming vegan in itself is a sure fire way to reach ideal athletic body fat% - well, lot's of naive teenagers and 20 somethings. But ime, that's BS for most, and they still have to follow Cals in/out.

Yep, it's calories in versus calories out when it comes to weight. It's not always that case when it comes to performance, though. When I race all out (track racing) I find myself severely depleted and find it hard to recover - essentially I'm bonking after one full on effort. I'm working on that sort of stuff now. I'm never going to go really fast, but I'd like to be able to recover properly and race again ten/fifteen minutes later. Nutrition is a funny thing and quite complicated, but when it comes to weight loss, calories out > calories in is all you need.

Hmmmm.... calories out > calories in will make you lose weight, but you can/will also lose muscle.

I've been vegetarian for ~25 years, wtih vegan stages etc. The only thing I have had success losing weight and gaining muscle with is high protein low calories. Basically, aiming for 50% protein, 35% carbs, 15% (good - olive oil, avocado etc) fat. As I am sedentary during my work day I aim for 1400-1500 calories and other than on audax ride days and maybe Saturday morning fast rides I'm certainly under 1800 most of the time. For rides where over 90 mins or so (when I risk a bonk, basically) I take gels and use them if I need to. Worked for ~3-4 months (before xmas revealed it's delicious head) and was losing ~0.8-1 kg a week while getting faster (both cycling and running) and lifting more, which correlated with the not so accurate day by day but ok for trends Tanita type scales.

Alas, the high protein diet has put a hold on any aspirations towards going vegan as getting the protein without protein shakes is virtually impossible and pea protein tastes like arse to the point I can't really stomach it, and I don't want any more soy in my diet. Might look at rice protein, but I have not heard great things about it.

[CKinnard]

Hmmmm.... calories out > calories in will make you lose weight, but you can/will also lose muscle.

yes you catabolize muscle when on a calorie deficit proportional to the deficit size, but this can be countered by
- avoiding large deficits
- minimizing catabolic pathways (don't do lots of long distance)
- create an anabolic stimulus (eccentric resistance exercise)
- enhanced rest (earlier nights, midday or mid afternoon rest)
- less total stress

It's very possible to cut fat and gain muscle simultaneously, and experience enhanced athletic performance. When Wiggo lost a lot of weight it was at a very slow rate (~0.5-1kg/MONTH!)

weight loss is a physiological stress event, and other life stressors should be minimized during weight loss to prevent a rise in total stress score.

[misterhorsey]

When you go vegan, the Homers only come out if you tell everyone you're vegan.

People you know ask what you are doing when they notice you've lost 15+ Kg or 20% of your body weight. Also I went to a lunch and was specifically asked if I was vegan when she noticed I wasn't eating any meat. Of course, the next question was, "Where do you get your protein?"
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/do-vege ... h-protein/

Thanks Nobody, great video - very amusingly narrated as well!

[CKinnard]

yes the standard retort to the nutritionally illiterate question "where do you get your protein?"
should be

"where do you get your fiber, folate, flavonoids, isoflavones, carotenoids, and retinols from?"

[casual_cyclist]

yes the standard retort to the nutritionally illiterate question "where do you get your protein?"
should be

"where do you get your fiber, folate, flavonoids, isoflavones, carotenoids, and retinols from?"

Fair enough, considering most Australians eat more protein than they actually need (1) it seems like protein should be the least of our worries.

But your retort question worries me because I don't think I am eating nearly enough variety of fruits and vegetables. It was actually an article from Mark's Daily Apple (of all places) that got me thinking about it. Mark said:

If vegetables are to be the base of your diet – and they have to be – get to know every vegetable there is.

Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/veganism ... z3PL9w6Eol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While I have a high consumption of vegetables and some fruit, they really lack variety. I really only regularly eat carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, peas, corn and green beans. Considering the vast array of vegetable available, that's pretty pathetic really. For fruit, my staples are apples and bananas with the rare citrus when in season. That's a pretty poor effort too, although I do eat a lot of raw and cooked tomato.

I need to take something like this to the fruit and veggie shop to remind me to buy a couple of foods of every colour:


EDIT: (1) http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv ... otein?open" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;