Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

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ColinOldnCranky
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Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:30 pm

I am sure that this will be of interest to both sides of the fence.
Headline is
Vegetarians drink and smoke less and exercise more than their meat-eating cousins... but they're not as happy and are more likely to feel depressed and anxious
More at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ssues.html
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby CXCommuter » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:44 pm

Sorry- whole article lost me when it said people who eat meat are carnivorous
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:06 pm

Before concluding Meat=good, Vegetarianism=Bad, diggest Dr Langs comment
'If you think of people that are committed to being a vegetarian it's a fairly significant commitment and it picks up people at the fringe of the obsessive-compulsive spectrum.'
ie Being a vegetarian does not necessarily result in the observed adverse effects. Dr Lang is suggesting that they may be headed that way regardless. ie a correlation between the two rather than a cause-and-effect.

Other than the size of the sampling I have no idea of the credibility of the survey. Maybe others do.

For the record I just had a lunch of carbohydrate and electrolyte - Smiths Crisps, Original flavour. :lol:
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:26 pm

CXCommuter wrote:Sorry- whole article lost me when it said people who eat meat are carnivorous
Commonly held misconception, often IMO perpetuated by the lunatic fringe of the herbivorous humans.

I didn't see any links between x many bananas a day and shameless self promotion... :?
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby Kangzosa » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:30 am

Definition of a carnivore: Meat eater

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby Eleri » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:53 pm

You could recast those results to say "people who have a mental health problem are more likely to become vegetarians than those who don't have a mental health problem" - based on the data given.

But then, I'm a vegetarian, don't smoke, barely drink alcohol and am quite fit. Hadn't noticed a mental health problem in myself but that's a sample size of one.

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby petie » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:11 pm

Kangzosa wrote:Definition of a carnivore: Meat eater
Meat only eater...

Omnivore: meat and plant eater

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby CXCommuter » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:36 pm

petie wrote:
Kangzosa wrote:Definition of a carnivore: Meat eater
Meat only eater...

Omnivore: meat and plant eater
Thank you- Very few humans are carnivores- Eskimos??
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:48 pm

petie wrote:
Kangzosa wrote:Definition of a carnivore: Meat eater
Meat only eater...

Omnivore: meat and plant eater
Spot on, just finished a lovely omnivorous roast chook and vegies dinner :D
See my previous post as to why...
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby march83 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:15 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote: a correlation between the two rather than a cause-and-effect.
this sums up literally every headline report on a scientific study since the dawn of time.

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby Nobody » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:38 pm

Australian Associated Press wrote:Australian vegetarians might be healthier than meat-eaters but they are unhappier and more prone to mental health disorders, new research suggests.
Well of course. They haven't made up their mind yet. They'll probably become happier when they "go the whole hog" (just a figure of speech :oops:) and become a whole-food vegan. :D
Mulger bill wrote:Commonly held misconception, often IMO perpetuated by the lunatic fringe of the herbivorous humans.
Maybe only as a joke, which is what the article is suggesting I believe.
Mulger bill wrote:I didn't see any links between x many bananas a day and shameless self promotion... :?
Seems a bit slow around here lately. Maybe not enough traffic to keep DR interested. He last visited over a month ago.
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby death valley 69 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:19 pm

I think DR has been too busy ; successfully completing the Everest challenge and banging on about power meters on the Adelaide Cyclists forum.

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby CKinnard » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:47 pm

I've been reading vegetarian related science lit for more than 30 years, and the logic trap these researchers fell into catches only the dullest. Where's the discussion that vegetarian/vegan diet is more often than not embarked on as therapy for pre-existing health issues?
i.e. what motivates people to go on extreme diets ? more often than not, a sense of unwellness or disease.

Besides, it's been known for decades that fat people are generally happier than thin.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... essed.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So whose taking that as a recommendation to go pork it on?

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:24 pm

Eleri wrote:You could recast those results to say "people who have a mental health problem are more likely to become vegetarians than those who don't have a mental health problem" - based on the data given.

But then, I'm a vegetarian, don't smoke, barely drink alcohol and am quite fit. Hadn't noticed a mental health problem in myself but that's a sample size of one.
You are obviously barking mad and so it follows that you cannot see that :wink:
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:40 pm

Nobody wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:I didn't see any links between x many bananas a day and shameless self promotion... :?
Seems a bit slow around here lately. Maybe not enough traffic to keep DR interested. He last visited over a month ago.
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I think he may have a case of the runs and cannot get away from the throne in order to plug his laptop in. :mrgreen:
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:40 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
Nobody wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:I didn't see any links between x many bananas a day and shameless self promotion... :?
Seems a bit slow around here lately. Maybe not enough traffic to keep DR interested. He last visited over a month ago.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=23460" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think he may have a case of the runs and cannot get away from the throne in order to plug his laptop in. :mrgreen:
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...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby Kangzosa » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:05 am

petie wrote:
Kangzosa wrote:Definition of a carnivore: Meat eater
Meat only eater...

Omnivore: meat and plant eater
No

A carnivore is not by definition a meat only eater.. Where are you getting your definitions? do you seriously believe that most carnivores, wolves cats etc never chew a bit of grass or even eat some undigested plant foods in the animals they kill? think about it

A carnivore is simply an animal that derives the majority of it's caloric and nutrient requirements from meat.

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby CXCommuter » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:23 am

Kangzosa wrote:
petie wrote:
Kangzosa wrote:Definition of a carnivore: Meat eater
Meat only eater...

Omnivore: meat and plant eater
No

A carnivore is not by definition a meat only eater.. Where are you getting your definitions? do you seriously believe that most carnivores, wolves cats etc never chew a bit of grass or even eat some undigested plant foods in the animals they kill? think about it

A carnivore is simply an animal that derives the majority of it's caloric and nutrient requirements from meat.
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby silentC » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:33 am

Where are you getting your definitions? do you seriously believe that most carnivores, wolves cats etc never chew a bit of grass or even eat some undigested plant foods in the animals they kill? think about it
A carnivore is an organism which derives it's nutrients mainly or exclusively from animal tissue. There are degrees of this, and in one sense a human could be called a carnivore, but they are more properly an omnivore because we derive much of our nutritional intake from other things. Eating meat exclusively will not give you everything you need in your diet and will probably make you sick eventually. There are also characteristics of the digestive system and other physical and behavioural features which define an animal as a carnivore, aside from it's actual diet.

On the other hand, some animals are exclusively (obligate) carnivores, meaning that they obtain everything they need from eating meat. The fact that some of them may incidentally consume vegetable matter does not make them omnivores. For example a cat might eat grass, but it lacks the digestive ability to do anything with it, and in many cases it will induce vomiting. A cat that has eaten something that has made it feel unwell, will eat grass deliberately in order to help throw it up. It gets no nutritional benefit from the grass.

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby kb » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:57 am

".. and in one sense a human could be called a carnivore but they are more properly an omnivore.."

Sounds right to me. Is it a species-level designation? Then you could get the odd-sounding "vegetarian carnivore". :-)
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby silentC » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:03 am

There is a carnivora order to which most carnivores belong, but they are not all carnivores and not all carnivores are carnivora. So there are herbivorous carnivora, like the Giant Panda which eats only vegetation.

This is the problem with rules, there are always exceptions :)
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby CXCommuter » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:38 am

silentC wrote:
Where are you getting your definitions? do you seriously believe that most carnivores, wolves cats etc never chew a bit of grass or even eat some undigested plant foods in the animals they kill? think about it
A carnivore is an organism which derives it's nutrients mainly or exclusively from animal tissue. There are degrees of this, and in one sense a human could be called a carnivore, but they are more properly an omnivore because we derive much of our nutritional intake from other things. Eating meat exclusively will not give you everything you need in your diet and will probably make you sick eventually. There are also characteristics of the digestive system and other physical and behavioural features which define an animal as a carnivore, aside from it's actual diet.

On the other hand, some animals are exclusively (obligate) carnivores, meaning that they obtain everything they need from eating meat. The fact that some of them may incidentally consume vegetable matter does not make them omnivores. For example a cat might eat grass, but it lacks the digestive ability to do anything with it, and in many cases it will induce vomiting. A cat that has eaten something that has made it feel unwell, will eat grass deliberately in order to help throw it up. It gets no nutritional benefit from the grass.

:)
Bold- also applies to vegetarian species- ie cattle (ruminants) and DR's favourite the Ape.
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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:27 am

I've said this before, and I'll repeat it here: vegetarians are the cyclists of the food world. We're all a bunch of tofu eating weirdos.

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby march83 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:32 am

hey BFV, tell me about b12. what do you do to stay on top of it? is it a real issue?

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Re: Diet:Meat or vege? - Swings and roundabouts?

Postby silentC » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:33 am

vegetarians are the cyclists of the food world
Which means if you're a vegetarian cyclist, you are the weirdest of the weird :)

My family doesn't eat that much meat. We're probably 20% meat if that, and mostly chicken or fish. We love our vegies and grow a lot of them at home. I have tried a no-meat diet for a couple of weeks but I just couldn't adapt to it. I was hungry all the time and lacking in energy. I have no doubt that it was because of what we were eating but it's all too hard. And I do love a filet mignon with my roast potatoes :D
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