A double blind trial of acupuncture sounds a lot like pin the tail on the donkey.redsonic wrote:I'd prefer to be convinced by randomised, blinded trials.
Thoughts on Acupuncture
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby find_bruce » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:36 pm
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby Dave-in-LK » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:36 am
Fair point.redsonic wrote:The historical/traditional argument does nothing to convince me. Western doctors were bleeding people for thousands of years, and no, they didn't know what they were doing. I'd prefer to be convinced by randomised, blinded trials.Dave-in-LK wrote:I swear by it ....
The Chinese have being doing their thing for 10,000 years or more, I think they know what they are doing.
Though....
Today's medical model is based on you buying drugs ...drug companies push their product to gps, physios
Acupuncturists aren't pushing a product ...it's a service
Massive difference
Also if an acupuncture sessions doesn't work it rarely does any more damage or have a a side effect ...it just didn't work and you walk out probably feeling the same ....nothing gained but nothing lost.
Drugs whereas have side effects and can cause problems ...kidney and liver problems from using excessive pain killers is common, addiction to them is very common also
On the ten thousand years ......if people didn't think it worked I'm sure they would have been exposed by now
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CXCommuter » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:47 am
The first needle was a pearler (into my glute)- my god it hurt (for a few seconds only and was warned it might) but other than that all was good.
The acupuncture was followed by massage which appeared to be more effective after the needling relaxed/released the muscle
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:14 am
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby lobstermash » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:01 pm
Their service is their product.Dave-in-LK wrote: Acupuncturists aren't pushing a product ...it's a service
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CKinnard » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:18 pm
However, what remains undefined currently are its therapeutic limits.
Would anyone seriously consider undergoing a total knee replacement purely on the analgesic effects of acupuncture?
Would they take their young child suffering from bacterial meningitis to an acupuncturist before a hospital?
What is certain is that for every malady, most people will always prefer a quick and convenient fix, in which they play no role in, or have to change their lifestyle.....but even worse, health care practitioners of all ilks, are too willing to play along with that. When in fact, the truth is over 90% of maladies in western civilization are lifestyle related. Take low back pain. Many people believe their back pain will go away if only they could get their vertebrae cracked proper! And there's no shortage of health carers who will support them in that belief. Some believe a a good crack and a few weeks of exercises and better posture will do the trick. But how many will change their diet and get their bodyfat under 20%?
How many GPs, physios, chiros, osteos push the diet link with low back pain? very very few in my experience. Why? because these carers are blinkered by their paradigm, and think it is someone else's responsibility to raise these things. The role of atherosclerosis as a primary cause of chronic low back pain is growing in quality evidence. It is quite possible that dietary factors may end up being more important than mechanical for a significant % of low back pain.
In such cases, manual therapy would be a waste of time and money, a horrible opportunity cost.
It is the same for acupuncture. THere is a heavy cost for spending good money and time on therapies that are not addressing ultimate causes.
But until our culture matures, and takes responsibility for lifestyle inputs into disease, we are bound to continue to suffer, and blame all but ourselves for doing so....and no doubt there will be health pros who are only too happy to affirm our delusion.
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CXCommuter » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:20 pm
Yes i would agree- my lower back pain is lifestyle related. When I was 25 kg overweight I had no back pain. Now I cycle 300-350km week and have lost the above weight my hip flexors are very tight causing back pain- so I should stop cycling and get fat again as a solution instead of actively managing the issue with any/all resources availableCKinnard wrote:No doubt acupuncture has an effect, some of the time. The science shows that.
However, what remains undefined currently are its therapeutic limits.
Would anyone seriously consider undergoing a total knee replacement purely on the analgesic effects of acupuncture?
Would they take their young child suffering from bacterial meningitis to an acupuncturist before a hospital?
What is certain is that for every malady, most people will always prefer a quick and convenient fix, in which they play no role in, or have to change their lifestyle.....but even worse, health care practitioners of all ilks, are too willing to play along with that. When in fact, the truth is over 90% of maladies in western civilization are lifestyle related. Take low back pain. Many people believe their back pain will go away if only they could get their vertebrae cracked proper! And there's no shortage of health carers who will support them in that belief. Some believe a a good crack and a few weeks of exercises and better posture will do the trick. But how many will change their diet and get their bodyfat under 20%?
How many GPs, physios, chiros, osteos push the diet link with low back pain? very very few in my experience. Why? because these carers are blinkered by their paradigm, and think it is someone else's responsibility to raise these things. The role of atherosclerosis as a primary cause of chronic low back pain is growing in quality evidence. It is quite possible that dietary factors may end up being more important than mechanical for a significant % of low back pain.
In such cases, manual therapy would be a waste of time and money, a horrible opportunity cost.
It is the same for acupuncture. THere is a heavy cost for spending good money and time on therapies that are not addressing ultimate causes.
But until our culture matures, and takes responsibility for lifestyle inputs into disease, we are bound to continue to suffer, and blame all but ourselves for doing so....and no doubt there will be health pros who are only too happy to affirm our delusion.
Not everyone with chronic back pain (example) is fat with a bad diet.
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby Dave-in-LK » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:37 pm
bigfriendlyvegan wrote:Massage has a good scientific basis as a therapy. A good massage therapist or yoga therapist would probably work better.
Yoga is king
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CKinnard » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:37 pm
I'd like to meet the clinician who told you tight hip flexors are the primary cause of chronic low back pain.CXCommuter wrote:Yes i would agree- my lower back pain is lifestyle related. When I was 25 kg overweight I had no back pain. Now I cycle 300-350km week and have lost the above weight my hip flexors are very tight causing back pain- so I should stop cycling and get fat again as a solution instead of actively managing the issue with any/all resources available
Not everyone with chronic back pain (example) is fat with a bad diet.
How long were you grossly overweight? Do you think degenerative disc disease didn't happen during that time?
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CXCommuter » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:50 pm
Where did I say I have chronic lower back pain, and where did I say tight hip flexors are the primary cause of all lower back pain. In my case my Psoas (Illiopsoas) Muscle is pulling on my facet joints causing lower back pain when I don't stretch them enough (So no, nothing to do with discs) when I stretch, the issue does not exist. The identical diagnosis is from 2 physiotherapists in different practices. I gained weight from 70kg (unfit) to 90kg over 5 years. I am now 65 kg an fighting fit.CKinnard wrote:I'd like to meet the clinician who told you tight hip flexors are the primary cause of chronic low back pain.CXCommuter wrote:Yes i would agree- my lower back pain is lifestyle related. When I was 25 kg overweight I had no back pain. Now I cycle 300-350km week and have lost the above weight my hip flexors are very tight causing back pain- so I should stop cycling and get fat again as a solution instead of actively managing the issue with any/all resources available
Not everyone with chronic back pain (example) is fat with a bad diet.
How long were you grossly overweight? Do you think degenerative disc disease didn't happen during that time?
Not sure of your qualifications but there are also more than enough decent websites (dozens actually) that link tight hip flexors with lower back pain (yes I know they are not double blind, triple reviewed papers but I think I see a trend).
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby Dave-in-LK » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:56 pm
Even emotional issues ....
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby Dave-in-LK » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:32 pm
Then use all sorts of drugs to overcome it.
The pain and the PTSD.
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:21 am
Pray tell, why would they not?Mulger bill wrote:I'm sure everybody would but I can't see the Western medical industry ever putting a cent towards unbiased trials.redsonic wrote:I'd prefer to be convinced by randomised, blinded trials.
Please, not a throw away about conspiracies but a rational explanation of why it is in their best interests - ALL of their best interests - to ALL ignore avenues of investigation that may prove fruitful. Every single one of them.
And by "the (big bad) western medical industry" you should extend your net to include those many thousands of researchers not employed by big pharma etc who would do the research anyway because they value the allure of recognition by their peers, nobel prizes and the like highly gratifying.
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:43 am
Can I interest you in buying the Brooklyn Bridge? Only $100 deposit. If I'm scamming you then you can simply not hand over the rest of the $100M. Nothing lost.Dave-in-LK wrote:
Also if an acupuncture sessions doesn't work it rarely does any more damage or have a a side effect ...it just didn't work and you walk out probably feeling the same ....nothing gained but nothing lost.
As you do for your understanding of "product" you have a rather narrow definition of "nothing lost".
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CKinnard » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:47 am
where did I say hip flexors are the primary cause of all lower back pain?CXCommuter wrote:Where did I say I have chronic lower back pain, and where did I say tight hip flexors are the primary cause of all lower back pain. In my case my Psoas (Illiopsoas) Muscle is pulling on my facet joints causing lower back pain when I don't stretch them enough (So no, nothing to do with discs) when I stretch, the issue does not exist. The identical diagnosis is from 2 physiotherapists in different practices. I gained weight from 70kg (unfit) to 90kg over 5 years. I am now 65 kg an fighting fit.
Not sure of your qualifications but there are also more than enough decent websites (dozens actually) that link tight hip flexors with lower back pain (yes I know they are not double blind, triple reviewed papers but I think I see a trend).
anatomically, the psoas muscle is nowhere near the facet joints.
ask your 2 physios to review the origins of psoas and multifidus, and their functional relationships with discs versus facet joints.
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby Dave-in-LK » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:12 am
Seen 50 clients refereed to our acupuncturists ...he's also a qualified physio so he mixes eastern and western togetherColinOldnCranky wrote:Can I interest you in buying the Brooklyn Bridge? Only $100 deposit. If I'm scamming you then you can simply not hand over the rest of the $100M. Nothing lost.Dave-in-LK wrote:
Also if an acupuncture sessions doesn't work it rarely does any more damage or have a a side effect ...it just didn't work and you walk out probably feeling the same ....nothing gained but nothing lost.
As you do for your understanding of "product" you have a rather narrow definition of "nothing lost".
Haven't had anyone complain......he has a 3 week wait to get into him.
It works for many people, so stop being so aggressive mate, it works and people are happy.
Worked for me and my father who had serious motorbike accident ten years ago also.....
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:44 pm
Nevertheless you DO have a narrow definition of nothing lost . I am not sorry to use metaphor to demonstrate the point. However, if you interpret that as aggressive, I suggest that you might avoid riding on the road.Dave-in-LK wrote:Seen 50 clients refereed to our acupuncturists ...he's also a qualified physio so he mixes eastern and western togetherColinOldnCranky wrote:Can I interest you in buying the Brooklyn Bridge? Only $100 deposit. If I'm scamming you then you can simply not hand over the rest of the $100M. Nothing lost.Dave-in-LK wrote:
Also if an acupuncture sessions doesn't work it rarely does any more damage or have a a side effect ...it just didn't work and you walk out probably feeling the same ....nothing gained but nothing lost.
As you do for your understanding of "product" you have a rather narrow definition of "nothing lost".
Haven't had anyone complain......he has a 3 week wait to get into him.
It works for many people, so stop being so aggressive mate, it works and people are happy.
Worked for me and my father who had serious motorbike accident ten years ago also.....
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby Dave-in-LK » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:28 pm
I have sit and listen to medical professionals half my day bang on about medications for this and that ....and think that western medicine is the only answer to all sorts of things.
It works for many ...so does alternative therapies ...we go with what the client wants
However in the last few years we have seen an increase in people wanting the alternatives like yoga, diet changes, exercise, meditation, mindfulness and acupuncture....
As opposed to pain killers and mind altering drugs
Yup they have this place also in many cases .......
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:54 pm
Fair 'nuff. Now lets get back to ridingDave-in-LK wrote:No worries...sorry to bite
I have sit and listen to medical professionals half my day bang on about medications for this and that ....and think that western medicine is the only answer to all sorts of things.
It works for many ...so does alternative therapies ...we go with what the client wants
However in the last few years we have seen an increase in people wanting the alternatives like yoga, diet changes, exercise, meditation, mindfulness and acupuncture....
As opposed to pain killers and mind altering drugs
Yup they have this place also in many cases .......
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CXCommuter » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:03 pm
My fail- Thinking of the my neck injuries (whiplash facet joint injuries- confirmed by MRI).CKinnard wrote:where did I say hip flexors are the primary cause of all lower back pain?CXCommuter wrote:Where did I say I have chronic lower back pain, and where did I say tight hip flexors are the primary cause of all lower back pain. In my case my Psoas (Illiopsoas) Muscle is pulling on my facet joints causing lower back pain when I don't stretch them enough (So no, nothing to do with discs) when I stretch, the issue does not exist. The identical diagnosis is from 2 physiotherapists in different practices. I gained weight from 70kg (unfit) to 90kg over 5 years. I am now 65 kg an fighting fit.
Not sure of your qualifications but there are also more than enough decent websites (dozens actually) that link tight hip flexors with lower back pain (yes I know they are not double blind, triple reviewed papers but I think I see a trend).
anatomically, the psoas muscle is nowhere near the facet joints.
ask your 2 physios to review the origins of psoas and multifidus, and their functional relationships with discs versus facet joints.
Facet joints are not the issue- what the physios have told me (as my biggest concern when having the ongoing lower back pain cramping and pain) was that the injuries where largely related to significant overuse (too much cycling) leading a significantly shorter/tight series of hip flexors with my Iliopsoas being the worst offender). They have indicated on several occasions that a full recovery is anticipated if I can keep the hip flexors straightened and work on my core and Glute strength which are also tight (basically everything and I mean everything below my rib cage is tight).
I am aware there may be longer term disc injury, but I have just returned from 1 week off (due to a work trip) and my back is pain free as everything relaxes from not exercising/recovering, now I just need to keep on top of stretching/strengthening to maintain that.
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby CKinnard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:19 pm
low back pain with riding is thought to be due to a combo of facet jt and disc issues, not so much muscle tightness or fatigue.CXCommuter wrote:My fail- Thinking of the my neck injuries (whiplash facet joint injuries- confirmed by MRI).
Facet joints are not the issue- what the physios have told me (as my biggest concern when having the ongoing lower back pain cramping and pain) was that the injuries where largely related to significant overuse (too much cycling) leading a significantly shorter/tight series of hip flexors with my Iliopsoas being the worst offender). They have indicated on several occasions that a full recovery is anticipated if I can keep the hip flexors straightened and work on my core and Glute strength which are also tight (basically everything and I mean everything below my rib cage is tight).
I am aware there may be longer term disc injury, but I have just returned from 1 week off (due to a work trip) and my back is pain free as everything relaxes from not exercising/recovering, now I just need to keep on top of stretching/strengthening to maintain that.
1. forward flexion of the spine stretches the facet joint capsules in that direction. the joints then glide transversely with pedal action even if you have the seat lower. this tractions obliquely the facet capsules which irritates them. further, facet jt fluid turnover is compromised by sustaining this position, so metabolic waste tends to build, and nutrient and oxygen delivery are compromised. Facet joint movement is more than if the multifidus were strong and not inhibited by facet joint pain. multifidus actually originate very close to the facet capsules and have some fibers that do arise from the capsules. So strengthening multifidus reduces irritation of facet jt capsules.
2. the riding position compromises lumbar discs and vertebral end plates, resulting in miscotrauma and inflammation. Both these can cause acute or chronic pain.
This article goes helps clarify
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2764347/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Low back pain has not been seriously considered primarily muscular pain for several decades. Analogously, chronic tight neck muscles are not a primary cause of ongoing neck pain. Rather, it is the irritated joints and nerves underneath. This is why neck and shoulder massage offers only temporary relief. As a general rule, well vascularized soft tissue does not perpetuate chronic pain. Rather, joints and pain transmitting nerves are the culprits for they are more likely to suffer from higher concentrations of inflammatory cytokines and mechanical irritation.
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Re: Thoughts on Acupuncture
Postby chriscole » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:50 pm
Short short version:CXCommuter wrote:Just had my first acupuncture treatment- the experience itself was a non event- mild discomfort when the needles go in and a mild ongoing ache. Not sure about any impacts to my muscles (it was coupled with massage). Will see later today/tomorrow. I am booked in for another session in a fortnight
Wondering if others have any experiences of acupuncture, i.e possibly ranging from the OMGosh it was the best, to MEH/why bother to OMGosh it was painful and I ended up in Emergency.
1. If you're happy to pay for the placebo effect, go for it. This is not to say that you _shouldn't_, by the way. The placebo effect is a powerful thing, and can have a huge subjective benefit for many people. Just be aware that this is essentially all you're paying for, or getting.
2. Acupuncture is a very safe so-called "complementary or alternative medicine" (CAM) modality. It's theorectically possible to end up with say, a pneumothorax, from injudicious needle placement, but you'd have a better chance of winning Lotto, and usually the worst you can expect might be a localised soft tissue infection, but most practitioners are pretty fastidious about more-or-less-aseptic technique and so raging cellulitis, etc., is not a common problem after receiving acupuncture. This is in contrast to, say, chiropractors who do interestingly violent things to people's necks, which is potentially very dangerous (the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I've had to treat patients with severe disabling injuries secondary to neck vessel injury almost certainly caused by chiropractic manipulation). Acupuncture, in the grand scheme of things, is very benign.
3. If your problem is musculoskeletal / aches & pains, you are more likely to get better bang for your buck from a physiotherapist.
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