energy expenditure: sleeping vs awake but resting?

[zill]

They say the energy expenditure for a sleeper is 0.42 calories/pound/hour. What is the energy expenditure for someone who is awake, sitting comfortably but not asleep?

Would it be twice as much?

[bychosis]

Is that reading a book or watching TV? coz those will burn extra.

I'll get back to you. Lower back issues today, need to lie down and can't move much. I'll just go and get my HRM and power meter...

[zill]

Is that reading a book or watching TV? coz those will burn extra.

I'll get back to you. Lower back issues today, need to lie down and can't move much. I'll just go and get my HRM and power meter...

Good point, let's assume either watching TV or reading since people usually don't just sit awake and idle without doing anything.

[macca33]

Are you on holidays and bored mate??? Honestly, just go for a ride if you have nothing to do...

[kb]

Dunno but I can advise against not sleeping as a weight loss technique!

[zill]

Are you on holidays and bored mate??? Honestly, just go for a ride if you have nothing to do...

Just trying to track my calories with more precision, that's all. It seems the BMR doesn't count the time when you are asleep? Also resting and recovery is a very important part of a cyclist's day.

[g-boaf]

They say the energy expenditure for a sleeper is 0.42 calories/pound/hour. What is the energy expenditure for someone who is awake, sitting comfortably but not asleep?

Would it be twice as much?

forgive me for speaking out of turn, but i think you are overthinking this.

Just ride heaps, get a solid 8 hours sleep each night and if you are hungry- eat. That's about all it takes.

[GAV!N]

Are you on holidays and bored mate??? Honestly, just go for a ride if you have nothing to do...

Also resting and recovery is a very important part of a cyclist's day.

Exactly. So stop spending every second of the day think of the next thread you're going to make on pointless, overthought things that even yellow jersey wearers probably don't even think of. As said above, rest when you need rest, sleep when you need sleep, ride when you can.

[Le Mong]

What is this mythical 8h sleep business....

[Nobody]

They say the energy expenditure for a sleeper is 0.42 calories/pound/hour. What is the energy expenditure for someone who is awake, sitting comfortably but not asleep?

Would it be twice as much?

No, I've heard that sleeping uses more energy that being awake and sitting quietly. So I doubt sitting would even be more than sleeping. That is one reason I try to stand up most of the day.

Just ride heaps, get a solid 8 hours sleep each night and if you are hungry- eat [healthy, whole food]. That's about all it takes.

FTFY. Not everyone has your genetics and/or age and can just eat anything and expect to get down to a light body weight.

[zill]

They say the energy expenditure for a sleeper is 0.42 calories/pound/hour. What is the energy expenditure for someone who is awake, sitting comfortably but not asleep?

Would it be twice as much?

No, I've heard that sleeping uses more energy that being awake and sitting quietly. So I doubt sitting would even be more than sleeping. That is one reason I try to stand up most of the day.

Just ride heaps, get a solid 8 hours sleep each night and if you are hungry- eat [healthy, whole food]. That's about all it takes.

FTFY. Not everyone has your genetics and/or age and can just eat anything and expect to get down to a light body weight.

From looking online, it seems sleep uses less energy than awake but resting. But the difference is almost trivial. For example 5 hours of being awake rather than asleep is the difference in a cup of milk at most.

Surely sitting and awake would use more energy than asleep in bed as the body needs to support more weight for a start.

[CKinnard]

For the sake of estimating TEE (total energy expenditure, for a day), the diff between sleep, lying, sitting, and reading is inconsequential.
Working at a desk, standing, and eating are rated at 1.5x BMR.

Energy expenditure for various activity has been tested by university researchers and accumulated into a Compendium.
Each activity's EE is expressed as a multiple of BMR, known as a Metabolic Equivalent. Though some of these figures were done decades ago, and are quite inaccurate i.e. for cycling. This is why some Garmins (and many diet apps) get their energy expenditure estimate so over the top. They use the Compendium's data to relate energy expenditure for various speeds by bicycle. The Compendium used much heavier and inefficient bikes!

I use a computer program that categorizes client's average weekly activity for each ME, and it is the most reliable and simple way I know of to estimate energy expenditure for the purpose of establishing a Calorie deficit. I have used this for jockeys, models, body builders in lead up to competition, and it has never failed to achieve a goal weight by a particular date.

Nevertheless, if you have a consult with a dietitian, they will not bother with such specific calculations. Rather, they get a general impression of your activity levels, then start you on a dietary intake that roughly achieves a particular Calorie deficit. On your follow up appt, if you have not lost the expected weight, the dietitian simply drops your intake 200-300 Calories/day.

I've never had a client (even those over 50) who has such a 'slow metabolism' that the program overestimates av daily energy expenditure. However, I occasionally get underestimates. i.e. TEE calculated at 2500Cals/day, put onto 500 Cal deficit to lose 0.5kg a week....but the person loses at least 0.75kg/wk) Some people have a greater capacity to burn energy out of anxiety, or sympathetic nerve and endocrine drive. When younger, some of us are capable of overfeeding occasionally and not putting on weight, however this capacity diminishes with age for most.

[zill]

Working at a desk, standing, and eating are rated at 1.5x BMR.

When you say eating, are you also including the thermic effect of food?

Just out of curiosity, how do you explain people who claim that they can "eat whatever and however much they like" but still not gain weight?

Are you in Australia? Which state do you work in?

[CKinnard]

1.
No...eating's rating of 1.5 does not include TEF.
TEF involves digestion, absorption, and storage which goes on for hours after you stop stuffing your face; and is reliably estimated as 10% of daily Calorie intake.

2.
It is well known there is significant variance in the rate some people gain weight when overfeeding. Indeed, I recall in my teens and 20s being able to totally smash the food in and not increase in weight. However, this variance tends to decline with age. This phenomenon is not well elaborated to date, but some established explanations are:

- often smashing food in is a temporary thing, and in the following days, one may actually unconsciously eat less.

- basal metabolic rate varies with % lean tissue as muscle has a higher MR than fat; so two people of the same weight will run at different temperatures. However, the excuse of many people for weight gain that they have a slow metabolism is over used and misunderstood. Generally fatter people are heavier and have more tissue to keep alive, so their overall metabolic rate is higher than when they are slimmer. BMR varies too with women's menstrual cycle so they theoretically could eat more when running hot and not gain weight as much as other times.

- Psychoemotional state varies metabolic rate. If you have a lot of stress, your brain can be more active, you can fidget and move more with less intent, you can hold a lot more tone in your muscles and your senses can be more attuned to what is going on around you as part of hypervigilant fight/flight preparedness.

- variation in efficiency of digestion and absorption. People who overfeed excrete through their bottoms, a variably higher % of ingested Calories, indicating some are more efficient at accessing large amounts of energy from one meal. As we age, this becomes a more significant factor as our digestive capacity degenerates just like all other bodily tissue and systems. Salivary alpha amylase, stomach HCl, pancreatic enzymes, general blood flow and moisture state of the intestines decline with age.

- variation in the food people smash in. higher fat meals will obviously have more energy with a lower TEF, than more balanced meals or high protein meals. Although controversial, the ability to convert excess carbohydrates into fat stores is thought to vary. And 30% of excess carb energy is required for the conversion (compared to about 3% for dietary fat).

- variation in the strength of the endocrine and sympathetic nerve response to eating. In addition to TEF heat, the sympathetic nervous system can stimulate some fat cells to do nothing other than produce heat. This is the same effect that occurs when someone has a hot flush, i.e. women going through menopause or at times during their menstrual cycle, or the heat and nausea associated with shock or fainting. During or soon after smashing in a big meal, you may notice you generate a lot of heat around the neck in particular, which may be accompanied by sweating. This is thought to be sympathetic nerve stimulation of brown adipose tissue (a subgroup of fat cells).

- variation in volume and intensity of activity. You might be aware that higher intensity activity raises your metabolic rate for a long time after stopping exercise. This is to repair damaged tissue and adaptively remodel it.

3.
I live and work in Brisbane, but worked in the USA for a long time.

[zill]

Wow CKinnard, talk about "food for thought"!

variation in efficiency of digestion and absorption. People who overfeed excrete through their bottoms, a variably higher % of ingested Calories, indicating some are more efficient at accessing large amounts of energy from one meal. As we age, this becomes a more significant factor as our digestive capacity degenerates just like all other bodily tissue and systems. Salivary alpha amylase, stomach HCl, pancreatic enzymes, general blood flow and moisture state of the intestines decline with age.

So does that mean calories counting may not work with regards to binge eating? For example, if someone needed 10000 kj per day to maintain weight was to consume all of it in the morning and eat nothing for the rest of the day would excrete comparably more calories than the person who consumes the 10000 kj evenly throughout the day. Hence the person might actually have a calories deficit by having one meal per day?

[CKinnard]

The studies I've read deal more with overfeeding, not one meal per day vs 3 at an isocaloric level.
When you perpetually overfeed, transit time through the intestines is more rapid, because new food intake pushes previous intake along through the 'pipe'. The higher volume of food and reduced transit time reduces opportunity to digest and absorb.

[zill]

The studies I've read deal more with overfeeding, not one meal per day vs 3 at an isocaloric level.
When you perpetually overfeed, transit time through the intestines is more rapid, because new food intake pushes previous intake along through the 'pipe'. The higher volume of food and reduced transit time reduces opportunity to digest and absorb.

Is there really benefit in the 5 2 diet? That is 5 days of normal eating and 2 days of very low caloric intake? What's the main purpose of it? Personally, I hate being very hungry and hate that feeling. How can 2 days of feeling very hungry per week be good for you? Also wouldn't it encourage way overeating on the other days?

[CKinnard]

The benefits of 5:2 are in blood tests, but only if you don't overeat on the '5' days. It's a form of Calorie restriction that is supposed to favor slowing your metabolism and thereby giving you a longevity advantage. The original research showed fasting (eating no food for 4 days every 1-2 months) improved blood tests. But this practice was considered too austere for most, and a few scientists started messing with different variations to see if blood test improvements could be gained with a less harsh regime.

As for feeling hungry two days a week, the point is you eventually adapt to the lower intake...and over time become less inclined to overeat on the 5 days.

My view is for weight loss, it is better to spread the Calorie deficit evenly across 7 days. It's less stressful for organs and biochemical systems.
So the days you exercise more, you eat more. It's all about getting the same Calorie deficit each day.

Underfeeding a couple of days a week isn't as hard as you imagine, especially if you make them rest days and actually get physical rest and mental and emotional calm.

[zill]

The benefits of 5:2 are in blood tests, but only if you don't overeat on the '5' days. It's a form of Calorie restriction that is supposed to favor slowing your metabolism and thereby giving you a longevity advantage. The original research showed fasting (eating no food for 4 days every 1-2 months) improved blood tests. But this practice was considered too austere for most, and a few scientists started messing with different variations to see if blood test improvements could be gained with a less harsh regime.

What is the benefit of having a better blood test? What does having healthier blood mean (e.g the effect) for the person?

Underfeeding a couple of days a week isn't as hard as you imagine, especially if you make them rest days and actually get physical rest and mental and emotional calm.

I find calorie deficits harder on rest days actually, mainly because the mindset is relaxed and not training means more time for yourself and so more time to be tempted. Also rest days tend to be the day after consecutive hard training days so the body probably want nutrients to repair itself?

On hard training days, the temptation is not as high and after a hard session, don't really want to indulge in a lot of food either.

[dalai47]

On hard training days, the temptation is not as high and after a hard session, don't really want to indulge in a lot of food either.

But that is exactly when you need the nutrition! Again talking quality not quantity...

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition ... _nutrition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From "International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: Nutrient timing" - Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2008, 5:17

http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maximization of muscle glycogen re-synthesis

Athletes who ingest 1.5 g CHO/kg body wt. within 30 minutes after exercise have been shown to experience a greater rate of muscle glycogen re-synthesis than when supplementation is delayed by two hours, largely due to a greater sensitivity of muscle to insulin.

Acute changes in amino acid kinetics and protein balance

Regarding post-exercise timing, ingestion of amino acids after resistance exercise has been shown at many different time points to stimulate increases in muscle PRO synthesis, cause minimal changes in PRO breakdown and increase overall PRO balance [74,75,80]. Unfortunately, the optimal time point for supplementation has not yet been demonstrated.*

Conclusion

Daily post-exercise ingestion of a CHO + PRO supplement promotes greater increases in strength and improvements in lean tissue and body fat % during regular resistance training.

*I've often seen withing 1 hour as cited the optimal window to take protien post training.

[zill]

On hard training days, the temptation is not as high and after a hard session, don't really want to indulge in a lot of food either.

But that is exactly when you need the nutrition! Again talking quality not quantity...

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition ... _nutrition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From "International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: Nutrient timing" - Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2008, 5:17

http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maximization of muscle glycogen re-synthesis

Athletes who ingest 1.5 g CHO/kg body wt. within 30 minutes after exercise have been shown to experience a greater rate of muscle glycogen re-synthesis than when supplementation is delayed by two hours, largely due to a greater sensitivity of muscle to insulin.

Acute changes in amino acid kinetics and protein balance

Regarding post-exercise timing, ingestion of amino acids after resistance exercise has been shown at many different time points to stimulate increases in muscle PRO synthesis, cause minimal changes in PRO breakdown and increase overall PRO balance [74,75,80]. Unfortunately, the optimal time point for supplementation has not yet been demonstrated.*

Conclusion

Daily post-exercise ingestion of a CHO + PRO supplement promotes greater increases in strength and improvements in lean tissue and body fat % during regular resistance training.

*I've often seen withing 1 hour as cited the optimal window to take protien post training.

Yes, understand that. These days, I am training from afternoon to evening so will drink some milk first thing after training then wash up and have dinner immediately afterwards (all within the hour after training). Dinner will contain plenty of carbs and protein.

[CKinnard]

Re blood tests, gee Zill, you get bogged down in the detail sometimes and lose sight of the bigger picture
Blood tests indicate various physiological stressors the body is dealing with, and reducing these stressors is implicated in slowing degeneration of tissue and organs. i.e. lipoprotein levels and ratios, inflammatory markers (crp = c-reactive protein), glucose management.
Fasting and not overeating have been shown convincingly to improve these three markers.

Re timing of Calorie deficit, I understand what you are saying. You'll have to use a certain amount of individualization for creating Calorie deficits that you are most comfortable with. i.e. I generally don't have elevated appetite the day after a ride up to 120km. If I did 200k or a hard road race longer than 80km, I'd have done more trauma to my tissue so would benefit from a higher intake of nutrient dense food for several days. Note that's nutrient dense food, not energy dense. Fatty acids are your primary energy substrate at rest and with lighter exercise, and everyone has heaps of energy stores in bodyfat. In fact, you could argue that feeding heavily on energy dense foods the day after heavy exercise will direct energy towards digestion and absorption, away from repair and anabolic adaptation.

The truth is, most of us overeat and mistake fatigue for a need for increased energy intake. The fatigue is more a sign your adrenal glands and sympathetic nerves, and higher CNS function is sluggish, rather than you being short on energy reserves. If you get really wiped out after a longer or more intense training session, the question has to be asked whether you are ramping up your training too quickly, whether you know how to rest properly, whether total stress and energy demands are too high, whether your diet is adequately nutrient dense, whether you have some underlying health issue, whether your expectations are unrealistic i.e. some people compare themselves too much to others who might just be better endowed genetically. I have been guilty of this myself. I wonder why I can't go and ride 200+km and 4000metres, then go to work the next day feeling reasonably fresh, like some guys I know. The point is 99.9% of the population couldn't! Most don't realize, but fatigue is not well understood by science. The most overwhelmingly fatigue can often lift with just 10-15 minutes of shut eye. Chronic fatigue can remain the same day after day no matter what one eats, how much sleep/rest they get. Chemotherapy can bring on deep fatigue but the mechanism is not well understood.

You seem to want absolutist answers for your questions, and that's often not possible. It's often a matter of leaning more in one direction or another, and living with some uncertainty. i.e. Vegans are by definition very rigid in their beliefs and diet. However, I doubt it very very much whether eating 100-200 grams of lean free range animal flesh every week would significantly adversely effect an otherwise strict vegan's long term health...and in some instances, it may reduce some risk factors associated with eating 100% plants. And I'd posit that a vegan who habitually overeats and is significantly overweight, would negate many of the benefits of a plant based diet!

Another issue seeking detailed answers to the n-th degree is you then often neglect other factors that are more important towards reaching your goals. i.e. the meaning of life, happiness, and peak athletic potential will never be just about the food you eat and training programs. Healthy family and social relationships, personal and professional growth, job and material security no doubt are very very important.

[zill]

Re blood tests, gee Zill, you get bogged down in the detail sometimes and lose sight of the bigger picture
Blood tests indicate various physiological stressors the body is dealing with, and reducing these stressors is implicated in slowing degeneration of tissue and organs. i.e. lipoprotein levels and ratios, inflammatory markers (crp = c-reactive protein), glucose management.
Fasting and not overeating have been shown convincingly to improve these three markers.

Re timing of Calorie deficit, I understand what you are saying. You'll have to use a certain amount of individualization for creating Calorie deficits that you are most comfortable with. i.e. I generally don't have elevated appetite the day after a ride up to 120km. If I did 200k or a hard road race longer than 80km, I'd have done more trauma to my tissue so would benefit from a higher intake of nutrient dense food for several days. Note that's nutrient dense food, not energy dense. Fatty acids are your primary energy substrate at rest and with lighter exercise, and everyone has heaps of energy stores in bodyfat. In fact, you could argue that feeding heavily on energy dense foods the day after heavy exercise will direct energy towards digestion and absorption, away from repair and anabolic adaptation.

The truth is, most of us overeat and mistake fatigue for a need for increased energy intake. The fatigue is more a sign your adrenal glands and sympathetic nerves, and higher CNS function is sluggish, rather than you being short on energy reserves. If you get really wiped out after a longer or more intense training session, the question has to be asked whether you are ramping up your training too quickly, whether you know how to rest properly, whether total stress and energy demands are too high, whether your diet is adequately nutrient dense, whether you have some underlying health issue, whether your expectations are unrealistic i.e. some people compare themselves too much to others who might just be better endowed genetically. I have been guilty of this myself. I wonder why I can't go and ride 200+km and 4000metres, then go to work the next day feeling reasonably fresh, like some guys I know. The point is 99.9% of the population couldn't! Most don't realize, but fatigue is not well understood by science. The most overwhelmingly fatigue can often lift with just 10-15 minutes of shut eye. Chronic fatigue can remain the same day after day no matter what one eats, how much sleep/rest they get. Chemotherapy can bring on deep fatigue but the mechanism is not well understood.

You seem to want absolutist answers for your questions, and that's often not possible. It's often a matter of leaning more in one direction or another, and living with some uncertainty. i.e. Vegans are by definition very rigid in their beliefs and diet. However, I doubt it very very much whether eating 100-200 grams of lean free range animal flesh every week would significantly adversely effect an otherwise strict vegan's long term health...and in some instances, it may reduce some risk factors associated with eating 100% plants. And I'd posit that a vegan who habitually overeats and is significantly overweight, would negate many of the benefits of a plant based diet!

Another issue seeking detailed answers to the n-th degree is you then often neglect other factors that are more important towards reaching your goals. i.e. the meaning of life, happiness, and peak athletic potential will never be just about the food you eat and training programs. Healthy family and social relationships, personal and professional growth, job and material security no doubt are very very important.

Thanks a lot for your expertise. My lack of knowledge in this area probably have led me to ask these "simplistic" questions. I'm just starting to get on the right track in terms of nutrition and saying goodbye to my bad habits (which I have had my whole life). It would be a big goal in itself to be able to live extremely healthily even if I wasn't cycling. But cycling is definitely the big motivator here.

[CKinnard]

well don't let me or anyone else put you off being curious Zill. I can actually see the logic in your thought processes and questions...and think it is great that you are aspiring towards healthier living and that cycling is your main motivator. It has been mine too at difficult times through life.

I am just giving you a nudge towards a more rewarding perspective - don't use cycling or food as an obsession to avoid other areas of life that are very very important components of the pursuit of health, wealth,and happiness.

If you've never read or listened to top motivational speakers, Stephen Covey is a good place to start.

http://youtu.be/ACukmJ_5HSo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://youtu.be/eOpKziGrxSE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Nobody]

Vegans are by definition very rigid in their beliefs and diet. However, I doubt it very very much whether eating 100-200 grams of lean free range animal flesh every week would significantly adversely effect an otherwise strict vegan's long term health...

Depends on your genetics primarily. The problem with the attitude of a little does no harm, is that many don't know they have the wrong genetics for eating animal products until it's too late and they already have advanced atherosclerosis, among other diet related chronic diseases.

...and in some instances, it may reduce some risk factors associated with eating 100% plants.

Other than B12 which all vegans should be supplementing for, unless they know their levels are tested good, what other factors should we be looking out for?